Canadians in MLS 2016 Season

[Bison44]

You are missing the point here TRM.  Obviously the best player should play, but with young talent who can say exactly where the potential ceiling might be unless you play them.  To use Hamilton as an example, this year he would still be stapled to the bench if TFC had not dumped Findley, Gomez, Luke Moore etc.  Management made the decision to go lean and young upfront and to give Babouli, Endoh Hamilton some chances, hoping that 1 of them would show them something.  

What drives us crazy is when our teams pick up guys like Jacobson, who drive all our young mids down the depth chart and we all think that a academy product could probably do just as well in a similar role if given the chance.  Or at least the difference is small enough that it doesnt warrant the team picking up a late 20's american or south american.  Vancouver has Kreig and Haber playing well in USL already.  I guess Robbo figures they are not ready.

[C2SKI]

2 hours ago, El Hombre said:

The problem with this argument is that you have no idea who is "MLS-ready" (not trying to be a dick because I don't either), unless you give players a chance.  Look at Jordan Hamilton.  Earlier this year, he had been stapled to the bench for TFC II in favour of a 16 year-old.  He looked like he was destined to flame out like so many before him until he was given a shot with the big team.  Now he looks like the number one striking option off the bench.  Not too bad for a 20 year old.

Same goes with Chapman.  He was no great shakes with TFC II earlier this year, but he's been a serviceable utility player for the big team.

You touting Larin as being able to show what it takes is a bit of a laugh as well, and speaks to exactly what I am saying.  Last year Larin had an abysmal U20 tournament (for his skill) and was fourth string for Orlando.  He would've stayed there had there not been a rash of injuries and he was given his shot, which he took.  He's been amazing there, but looking back he still needed a chance to show what he could do.  He definitely didn't win that spot in training, he won it on game days.  The fact that his great form stunted Honduran wonderkind Rochez's development is an added bonus.

The fact is, you don't know how good these kids are until you give them a shot.  That is the problem with Vancouver and it's not going to go away so long as they keep signing 28/29/30 year olds.

Also, it's hard to consider V-Cup games a shot when you are throwing 5 or 6 of them into the deep end all at the same time.  No one's going to look good in that situation.

Exactly mate! I've been telling my boss this for years, but still he won't give me a promotion.

[BearcatSA]

14 hours ago, TRM said:

I, like some others here, feel it is more the absence of Gersh in the middle that has caused our decline in goals against. I was a huge fan of his so I'm horribly biased but his departure has coincided with our defensive woes.

I've argued this since the early season, but you can also throw in Beitashour's absence as well.  But what I have also noticed throughout this season is how they don't get much consistent defensive support from the other midfielders apart from the two holding mids.  As a whole team, they don't defend well, so it's not just a couple of weak links.

 

[TRM]

37 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

You are missing the point here TRM.  Obviously the best player should play, but with young talent who can say exactly where the potential ceiling might be unless you play them.  To use Hamilton as an example, this year he would still be stapled to the bench if TFC had not dumped Findley, Gomez, Luke Moore etc.  Management made the decision to go lean and young upfront and to give Babouli, Endoh Hamilton some chances, hoping that 1 of them would show them something.  

What drives us crazy is when our teams pick up guys like Jacobson, who drive all our young mids down the depth chart and we all think that a academy product could probably do just as well in a similar role if given the chance.  Or at least the difference is small enough that it doesnt warrant the team picking up a late 20's american or south american.  Vancouver has Kreig and Haber playing well in USL already.  I guess Robbo figures they are not ready.

Hamilton was backup to Altidore. Injury opportunity arose and he took it. Good on him. In a salary cap league Hamilton had a bunch of advantages over the others who were cut. He was homegrown (I think) and much cheaper.

Jacobson was backup for Russ once they got rid of Gersh. Injury opportunity again. I think having some older vets brought in is the best way to go. The players coming up know the 30+ crowd will be gone in a few years but they still have something to measure themselves against and learn from. The academy players have an advantage because the coach watches every game. Mostly in person live. He knows their strengths and weaknesses.

