Canadian Premier League

[Rheo]

5 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

I fear that the league is already creating a consumer mentality, in the way they've gone about everything to date. I truly hope I'm wrong though, as I agree with your above comment.  

I disagree with this but curious as to why you think this?  

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

13 minutes ago, Rheo said:

As I said to BBTB I was working and trying to take notes at the same time so I might of misheard/misinterpreted the number.  I did rewind it a few times though as I originally thought he meant 3-4 starters but then he said the 10-11 realistically on a team anyways that I changed it to roster as a whole.  So that's my impression of what he said and honestly it could be wrong.

He has claimed on a podcast (FC Edmonton oriented one) that the CFL team owners want a quota as low as 3 or 4 in the past. Think Peter Montopoli was quoted in a recent tweet as saying that the matter had yet to be settled but the league is expected to be "Canada heavy".

 

[C2SKI]

9 minutes ago, Rheo said:

I disagree with this but curious as to why you think this?  

The simple fact that the most committed supporters in the country don't seem to know whether their market/club is even being considered is quite telling.

[matty]

You're going to need a decent amount of CanCon on rosters to claim being a Canadian league. I've always guessed 3-4 is regarding who is on the pitch at all times. I don't see them doing this with less than 8 Canadians on a game day 18 and 2 Canadian coaches per team. If they didn't they'd lose a lot of the patriotic support.

[Rheo]

1 minute ago, C2SKI said:

The simple fact that the most committed supporters in the country don't know whether their market/club is even being considered is quite telling.

So because you don't know if you're getting a local team you think they're aiming for a consumer mentality?

I would point out to Beirne meeting with supporter groups for teams that don't exist as evidence against that.  Add in his previous work at TFC (I only know from third hand) and I feel they know what they're doing.  They know that the grassroots are important, they just aren't ready to give everything away yet.

They're controlling the message.  They leaked it to Rollins years ago to get the hardcore excited and it worked.  Mission accomplished as the now 396 page thread here and before mentioned supporters groups for teams that didn't exist or just came to be Saturday.  Just like they controlled the message on Saturday.  Just like the will in the future.  

I know the roll out hasn't been what everyone wanted or thinks is  the best.  But looking back I think I see what they're going for and don't have an issue with it.  In fact as I said somewhere back many pages ago I like the roll out in hindsight and look forward to what's to come

[Rheo]

2 minutes ago, matty said:

You're going to need a decent amount of CanCon on rosters to claim being a Canadian league. I've always guessed 3-4 is regarding who is on the pitch at all times. I don't see them doing this with less than 8 Canadians on a game day 18 and 2 Canadian coaches per team. If they didn't they'd lose a lot of the patriotic support.

I hope so.  God can you imagine Totera if it was only 3-4 lol.  Hopefully I just interpreted it wrong

[lazlo_80]

22 minutes ago, Rheo said:

I hope so.  God can you imagine Totera if it was only 3-4 lol.  Hopefully I just interpreted it wrong

I heard it that way too.

For me it's a bit of a wait and see. To his point in expecting 10 players on a team despite only requiring 3-4, it allows the canadian teams to not suddenly artificially rise the price of canadian players.

suppose it was a 10 player requirement. If an agent of a canadian player knows you need 2 more canadians he can squeeze you, if he knows you already have 7 and are also looking at a guy from Cuba, his leverage is gone.

I don't doubt Bob Young does want to develop a ton of Canadian players. But you seriously run the risk of inflating the price of a Canadian player if it's suddenly very high out of the blue. and obviously the economic foundation of this league is going to be incredibly important to it's long term well being.

[dyslexic nam]

53 minutes ago, admin said:

The third part of this must be soccer community we haven't yet built.   I would argue it's the most important part. 

As soon as you talk about a 'high level product'  you are shifting people from being supporters to consumers. 

If we go the consumer route, it will be nay impossible to compete. 

 

I am probably wrong in this, but I think there has to be a balance of consumers vs supporters, of investment in the product vs the experience.  I don't think that a supporters group will yield sustained, passionate engagement that will keep a club afloat if it doesn't produce an on-field product that warrants that kind of loyalty.  Ideally, the two factors can grow in lockstep, with strong supporter culture fueling (and funding) the growth in quality, but I can't see a sustainable league ignoring the latter.

