Whitecaps 2016

[Soccerpro]

Get rid of Pedro Morales and spend money on an actual proven goal scorer (Yeah right Vancouver!) and there is half the battle.

Although I can't explain why Waston sucks so bad this year.

[BearcatSA]

On August 7, 2016 at 4:17 PM, BearcatSA said:

The one thing I haven't touched on is the lack of on-field leadership.  How is Morales the captain of this team?  Is it because he's bilingual?  They need a holler guy out there to get some many of these guys' heads in the game and out of their a*sses.  Like I said, this stretch of road matches was going to be tough but in too many other games there seems to be either a country club atmosphere or "me" guys looking out for personal interests, even when the team has the lead, such as with the earlier home match vs the Rapids or the Vs Cup final second leg.  

During the TSN broadcast both Perry Solkowski and Nick Dasovic touched on the on-field leadership problem this season (it was fluky that I caught it because I don't normally listen to the broadcast, just watch).  Perhaps next season Edgar (who both commentators alluded to as being that guy for the job) can change that. 

[nolando]

3 hours ago, Soccerpro said:

Get rid of Pedro Morales and spend money on an actual proven goal scorer (Yeah right Vancouver!) and there is half the battle.

Although I can't explain why Waston sucks so bad this year.

I've always felt this way about Morales. Cancer to have that much money and hope wrapped up in one talented yet fragile, frustrating, and largely ineffective player. And then to give him the armband on top of all that...

Waston is an enigma. Did anyone else notice he started for Costa Rica? So it's not like he's a bum but, yeah, he and Laba have been curious in their lack of dependability after usually being such rocks in previous incarnations.

Can we please stop to Hurtado experiment now? Can we finally say it's done and dusted and will never come to fruition?

What a bust of a season. I think Jeff's right; time to seriously consider a change in leadership before this club gets run right into the ground. Still tonnes of good working parts and promising youth. Let's go in a different direction.

[BearcatSA]

9 hours ago, nolando said:

Waston is an enigma. Did anyone else notice he started for Costa Rica? So it's not like he's a bum but, yeah, he and Laba have been curious in their lack of dependability after usually being such rocks in previous incarnations.

I had a chance a couple of weeks ago to listen to the the Caps' post game show (I think David Norman's on it) and they discussed how early in the season both players were getting called for a lot of fouls that last year the refs had been letting go last season and this might have been a factor in their performances.  Honestly, I just don't buy that.

[Soccerpro]

9 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

I had a chance a couple of weeks ago to listen to the the Caps' post game show (I think David Norman's on it) and they discussed how early in the season both players were getting called for a lot of fouls that last year the refs had been letting go last season and this might have been a factor in their performances.  Honestly, I just don't buy that.

That is excuse making for their poor play. 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

Am I the only one here who thinks that Hurtado actually had a hell of a game despite being utterly and completely snakebitten?

Dunno about you guys, but I've been striker before, and sometimes you just overthink it.  His finishing was off, but ffs, he created a metric f-tonne of chances.  If he can play like that and exercise the demons, who knows.  Maybe we'll finally have a legit striker.

I know I'm gonna get roasted, but at least he created chances.  It's more frustrating to watch, for sure, but i'll take a striker having an off day but putting in the work over one who doesn't even make the chances to miss any day of the week.  

[Northvansteve]

54 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

Am I the only one here who thinks that Hurtado actually had a hell of a game despite being utterly and completely snakebitten?

Dunno about you guys, but I've been striker before, and sometimes you just overthink it.  His finishing was off, but ffs, he created a metric f-tonne of chances.  If he can play like that and exercise the demons, who knows.  Maybe we'll finally have a legit striker.

I know I'm gonna get roasted, but at least he created chances.  It's more frustrating to watch, for sure, but i'll take a striker having an off day but putting in the work over one who doesn't even make the chances to miss any day of the week.  

That game will be a legend for the sheer volume of misses, but.... you have to give him credit for his incredible work rate (compared to, say, Morales?) and the fact that many of those chances were created by Hurtado's speed and moves. 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

2 hours ago, Northvansteve said:

That game will be a legend for the sheer volume of misses, but.... you have to give him credit for his incredible work rate (compared to, say, Morales?) and the fact that many of those chances were created by Hurtado's speed and moves. 

Basically.  Like he literally did it all except finish.  I've played striker for a long time, sometimes it's just not your night.  Squeezing the stick they call it in hockey.  Not sure if I know the phrase for soccer.  Shitting the bed?