There will always be a parade of players trying to take your job. Vets, draft picks, free agents and other academy players. How do you think Bustos feels seeing Alphonso play in MLS as well as he has in his limited minutes? If you were the coach who would you call up next opening?

[jonovision]

32 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

I've argued this since the early season, but you can also throw in Beitashour's absence as well.  But what I have also noticed throughout this season is how they don't get much consistent defensive support from the other midfielders apart from the two holding mids.  As a whole team, they don't defend well, so it's not just a couple of weak links.

 

No Gersh, no Beita, I think Teibert's injury hurts them in this regard as well. When Morales plays deep they are especially vulnerable.

[Obinna]

I think there are a lot of frustrated people, because obviously talented players like Bustos, Froese etc. have not been able to establish themselves as regulars. Chapman, Babouli and Hamilton have all looked great in my opinion this season, but if you were to ask me which team had the more skillful crop of youngsters, I would have said Vancouver no question. Yet here we are - Babouli, Chapman and Hamilton have all become regulars, with the latter two even featuring in the MLS Homegrown game. Who'd have thunk it!? 

It's complicated in Vancouver and a lot of good points have been made in this discussion.

As I see it, Vancouver just has far greater depth than Toronto - that is the difference. TFC has been forced to use Chapman, Babouli, Hamilton (and others) due to an injury crisis. Meanwhile in Vancouver, you have very healthy depth with Mezquida, Morales, Manneh, Techera, Bolanos, Laba and Jacobson. Look how many players need to succumb to injury for Bustos, Froese and even Teibert to get a look on the regular!

There is just a lot of competition in Vancouver at the moment. You can't really blame them for bringing in a player like Jacobson, it's just frustrating to see the club bring in player after player (unless it's a Canadian because we are all biased  )

 

[farrelld]

As an Impact fan I have no idea how Vancouver gets so much criticism for its Canadian player situation. Montreal barely has 3 players at or near MLS level and of the 3 Bekker has the most minutes. 

[BearcatSA]

2 hours ago, jonovision said:

No Gersh, no Beita, I think Teibert's injury hurts them in this regard as well. When Morales plays deep they are especially vulnerable.

Now, keeping things in perspective, the odds of them getting a result in Dallas were very long, indeed.  My comments about their defensive play is based on what I've watched at home or in less oppressive weather road matches.

[nolbertos]

I think impatience is what the Voyageurs do and say "Vancouver hates Canadian players". Obinna had it right that Robbo is trying to get a competitive team product on the field and the Canadian aren't cutting it. Froese, Bustos, Adekugbe, etc were given minutes last season and this season to prove themselves and none have take their opportunity to shine, except Alphonso Davies.  The football world is cut throat, but Robbo has been willing to give the kids a shot, and so far he's not impressed on how they're responding here,  hence why Asekugbe's been loaned to England and Froese also maybe loaned out too.  I think Robbo is trying to tell the academy kids that they shouldn't feel happy to be just playing in the USL. I feel like some academy kids, don't feel the sense of urgency to take their chances and showcase what they have.  Any other club around the world would've cut their academy players for not stepping up. I believe the Whitecaps can only do so much before saying "We tried" and give up and cut the player.  With no CPL to latch on, maybe those players can find a scholarship in the NCAA like KlaZura did and get a degree.  Not everybody is cut out to be a pro.

[BearcatSA]

16 minutes ago, farrelld said:

As an Impact fan I have no idea how Vancouver gets so much criticism for its Canadian player situation. Montreal barely has 3 players at or near MLS level and of the 3 Bekker has the most minutes. 

With Bernardello back in the fold and Donadel healthy, Bekker might see even fewer minutes down the stretch.

[davey_twelve]

Of the top 5 goal scorers in the league right now, Larin is the only non DP and is 8 years younger than the next youngest (Giovinco). I imagine he's getting lots of looks from abroad. 

[Bison44]

This isnt a Whitecap thing, all 3 MLS teams do it.  But personally I give Impact a little more credit as they have played CDN, almost twice as much as VAN, and I dont think they have as good CDN players to trot out, and I dont think they have as good prospects in USL to call up.  And they are having a better season than Vancouver..so you can have your cake and eat it too sometimes.  And Hamilton was not a back up to Altidore, they had to shit can 3 other guys from last year before he moved up to a regular bench spot.  