I will use TFC as an example.  They were somewhat sustained in the early days by a strong supporters group, but things turned increasingly sour as the on-field performances were consistently underwhelming.  I heard lots about casual fans no longer going to games, saw lots of empty seats in the stands, and read about people not renewing season's tickets.  That is because lots of the gate revenue came from consumers of the product - and they stopped feeling that they were getting value for money.  It was only with the renewed investment in some key players, and the subsequent results (and performances) improving on field that TFC regained the momentum amongst many of its fans - even if the die-hards never left. 

Canada has come a long way in its support for footy, and I am optimistic that we will see continued growth in that area - including what I take to be the kind of strong supporter culture that you discuss.  But I am not so sure that we are so far along in that evolution that we will see 8-12 die-hard groups develop in Canada that can solely sustain a pro league populated by their clubs, or who can generate interest from casual fans despite the product being offered on-field.

Like I said, I stand to be corrected.  But in the context of the need for financial sustainability (and with the overarching goal of elevating the quality of players produced within our borders) the folks launching a new pro league in Canada absolutely should worry about the quality of the product they are offering.  Not in any way to the exclusion of a positive supporter culture, but in fact supporting and fueling it.

[Admin]

4 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am probably wrong in this, but I think there has to be a balance of consumers vs supporters, of investment in the product vs the experience.  I don't think that a supporters group will yield sustained, passionate engagement that will keep a club afloat if it doesn't produce an on-field product that warrants that kind of loyalty.  Ideally, the two factors can grow in lockstep, with strong supporter culture fueling (and funding) the growth in quality, but I can't see a sustainable league ignoring the latter.

I will use TFC as an example.  They were somewhat sustained in the early days by a strong supporters group, but things turned increasingly sour as the on-field performances were consistently underwhelming.  I heard lots about casual fans no longer going to games, saw lots of empty seats in the stands, and read about people not renewing season's tickets.  That is because lots of the gate revenue came from consumers of the product - and they stopped feeling that they were getting value for money.  It was only with the renewed investment in some key players, and the subsequent results (and performances) improving on field that TFC regained the momentum amongst many of its fans - even if the die-hards never left. 

Canada has come a long way in its support for footy, and I am optimistic that we will see continued growth in that area - including what I take to be the kind of strong supporter culture that you discuss.  But I am not so sure that we are so far along in that evolution that we will see 8-12 die-hard groups develop in Canada that can solely sustain a pro league populated by their clubs, or who can generate interest from casual fans despite the product being offered on-field.

Like I said, I stand to be corrected.  But in the context of the need for financial sustainability (and with the overarching goal of elevating the quality of players produced within our borders) the folks launching a new pro league in Canada absolutely should worry about the quality of the product they are offering.  Not in any way to the exclusion of a positive supporter culture, but in fact supporting and fueling it.

You are reading too much into the word supporter in this case.  My fault for not being clear.  

I wasn't speaking about supporters in the SG sense, but a supportive community. 

Of course the league should be the best it can possibly be and always strive to be better.  If that isn't a core principle of it... I can't imagine we would even be talking about it now. 

[lazlo_80]

6 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am probably wrong in this, but I think there has to be a balance of consumers vs supporters, of investment in the product vs the experience.  I don't think that a supporters group will yield sustained, passionate engagement that will keep a club afloat if it doesn't produce an on-field product that warrants that kind of loyalty.  Ideally, the two factors can grow in lockstep, with strong supporter culture fueling (and funding) the growth in quality, but I can't see a sustainable league ignoring the latter.

I will use TFC as an example.  They were somewhat sustained in the early days by a strong supporters group, but things turned increasingly sour as the on-field performances were consistently underwhelming.  I heard lots about casual fans no longer going to games, saw lots of empty seats in the stands, and read about people not renewing season's tickets.  That is because lots of the gate revenue came from consumers of the product - and they stopped feeling that they were getting value for money.  It was only with the renewed investment in some key players, and the subsequent results (and performances) improving on field that TFC regained the momentum amongst many of its fans - even if the die-hards never left. 

