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The 23-man squad vs Mexico. (your picks, speculation & confirmed call-ups)


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10 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

The big reason Floro doesn't rate Osorio is that his defensive effort isn't as strong as our existing midfielders.  Floro values defense first and offensive flair 2nd.  Osorio is an attacking midfielder first and foremost.  He's improving as a defensive midfielder but he doesn't have the defensive instincts to be effective in this system.  

 

Why can't he just be a late game sub where if we are down a goal we need some flair to score. We have no CAMs that can be subbed on.

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1 hour ago, canta15 said:

Why can't he just be a late game sub where if we are down a goal we need some flair to score. We have no CAMs that can be subbed on.

I'm asking this as an honest question: Do you think Osorio's performances this season so far have warranted inclusion? Two disclaimers: I'm a big fan of the guy and two games is not a lot of data to go on, but I've thought his performances this year have been mediocre. He's seemed slow and ponderous, and has never seemed to be dangerous. I'm not sure quite how to phrase it. There's a sense I get when a player gets the ball at his feet or makes an off the ball run where you just feel he/she's going to be able to create something. I got that feeling semi-regularly with Osorio last year, but so far this year, I'm not feeling it and he doesn't seem to be either.

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18 minutes ago, canta15 said:

Why can't he just be a late game sub where if we are down a goal we need some flair to score. We have no CAMs that can be subbed on.

I don't know if Osorio is the player I want for the situation you describe.

I would think we need to bring on an attack-minded winger in such a situation, like Akindele or Petrasso (when he eventually breaks into the NT). Petrasso in particular is the type of player that can change a game with the way he runs at defenders.

When I think of a game changer, I also think of Ian Hume. He was always the perfect super-sub, but now that he's playing in the "best second division division on the planet", there's an automatically guarantee he scores for us off the bench. Another option I would go with before Osorio in that situation.

So, I believe it is important to have someone who brings flair (or an impact) from the bench when we are down, I can think of other players that might be more suited, given how we play.

Edited by Obinna
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Fair points. His performances this season have not been the best but other than Akindele (who plays more out wide) and Hume (who is really a striker) we have no attacking minded CMs. I would like to see Osorio over Hume personally. Does Hume really have any defensive abilities? He would be a striker playing in a CM role.

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12 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

I'm asking this as an honest question: Do you think Osorio's performances this season so far have warranted inclusion? Two disclaimers: I'm a big fan of the guy and two games is not a lot of data to go on, but I've thought his performances this year have been mediocre. He's seemed slow and ponderous, and has never seemed to be dangerous. I'm not sure quite how to phrase it. There's a sense I get when a player gets the ball at his feet or makes an off the ball run where you just feel he/she's going to be able to create something. I got that feeling semi-regularly with Osorio last year, but so far this year, I'm not feeling it and he doesn't seem to be either.

I'd respectfully disagree. The tactics have been quite different this season, and if anything I was surprised by Osorio's defensive performance this year, especially in the Red Bulls game, really pestering the midfield and getting back in a game where they basically absorbed pressure for the full 90. I still think of the 2 games so far this year with the exception of Giovinco the guy is just so good with the ball at his feet, he just never loses the ball and finds little cracks out of ugly situations.

With that said, did I expect him to get called up? No. As fans we don't know the whole story. Speculation is fun, but I'm sure Floro has his issue, Osorio has his and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

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1 hour ago, lazlo_80 said:

The tactics have been quite different this season, and if anything I was surprised by Osorio's defensive performance this year, especially in the Red Bulls game, really pestering the midfield and getting back in a game where they basically absorbed pressure for the full 90.

Yes that's a good point. I've thought he's been better defensively as well but poorer going forward. Of course, if you've been asked to stay home, then this would explain his performance. I'm thinking back to a few times though, where I thought he'd have an opportunity to make something happen, and he seemed slow and then caught in possession. But perhaps this is a tactical decision, something I probably should have thought of but didn't, admittedly.