My main point with Jacobson (in particular) is that VAN brought extra bodies in at midfield..so that they wouldnt have to play Froese, Bustos Mckendry and Levis etc.  To me that is dissapointing that there is alot of young CDN talent there and Robbo and Company didnt think enough of them to at least give them a shot as squad depth kind of player.  

[TRM]

2 hours ago, davey_twelve said:

Of the top 5 goal scorers in the league right now, Larin is the only non DP and is 8 years younger than the next youngest (Giovinco). I imagine he's getting lots of looks from abroad. 

Plus no PKs and look at his most impressive stat (imho) goals vs shots. Freakishly good at the club level.

[TRM]

5 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

I've argued this since the early season, but you can also throw in Beitashour's absence as well.  But what I have also noticed throughout this season is how they don't get much consistent defensive support from the other midfielders apart from the two holding mids.  As a whole team, they don't defend well, so it's not just a couple of weak links.

 

We have given up several late goals where 5 or 6 of our players were trapped up field on a turn over. No sense of urgency to get back. I know they were tired by then but you expect at least one or two to run back. Like you said, as a team they don't defend well.

[shermanator]

3 hours ago, farrelld said:

As an Impact fan I have no idea how Vancouver gets so much criticism for its Canadian player situation. Montreal barely has 3 players at or near MLS level and of the 3 Bekker has the most minutes. 

Well, it helps that none of the Impact faithful are ardently defending their club's commitment to Canadian talent time after time. 

From my perspective, it doesn't seem like the Impact are holding local talent back at the moment because quite frankly, there's no local talent that is worthy of stepping into the lineup. Bekker has started over 50% of the club's games, which is a pleasant surprise. Bernier is on his last legs of his career and a reduced role is to be expected. What should be criticized in regards to the Impact is that they haven't developed anyone even close to the likes of what TFC or the Whitecaps. Their academy is new, but it's still in year 7. Let's look at what the Impact have produced from their academy:

- Tissot: Has been very impactful on the wing, for another club. I would have argued Tissot was not getting a fair shake in Montreal when he was still there, but he's not there anymore. He'll thrive in Ottawa.

- Ouimette: He's really struggled in his time in Montreal and New York, and reports are he's struggling in Jacksonville as well. I think it's safe to say Ouimette will not see any more time in MLS.

- Lefevre: I've never really been impressed with him in the few times I've seen him play. Don't know why he's in our national team picture to be honest.

- AJH: Does anyone expect him to get minutes with Drogba in the lineup? 

- JGL: I'll let others talk about how he sucks and just leave my view of him out of here.

- Crepeau: In my opinion he should be the backup, but that doesn't mean he's going to get minutes. If anything the club putting him as the #3 keeper is helping his development.

- Messoudi, Choiniere, Beland-Goyette: N/A, so far down the depth chart.

In addition to this, their USL side is flat out TERRIBLE. Wins shouldn't matter for the USL sides, but FC Montreal are so unbelievably bad at the USL level that it's embarrassing. Tabla has lived up to the hype, but outside of him there is no one even close to being worthy of an MLS deal.

[TRM]

- AJH: Does anyone expect him to get minutes with Drogba in the lineup? 

No but Drogba is old and this may be his last season. AJH will get his chance and over the next few years I'm thinking he'll turn into a solid pro. I've always thought highly of AJH as he has always provided heart stopping moments against us when he comes on. He seems to have all the tools and the will so I'd take him off that list.

Lefevre? Okay but unspectacular. Does what he should and does it well. I still think he is a decent MLS level player.

[masster]

7 hours ago, Bison44 said:

This isnt a Whitecap thing, all 3 MLS teams do it.  But personally I give Impact a little more credit as they have played CDN, almost twice as much as VAN, and I dont think they have as good CDN players to trot out, and I dont think they have as good prospects in USL to call up.  And they are having a better season than Vancouver..so you can have your cake and eat it too sometimes.  And Hamilton was not a back up to Altidore, they had to shit can 3 other guys from last year before he moved up to a regular bench spot.  