Canada has come a long way in its support for footy, and I am optimistic that we will see continued growth in that area - including what I take to be the kind of strong supporter culture that you discuss.  But I am not so sure that we are so far along in that evolution that we will see 8-12 die-hard groups develop in Canada that can solely sustain a pro league populated by their clubs, or who can generate interest from casual fans despite the product being offered on-field.

Like I said, I stand to be corrected.  But in the context of the need for financial sustainability (and with the overarching goal of elevating the quality of players produced within our borders) the folks launching a new pro league in Canada absolutely should worry about the quality of the product they are offering.  Not in any way to the exclusion of a positive supporter culture, but in fact supporting and fueling it.

To this point too, one isn't mutually exclusive from the other.

[Rheo]

So was it just me or did we break the board lol

[Alex D]

1 minute ago, Rheo said:

So was it just me or did we break the board lol

I was having issues as well. 

[Admin]

1 minute ago, Rheo said:

So was it just me or did we break the board lol

Yeah, it was down.  It did it briefly a few times early today but didn't want to play any more the last time.   

Fixed now. 

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, Rheo said:

Asked about TV contract and said it will be difficult for them to get one.  Wouldn't be surprised if it only online (Ie Twitter, Facebook, YouTube) at launch.  Said it will be hard to get money from TV until they're proven and the changing nature of sports media properties.

CBC could be a main front runner. It's within their mandate to show Canadian content and cash is hardly an issue (won't get into the complex feud of private TV vs CBC)

CBC is better if you ask me in the beginning. Everyone can access it for free and you know they will pay you something for it. If you're thinking long term and growing your base, CBC is the best choice.

4 hours ago, Rheo said:

And the million dollar question, relationship with MLS and I quote, "the MLS teams will be invited in and allowed to contribute somehow to the CPL  but there's no way in hell they'll be allowed to brand the teams as TFC II"  He speculates affiliate model with loans to regional teams but repeated a couple of more times "No way in Hell" any II designation.

I agree and it goes in line with what Totera said. If ever the MLS clubs wants to join CPL in some form of affiliate model, they have to stop dictating the terms and accept the CPL terms or to stay away.

For me it's (some not, not necessarily all)

•No B names or #2 allowed

•Minority shareholder with an independent operator for these teams

•Can't be near the big 3 markets. They can only go to St.John's NFLD? Charlottetown PEI? Thunder Bay? Ensuring there's a team in every provinces

•Spending against the entire cap

Whatever it Is, it will only happen under the CPL terms, not theirs. Take it or leave it

[Ansem]

On Osorio:

Impact or Whitecaps are his best odds: If they don't take him, he's an international in the US and his odds of beating a European or south American of similar talent for the kind of minutes he's looking for are slim at best.

No need to overpay for him. You wait until Montreal and Vancouver pass on him. Then you negociate. You make it clear that he gets all the minutes he wants in CPL versus more money in MLS but low odds of playing more minutes than he is a TFC at the moment.

His choice. He deserves a good salary but not being overpaid. If he's smart, he signs in CPL, kills it/dominates and make the argument that he deserves to go higher (Europe, South America). As of now, no way he ends up in Europe by being a bench warmer or late sub in MLS

[lazlo_80]

5 minutes ago, Ansem said:

On Osorio:

Impact or Whitecaps are his best odds: If they don't take him, he's an international in the US and his odds of beating a European or south American of similar talent for the kind of minutes he's looking for are slim at best.

No need to overpay for him. You wait until Montreal and Vancouver pass on him. Then you negociate. You make it clear that he gets all the minutes he wants in CPL versus more money in MLS but low odds of playing more minutes than he is a TFC at the moment.

His choice. He deserves a good salary but not being overpaid. If he's smart, he signs in CPL, kills it/dominates and make the argument that he deserves to go higher (Europe, South America). As of now, no way he ends up in Europe by being a bench warmer or late sub in MLS

respectfully disagree on his possibilities in the MLS. He could be a starter at a number of teams in this league. C

If he goes to the CanPL its for other reasons. It's like when Lalas left Serie A to go to the beginning of MLS. It's not a good career move in a traditional sense, but does it lead to opportunities with the league down the road that he's offered before anyone else? Lalas has been everything from GM to color commentator thanks to MLS.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, lazlo_80 said:

respectfully disagree on his possibilities in the MLS. He could be a starter at a number of teams in this league. C

If he goes to the CanPL its for other reasons. It's like when Lalas left Serie A to go to the beginning of MLS. It's not a good career move in a traditional sense, but does it lead to opportunities with the league down the road that he's offered before anyone else? Lalas has been everything from GM to color commentator thanks to MLS.