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6 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

I'd respectfully disagree. The tactics have been quite different this season, and if anything I was surprised by Osorio's defensive performance this year, especially in the Red Bulls game, really pestering the midfield and getting back in a game where they basically absorbed pressure for the full 90. I still think of the 2 games so far this year with the exception of Giovinco the guy is just so good with the ball at his feet, he just never loses the ball and finds little cracks out of ugly situations.

With that said, did I expect him to get called up? No. As fans we don't know the whole story. Speculation is fun, but I'm sure Floro has his issue, Osorio has his and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I too have noticed an improvement in Osorio on the defensive end already this season.

 

13 minutes ago, canta15 said:

Fair points. His performances this season have not been the best but other than Akindele (who plays more out wide) and Hume (who is really a striker) we have no attacking minded CMs. I would like to see Osorio over Hume personally. Does Hume really have any defensive abilities? He would be a striker playing in a CM role.

The question I am asking myself is, do we even need an attack-minded CM? If we are down a goal and need a player who brings creativity or an impact off the bench, i'm not convinced it has to come from the centre of the park. 

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There is a perception that Osorio has not been given a chance by Floro. This is not true. He has played  427 minutes over 9 matches under Floro. Whatever the merits of his judgment, Floro has seen what Osorio brings to the table and has deemed it surplus to requirements. 

I'm pleased that the biggest arguments are about guys (Hume, Osorio, etc.) that are depth players instead of the omission of someone who could be an important starter.

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How long have these MLS academies been around someone please enlighten me? TFC started in 2007, 2007 I will say it again 2007! That's like 9 years right and I suck at math! Vancouver and Montreal came a few years later. The academies were created even later. These academies came into being into what was a mess of a youth soccer system here in Canada, a joke of a system that it was a miracle that any players were ever produced in the years before. The youth soccer system has been a complete mess and only in recent years has the CSA finally started to make positive changes that should eventually produce better players. The majority of youth soccer in Canada was run by people who's only interest was themselves and not the betterment of the game were the word change was a bad word, I know I saw it with my own eyes being involved over the years. Therefore, this is the landscape these MLS academies were facing when they started and one of the reasons that it has taken so long according to some people on these boards for players to be produced, but the other reason is that the MLS academies and some of the other academies are still babies, if we are having this same discussion in say another 10 years then I will agree. Even if there is no CPL created we will be fine people I believe in time with the maturing of the MLS academies and the NASL ones and all the other ones we have and along with all the positive changes that are being implemented by the CSA in terms of youth soccer we are going to be alright and I believe the MLS academies will be one of the major factors. I repeat Rome was not built in a day, thank you!

Edited by 1996
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Our attack is mostly going to be generated by the wings and striker working together.  The CM's are asked to disrupt and distribute primarily and then act as trailing attackers late in the rush.  

For that purpose having subs like Ricketts and Akindele are perfect because the my can disrupt their wing and finish as supporting attackers.

Until JDG declines more our prImary CM's are set and the next in line are probably Piette and Teibert.

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2 hours ago, shermanator said:

From my vantage point I think that only having 1 MLS player from the 3 Canadian clubs really means that the Canadian clubs are not developing good enough talent for Canada to compete with the likes of Mexico or the USA. 

With the roster that was called up, we have one player developed by TFC (Henry), one player developed by the Impact (Ouimette) and two players developed by the Whitecaps in their pre MLS days (Haber and Straith). Are any of these players going to start? Straith might have a shot, but the others will probably not. And that is really disappointing, given the 20 years combined these academies have been around.

Even looking at the players developed by these clubs that are on the fringes who could have been called: Teibert, Lefevre, Tissot, Morgan, Adekugbe; none of these players are anywhere near our best 11. Osorio's time at the TFC academy was very brief so I'm not including him in this list, and he's not near our best 11 either.

I do agree that this adds fuel to the fact that Canada desperately needs it's own league to develop talent that can compete internationally. But it's not due to Floro selectively choosing who not to call. It's simply that the talent the Canadian clubs are developing isn't good enough to compete internationally against top opponents. 

combined years is a meaningless stat, you want to take players from the age of 9 or whatever and train them all the way through, none of the clubs have been around long enough for that yet at the MLS level. I don't think TFC has a single kid who started with them at the age of 11 or 12, which is their age bottom I believe.