Honestly, I say give the guy more starts and see if he can't burst the bubble.  At least he seems to give a shit

[Dub Narcotic]

The problem is that we have a big enough sample size on Hurtado now to say that this is who he is. His technical ability is just shocking. For another player you would argue that his goals will eventually hit his expected goals but expected goals is calculated in relation to the finishing ability of the whole league and Hurtado is just not on the same level as the average MLS striker. If he was younger there would be some hope but he's been this way since he got in the league and he should be in his prime years now.

It's too bad because he does have a good work rate, excellent athleticism, and has improved on his hold-up play and his tactical understanding as well. His role is MLS is as a bench forward, to bring energy and chaos when a team is behind. However, much like Mattocks, I think he also needs to go somewhere else in the league where the weight of expectations isn't always crushing him.

[TRM]

Like Rivero before him, Hurtado is doing all the things a forward should do except score. It wouldn't be so bad if he at least hit the target but he is making the keeper's life way too easy. At least he is much cheaper than Rivero. 900k for Rivero vs 120k for Hurtado. I think Erik's development in his play was the reason Rivero was let go.

Hurtado needs to stop shooting unless he is 1v1 with the keeper and can side foot the shot. Hold up and hit the second or third wave with passes. For this to work we really need someone else up top or close by, like Barnes or Manneh, and therein lies the problem. We just don't play much other than the 4-5-1 in which Hurtado is all alone. He and Manneh worked great against TFC in the 4-4-1-1 so it can be done.

 

[The Beaver]

16 hours ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

Am I the only one here who thinks that Hurtado actually had a hell of a game despite being utterly and completely snakebitten?

Dunno about you guys, but I've been striker before, and sometimes you just overthink it.  His finishing was off, but ffs, he created a metric f-tonne of chances.  If he can play like that and exercise the demons, who knows.  Maybe we'll finally have a legit striker.

I know I'm gonna get roasted, but at least he created chances.  It's more frustrating to watch, for sure, but i'll take a striker having an off day but putting in the work over one who doesn't even make the chances to miss any day of the week.  

No, I totally agree with you, that he did very well to create many of his chances, and the very fact that he was willing to make the runs he made--along with some good balls out of midfield--made a huge difference.  But, like Rivero, he is doing everything a good striker needs to do EXCEPT finish.  We had a dominant first half--all around--and had we notched at least one goal we could have maintained dominance the rest of the game.  We need somebody who can finish!!  But until we find that guy--he does not exist on the bench, I'm afraid--I would keep going with Hurtado up front. At least till the end of this season. He's got to notch a few yet, no? 

Pedro has been poor for over a year now. Like the guy, and he can be brilliant, but he is not sponge-worthy anymore. We need to use our DP dollars more effectively.  We need an attacking mid and we need a striker, both DPs, who can really make a difference. And we need ownership to pay a bit more to get these guys. Certainly the finances cannot be too too bad, what with several years of terrific attendance.

 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

What about this.  Maybe he just isn't a striker?  Like really if we take finishing out of the game, did he not have a good game?  Transplant his game into midfield somewhere... wing maybe?  I dunno I don't think you want to get rid of this guy. 

And personally I always found Rivero to be a bit on the ... well maybe lazy is the wrong word, but I just didn't find he put in the consistent work that I saw from Hurtado last game.  

Seriously, why not try him on the wing?  

I agree we need someone who can consistently finish, but we also need people who create chaos and chances too.  There have been games where the whitecaps could have had the best finisher in the world and it wouldn't have mattered because they didn't create enough going forward.

Edit: and maybe I'm just getting older, but to me 25 isn't old yet.  There are such a thing as late bloomers(Vardy anyone).  

I'm not saying just give him endless kicks at the can, but if no one else is playing well i think he deserves a shot.  

[nolando]

4 hours ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

What about this.  Maybe he just isn't a striker?  Like really if we take finishing out of the game, did he not have a good game?  Transplant his game into midfield somewhere... wing maybe?  I dunno I don't think you want to get rid of this guy. 

And personally I always found Rivero to be a bit on the ... well maybe lazy is the wrong word, but I just didn't find he put in the consistent work that I saw from Hurtado last game.  

Seriously, why not try him on the wing? 

I don't think so. A winger has to cross well in the air and pass well on the ground. Techera and co. looked so angry at him a few times last game because of his lack of skill in this department as well.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

Man, okay not wing.  but ffs the guy has heart.  You can just tell.  He cares too much.  I want him on my team.