Believe me, I hope I'm wrong about him and wish him everything he wants. Just stating the obvious that if Vancouver and Montreal pass on him, it will be very hard.

He's likely not getting the minutes this year to make his case to the US teams that he should start. He's an international...

Comes down to what he wants personally. Start or bench in a US based team and fight your way to starter? He ain't starting in a US based team.

[dyslexic nam]

6 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

It's like when Lalas left Serie A to go to the beginning of MLS. It's not a good career move in a traditional sense, but does it lead to opportunities with the league down the road that he's offered before anyone else? Lalas has been everything from GM to color commentator thanks to MLS.

That is a great example of the kind of intangible "future opportunities" that can materialize for players willing to invest their time and potential in CPL at its foundation.  Whether you like Lalas or not, he certainly did contribute to MLS and thus the evolution of soccer in the US.  And for someone who may not be a lock as a career high-level player in Europe, it may be a worthwhile bet in terms of leveraging MLS-level talent into a lifelong career as a cog in the growth of Canadian footy.

[lazlo_80]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

Believe me, I hope I'm wrong about him and wish him everything he wants. Just stating the obvious that if Vancouver and Montreal pass on him, it will be very hard.

He's likely not getting the minutes this year to make his case to the US teams that he should start. He's an international...

Comes down to what he wants personally. Start or bench in a US based team and fight your way to starter? He ain't starting in a US based team.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on his potential. There's a ton of players who don't start on a top 3 team in the league but could easily start other places.

[deschamp86]

22 minutes ago, Ansem said:

CBC could be a main front runner. It's within their mandate to show Canadian content and cash is hardly an issue (won't get into the complex feud of private TV vs CBC)

CBC is better if you ask me in the beginning. Everyone can access it for free and you know they will pay you something for it. If you're thinking long term and growing your base, CBC is the best choice.

I agree. Hopefully they are involved. I always enjoyed watching TFC on CBC, other than waiting for equestrian shows to end

[dyslexic nam]

For all the reasons stated and more (free access, nation-wide coverage, mandate for CanCon, already funded by taxpayers, etc) I would love to see CBC get in on the ground floor.  And the usual public versus private bickering wouldn't even be relevant if none of the private sports networks express an interest. 

 

[C2SKI]

1 hour ago, Rheo said:

So because you don't know if you're getting a local team you think they're aiming for a consumer mentality?

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't live in a market that's anywhere near contention for a team, and I never said that the league was 'aiming' for a consumer mentality. I am, however, concerned that one is already developing, as evidenced by many of the comments on this thread and elsewhere. I think this consumer mindset makes it very tough for the league because there are so many other 'products' out there. When referring to the level of play, many seem to feel entitled to a certain quality before they're willing to watch. In reality the level of play is always dependent on the level of support.

 

[DannyFromToronto23]

if the 3 mls teams want to be involved in CPL then there b or affiliated teams should be rebranded 

WFC II= move it to Burnaby 

TFC II  = move It to some city in Ontario 

MTL = they have the fury so it's ok 

[Rheo]

18 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

 

Sorry wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, was asking if I was correct hence the question mark.

as for what people on here feel entitled to I've been trying to fight that with almost every post. Way too many people are hoping for/expecting too much and predicting doom if it doesn't come out as they think is the best. But that's the nature of message boards

[dyslexic nam]

3 minutes ago, DannyFromToronto23 said:

if the 3 mls teams want to be involved in CPL then there b or affiliated teams should be rebranded 

WFC II= move it to Burnaby 

TFC II  = move It to some city in Ontario 

MTL = they have the fury so it's ok 

No.  No B teams, and no relocating/rebranding.  None of those measures would change the fact that a large population of CPL would consist of MLS farm teams.  If the Canadian MLS owners want to support CPL, they should only do it in a way that do so in the ways others have mentioned: minority shareholders in independently run teams, strictly structured (and limited) player loan arrangements, etc.