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1 hour ago, rob.notenboom said:

Yes that's a good point. I've thought he's been better defensively as well but poorer going forward. Of course, if you've been asked to stay home, then this would explain his performance. I'm thinking back to a few times though, where I thought he'd have an opportunity to make something happen, and he seemed slow and then caught in possession. But perhaps this is a tactical decision, something I probably should have thought of but didn't, admittedly.

You could very well be correct as well. I'm admittedly an Osorio fan boy so I tend to see the positive. He certainly hasn't been as dangerous this year but I sort of chalked it up to that not being his primary responsibility in the 2 games this year.

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2 hours ago, lazlo_80 said:

You could very well be correct as well. I'm admittedly an Osorio fan boy so I tend to see the positive. He certainly hasn't been as dangerous this year but I sort of chalked it up to that not being his primary responsibility in the 2 games this year.

Yes and factor that in with the super long road trip for TFC and the need to get some points on the road, and it makes sense that reducing risk taking and being disciplined defensively is a tactic they are using. If Osorio has changed his game to reflect that, then it says a very positive thing about him. Get a few ties and the odd win and TFC will be positioned well for the rest of the year, and perhaps Osorio has this front of mind in every game.

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1 hour ago, Coramoor said:

combined years is a meaningless stat, you want to take players from the age of 9 or whatever and train them all the way through, none of the clubs have been around long enough for that yet at the MLS level. I don't think TFC has a single kid who started with them at the age of 11 or 12, which is their age bottom I believe.

The combined years stat actually helps the argument from TFC's point of view, because they make up 40% of the years themselves. TFC is in season 10, and their academy is in season 9. In that time frame, Doneil Henry is the only TFC Academy player that is on the cusp of being a senior team regular for the important games. And that's very arguable, given the many calls from supporters that argue he's not starting quality. That is an absolute and utter failure considering the talent available to TFC, regardless of what age range the talent that came through their academy started at. 

The same argument goes for the Whitecaps and Impact. And the same argument to a lesser extent goes for the Fury and FC Edmonton, given that their academies have not been around as long. Simply put, the professional clubs in this country have yet to produce players that can help the senior team win the key games that matter.

How many more years do we have to wait before our professional clubs actually start producing players that can help us in the big games? 5? 10? 25? Personally I've seen enough to know that soccer in this country needs more than what we have today.

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3 minutes ago, shermanator said:

The combined years stat actually helps the argument from TFC's point of view, because they make up 40% of the years themselves. TFC is in season 10, and their academy is in season 9. In that time frame, Doneil Henry is the only TFC Academy player that is on the cusp of being a senior team regular for the important games. And that's very arguable, given the many calls from supporters that argue he's not starting quality. That is an absolute and utter failure considering the talent available to TFC, regardless of what age range the talent that came through their academy started at. 

The same argument goes for the Whitecaps and Impact. And the same argument to a lesser extent goes for the Fury and FC Edmonton, given that their academies have not been around as long. Simply put, the professional clubs in this country have yet to produce players that can help the senior team win the key games that matter.

How many more years do we have to wait before our professional clubs actually start producing players that can help us in the big games? 5? 10? 25? Personally I've seen enough to know that soccer in this country needs more than what we have today.

5-10 years would be my guess. You need a player to go all the way through an academy, from age 11 to the first team, when TFC's academy started, that wasn't an option, they also weren't running a team like TFC2 to get kids to the next level. There are plenty of players in the various academies you can point to as very promising. Whether it's Alphonso Davies, Kadin Chung, Luca Uccello, Jean-Yves Ballou Tabla, etc. It's a slow start which is unfortunate but the future is clearly bright and while a Canadian League would help. Things seem to be progressing fine, albeit relatively slow without it.