[shermanator]

Heart doesn't mean a damn thing if he doesn't put goals in the net. That's what a forward is paid to do. You may want Hurtado on the Whitecaps, but I can't think of anyone else who does.

[Northvansteve]

On 9/5/2016 at 9:01 AM, TRM said:

Hurtado needs to stop shooting unless he is 1v1 with the keeper and can side foot the shot. Hold up and hit the second or third wave with passes. For this to work we really need someone else up top or close by, like Barnes or Manneh, and therein lies the problem. We just don't play much other than the 4-5-1 in which Hurtado is all alone. He and Manneh worked great against TFC in the 4-4-1-1 so it can be done.

 

The Whitecaps are colossally wasteful with their chances around the 18. They always look to shoot the ball no matter where they are - Techera is the worse culprit. You never see them working a 1-2 around the box, or laying it back to an oncoming mid. So frustrating to watch.

[TRM]

OMG what a gong show but we are winning 3-1 in injury time. First Russ makes a cross into the box and the defender heads it back to his keeper and right into his own net. Then Russ goes out with an injury at the 55 minute mark and Jacobson comes in and scores. Just totally rub salt in the Crew wound Erik "I can't his the freaking net" Hurtado comes on as a sub and .... SCORES.

ROTFLMAO.

Game over and we get 3 badly needed points with a 3-1 win. Totally dominated in almost every category but we win. Possession 64/36, corners 7/3, duels won 43/30, shots 15/9, passing 79/65, passing final third 68/38.

The two areas we were better were is shots on goal (3/15 vs 4/9) and crosses 27/67 for us. Let me say that again: SOG 3/15 for the Crew and we were 4/9. Yes they were worse than us!!!!!

[Unnamed Trialist]

What is so contradictory about our doing well in Concacaf Champions is that the team came out at the start saying the competition was not important, they had other priorities, the league this and that. They played the subs for many games and the subs responded well, in fact in every match they have (Richey last night, Seiler). And they acted like surprised, downplaying the good efforts.

We are like accidently walking into success, but still, the mentality of the FO is so poor. Why would you renounce a competition like that, verbally, talk it down, let everyone know it was not a priority for the club, let the subs think they were being put into the lower priority competition. WC have never come out enthusiastically saying they want to play quarter final knock-outs of the Champions or win the competition if it were possible: why not? What is wrong with wanting to win a competition you qualified for?

As is, we are now 6 games from the final. Anyone know how they determine the draw for quarters, what is the criteria? Is it a pure draw for all group stage winners? Or do they still separate Mexican teams to favour them?

[Unnamed Trialist]

Here is the regulation on the draws for quarter finals. 

http://www.concacaf.com/category/champions-league/regulations

Teams from the same member association can play each other, so that there is nothing stopping a Mexican team to play another.

All group stage winners will be ranked 1-8  based on point totals in group, and the top four will get the second leg at home in quarters. It looks like we have this almost assured. If we beat Central our last game this is solved. This ranking is retained throught the knock-out stage, meaning in semis, if you win pairing 1-8, you'd play the winner of pairing 4-5, winning pairing 2-7 would play pairing 3-6.

1-8, 2-7, 3-6, 4-5 are the pairings. It does not say what happens if teams are tied on points, say if Pachuca and Caps both get 12 points in their respective groups.

Right now we are tops, along with Pachuca.

http://www.concacaf.com/category/champions-league/schedule-results

It looks like Pumas and Tigres should also be amongst teams with most points. So we would for sure avoid at least 3 of the 4 Mexican teams in quarters. The only one we could see is Monterey, depending on how they do vs. Arabe Unido in the rest of the matches, group D. We should be betting on Arabe Unido to knock out the Mexicans to ease a possible quarters, they play tonight.

So our likely pairing would be either of those Group D teams, Dallas or Suchitipequez from H, Red Bulls or Alianza from F, Saprissa or Timbers from B. 

Quarters to be played last week of Feb, away, first week of March at BC Place.

[TRM]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

What is so contradictory about our doing well in Concacaf Champions is that the team came out at the start saying the competition was not important, they had other priorities, the league this and that. They played the subs for many games and the subs responded well, in fact in every match they have (Richey last night, Seiler). And they acted like surprised, downplaying the good efforts.

We are like accidently walking into success, but still, the mentality of the FO is so poor. Why would you renounce a competition like that, verbally, talk it down, let everyone know it was not a priority for the club, let the subs think they were being put into the lower priority competition. WC have never come out enthusiastically saying they want to play quarter final knock-outs of the Champions or win the competition if it were possible: why not? What is wrong with wanting to win a competition you qualified for?