My main point with Jacobson (in particular) is that VAN brought extra bodies in at midfield..so that they wouldnt have to play Froese, Bustos Mckendry and Levis etc.  To me that is dissapointing that there is alot of young CDN talent there and Robbo and Company didnt think enough of them to at least give them a shot as squad depth kind of player.  

I understand your argument, but you lose credibility when using Jacobson as an example. He has been one of the Whitecaps most consistent players, and a necessary addition after the departure of Koffie.

[BrennanFan]

MLS Minutes (Goals) thus far

Larin 1509 (11)

Osorio 1303

Johnson 1238 (2)

Akindele 1081 (5)

Aird 1014

Bekker 988 (1)

Lefevre 856

Bernier 701

Opare 695

Hamilton 657 (3)

Babouli 568

Chapman 534

Tissot 517 (1)

Teibert 448

Froese 150

deJong 114

Adekugbe 111

Morgan 97

Jackson-Hamel 68 (1)

Bustos 50

Ricketts 19

Davies 13

Edwards 2

[C2SKI]

I'm guessing a few Canadian 'Caps get their shot in Champions League action tomorrow night. Including Brett Levis, which I think is very deserving. http://theprovince.com/sports/soccer/mls/vancouver-whitecaps/marc-weber-levis-is-dressed-to-impress-as-caps-open-ccl-play?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter 

This could be an interesting one to watch.

[shamrock]

Jackson-Hamel should get out ASAP. Not because Montreal is a bad organization or whatever, but he needs more minutes and he would probably be a starter at the NASL level. So why loose any more time, just go there!

I'd argue the same for Babouli, he's promising and obviously the coaches think he's got something. But MLS at this moment may be above his head. That's not the end of the world, I'd love to see him tear it up at the NASL level. Who knows were that would take him in 2-3 years time. 

[Dub Narcotic]

Jackson-Hamel has very nice per-90 numbers on a small sample size, I would like to see him play more next year. Babouli is a tough player to judge, Giovinco already plays the free role that is Babouli's best and I don't see playing him over anybody else in the lineup, especially when the team struggled to store when he played a lot of minutes in this last stretch. 

[jonovision]

13 hours ago, TRM said:

- AJH: Does anyone expect him to get minutes with Drogba in the lineup? 

No but Drogba is old and this may be his last season. AJH will get his chance and over the next few years I'm thinking he'll turn into a solid pro. I've always thought highly of AJH as he has always provided heart stopping moments against us when he comes on. He seems to have all the tools and the will so I'd take him off that list.

Lefevre? Okay but unspectacular. Does what he should and does it well. I still think he is a decent MLS level player.

I thought AJH looked good and lively in the few chances he was given this season. Lefevre has also been decent. I was at the Impact game in Portland and spent a lot of time watching him and he did not look beneath the level at all. He was always ready to clean up after Ciman when the latter made his forays forward.

[Ruffian]

I do not think Vancouver's poor record with playing Canadians can be argued even if there are some perfectly good reasons (excuses) for it.

I assume tonight we will see Edgar play and show his quality and gain his starting position and De Jong will likely go on a string of starts and the Canadian number for the Whitecaps will be decent for the last part of the season.

[TRM]

9 hours ago, Ruffian said:

I do not think Vancouver's poor record with playing Canadians can be argued even if there are some perfectly good reasons (excuses) for it.

I assume tonight we will see Edgar play and show his quality and gain his starting position and De Jong will likely go on a string of starts and the Canadian number for the Whitecaps will be decent for the last part of the season.

I'm just relieved that we've finally got some CMNT vets to sign for us. Not being able to land any and even a BC boy like Rob Friend staying in Germany for less money just frustrates me. Is it the turf? Families living in Ontario/Quebec? Now we've got 2 with good mileage left on them so maybe more will now consider us. I hope so.

[BearcatSA]

On August 1, 2016 at 3:22 PM, TRM said:

We have given up several late goals where 5 or 6 of our players were trapped up field on a turn over. No sense of urgency to get back. I know they were tired by then but you expect at least one or two to run back. Like you said, as a team they don't defend well.

The wing/attacking mid guys provide so-so commitment to defensive duties and that doesn't help the fullbacks much.