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All the talk about Osorio....he wasn't a starter before he threw his tantrum.  And the recent commitments of Hoilett, Akindele and now Arfield push him farther into the fringes.  I love Osorio and Tiebert.  But if either one of them wants to get on the field again for Canada they have to step up and become top quality starters in MLS.  With the depth we have now and the crop of youngsters (Aleman, Petrasso, Froese, Bustos etc etc) coming up fast, guys like Osorio and Tiebert and thankfully Bekker, are not just given a spot on the 23 man roster automatically anymore.  We as fans may not like that our favorite are not in camp, but I am glad Floro has options now, and can actually go with players in good form.  

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19 hours ago, sose said:

The guys on the Canadian MLS teams are on the fringes... Maybe if TIebert was in form he would be called up.. but no one is really missing.  Jackson /Cavallini are the only two that are in form that are missing.

Tiebert is injured otherwise I'm pretty sure he'd be in the lineup.

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3 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

Yes and factor that in with the super long road trip for TFC and the need to get some points on the road, and it makes sense that reducing risk taking and being disciplined defensively is a tactic they are using. If Osorio has changed his game to reflect that, then it says a very positive thing about him. Get a few ties and the odd win and TFC will be positioned well for the rest of the year, and perhaps Osorio has this front of mind in every game.

Wow. thoughtful, respectful discussion and consensus on the Voyageurs board? I must be on the wrong website.

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6 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

Wow. thoughtful, respectful discussion and consensus on the Voyageurs board? I must be on the wrong website.

Ha! No doubt. 

In all seriousness I a) Don't see the point in being a dick to people just because I'm semi-anonymous online and b ) Think a reasonable amount of humility about one's opinions is a healthy thing. So I'm unlikely to take offence at someone disagreeing with me, esp if they make a solid point, and it was. :)

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1 hour ago, rob.notenboom said:

Ha! No doubt. 

In all seriousness I a) Don't see the point in being a dick to people just because I'm semi-anonymous online and b ) Think a reasonable amount of humility about one's opinions is a healthy thing. So I'm unlikely to take offence at someone disagreeing with me, esp if they make a solid point, and it was. :)

Agreed. If you're on this board you probably already have enough  trouble finding people to talk Canadian soccer with. No need to alienate even more people.

Edited by lazlo_80
typo
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By my count, Arfield is the 75th player called in by Floro (58 of whom have seen action).

(That's not to mention the kids he would have seen with the U-23s.) Love him or hate him, Floro has been willing to take a look at pretty much everybody.

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6 hours ago, 1996 said:

How long have these MLS academies been around someone please enlighten me? TFC started in 2007, 2007 I will say it again 2007! That's like 9 years right and I suck at math! Vancouver and Montreal came a few years later. The academies were created even later. These academies came into being into what was a mess of a youth soccer system here in Canada, a joke of a system that it was a miracle that any players were ever produced in the years before. The youth soccer system has been a complete mess and only in recent years has the CSA finally started to make positive changes that should eventually produce better players. The majority of youth soccer in Canada was run by people who's only interest was themselves and not the betterment of the game were the word change was a bad word, I know I saw it with my own eyes being involved over the years. Therefore, this is the landscape these MLS academies were facing when they started and one of the reasons that it has taken so long according to some people on these boards for players to be produced, but the other reason is that the MLS academies and some of the other academies are still babies, if we are having this same discussion in say another 10 years then I will agree. Even if there is no CPL created we will be fine people I believe in time with the maturing of the MLS academies and the NASL ones and all the other ones we have and along with all the positive changes that are being implemented by the CSA in terms of youth soccer we are going to be alright and I believe the MLS academies will be one of the major factors. I repeat Rome was not built in a day, thank you!

 

There is a strong belief that the academies have not progressed since their inception. 

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54 minutes ago, gkhs said:

By my count, Arfield is the 75th player called in by Floro (58 of whom have seen action).

(That's not to mention the kids he would have seen with the U-23s.) Love him or hate him, Floro has been willing to take a look at pretty much everybody.

Cough...Cough Occean.

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