As is, we are now 6 games from the final. Anyone know how they determine the draw for quarters, what is the criteria? Is it a pure draw for all group stage winners? Or do they still separate Mexican teams to favour them?

I've heard Robo say that he always wants to "win every game regardless of the competition". The FO should probably STFU on the subject. The players take it seriously because this is their chance to show the coach they are ready for MLS. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

9 hours ago, TRM said:

I've heard Robo say that he always wants to "win every game regardless of the competition". The FO should probably STFU on the subject. The players take it seriously because this is their chance to show the coach they are ready for MLS. 

I was impressed that Robbo actually put out a team of starters with the exception of Richey and Seiler, basically, good for him. But he has contradicted himself again and again on this.

That was not what he was saying when we played our first match vs. Central, he too downplayed that match verbally. As he has done with the V-Cup. Frankly, if you have a chance to win silverware, play your best players. 

And if you want to rotate, fine, then do it. But communicating however indirectly to your players that you think they are not that good and get the scrub games, that is unwise. Just say you believe in all of them and those you put on are required to win. 

Vs. Central at home the game is in fact crucial, it could decide a better quarter final pairing for us.

[toontownman]

38 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I was impressed that Robbo actually put out a team of starters with the exception of Richey and Seiler, basically, good for him. But he has contradicted himself again and again on this.

That was not what he was saying when we played our first match vs. Central, he too downplayed that match verbally. As he has done with the V-Cup. Frankly, if you have a chance to win silverware, play your best players. 

And if you want to rotate, fine, then do it. But communicating however indirectly to your players that you think they are not that good and get the scrub games, that is unwise. Just say you believe in all of them and those you put on are required to win. 

Vs. Central at home the game is in fact crucial, it could decide a better quarter final pairing for us.

I think the priority has likely changed given the playoff chances all but done. CCL is a huge opportunity to save some face. 

[The Beaver]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I was impressed that Robbo actually put out a team of starters with the exception of Richey and Seiler, basically, good for him. But he has contradicted himself again and again on this.

That was not what he was saying when we played our first match vs. Central, he too downplayed that match verbally. As he has done with the V-Cup. Frankly, if you have a chance to win silverware, play your best players. 

And if you want to rotate, fine, then do it. But communicating however indirectly to your players that you think they are not that good and get the scrub games, that is unwise. Just say you believe in all of them and those you put on are required to win. 

Vs. Central at home the game is in fact crucial, it could decide a better quarter final pairing for us.

While I agree that Robbo's actions--i.e. in terms of the players he starts for these "lesser" competitions--belies his real intent for these games, I think it is unfair to say that he at all verbally downplays any of these matches. I've watched all his interviews, and he is damned consistent about saying that it is about the squad, not just the 11 that start most games.  And in that respect, one has to admit that the Caps' squad is certainly stronger than SKC's. In fact, it is probably stronger than almost every squad in MLS (except maybe Dallas'). The key difference between the Caps and the top teams is that we don't have any of those game-changing elite players, guys like Giovinco and Villa and Keane et al.  Credit to Robbo for building a deep squad.  But I think we all agree that we need an elite finisher and an elite general in the midfield. Love Pedro, but he ain't the general, and we all know that we do not have a killer up front.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I stand by my opinion that Robbo should have been fired in August, that would have given us a turn in play or least a shake-up. These last 2 months have been pathetic, apart from the exception of ConcaChampions, which is something we got without intending to. 

Last night the commentary from the Seattle announcers was very damning, I think they were dead right. We have no attacking system at all, we rely on flicks and hail marys and other tricks when in close, and execute the final metres terribly, with no idea of what would be a good attacking choice. And we improvise.

The WC have been without a coach for two months, he resigned but strolls about on the sidelines with those cut slightly sad blue eyes, hands in his pockets, saying nothing, doing nothing. Throwing on Davies so he has this excuse to say, hey, he's just 15, which is ridiculous, putting your hopes on a kid to solve a game late, so cowardly on the part of Robbo and terribly unfair to Alphonso. And the rest of the squad.

I would have changed coaches, and hoped for a new coach to be benching Ousted, who has actually had worse performances than Tornaghi when he's played this year. Or are there no consequences for poor performances at WCFC?

[Dub Narcotic]

@Unnamed Trialist I think you are spot on with a most of this. The systemic problems haven been there since Robinson started and he's been using the 'playing with young players' excuse as a crutch since he started despite having no actual plan to develop a youthful squad.