Canadian Premier League

[matty]

7 minutes ago, shamrock said:

Well, then I think we agree.

You could just pay L1-players 55k and call it a high standard, but that's not going to cut it. You need to get those NASL-/ USL players aboard (which still wouldn't be nearly enough). 

Yea you need them and Central American/Caribbean internationers and guys with decent MLS and Europe resumes and DPs. You can't just fill it with USL guys because that won't work. It needs to be above both the US second divisions or at least look better than them

[Ansem]

They will target D1 and D2 players

[Rheo]

15 hours ago, dsqpr said:

The Bombers are a lot of money in the hole on IG Field and they need another tenant to help them pay that bill. Don't think for a moment that that is not part of their motivation. And who will benefit from that? Not the association football team! The stadium will be owned by the Bombers.

The Bombers have shown a good deal of contempt for association football over the years so my cynicism is well founded.

For the record I haven't read the four pages of replies.  After I did my initial reply to this needed a break from here so if there's duplication I apologize.  

The Bombers are a business, they need to make money, there's nothing wrong with that.  Yes the Bombers will be owning the stadium but they'll also be owning the soccer team.  Another tenant that they can make money with since they'll own it?  Sounds smart to me, not something that they would neglect to prop up another team that they own.  If they run to soccer team into the ground and alienate fans how does that make them money?

Do they care about growing the game?  Yes and no.  Yes because it will benefit them in the long run if the game grows but first and formost they want to make money which once again there is nothing wrong with that.  If the Jets were the owner would they doing it for the good of the game?  No they see it as a sound investment to make money on but they haven't crapped on soccer publically so they're the magical unicorn that can be the only good thing for socceer in Winnipeg.

My main point is way too many people want to ignore that this is the real world.  There aren't soccer fairies or Santa Clauses or bunnies that are going to drop soccer specific stadiums all across the land over night with billionaire owners ready to lose money all for the good of the growth of the game in Canada.

As I've said, this league isn't going to be perfect, but it's going to be ours.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not blindly following them down the yellow brick road.  I will criticize things when I fell it's appropriate. But just tired of some of the BS on here.  I apologize for directing it at you specifically @dsqpr

Now onto catching up on four pages of replies lol

[matty]

14 minutes ago, Ansem said:

They will target D1 and D2 players

That's what Beirne said along with the best bang for your buck in Central America. If you've got a 30-50% Canadian roster mixed with a solid base of Central American and Caribbean players and MLS/NASL level Americans, the league should be able to present itself as "CONCACAF elite" and use that to appeal while maintaining itself as truly Canadian.

[Rheo]

14 hours ago, matty said:

-They wrote about it briefly as part of a larger story.
-They carry CFL
-MLS's US broadcaster covered it
-TSN employees and shows are following the CPL on Twitter and Tweeting about it
-TSN Radio Vancouver retweeted several Tweets about the CPL including the CSA's tweets

THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY

And according to Larson to me on Twitter last week, MLS doesn't care about CPL when he asked about it (three pages to go in case this has been mentioned already)

[deschamp86]

After taking a quick look at the MLSPU salaries for the Canadian players, the median salary for Canadians in MLS is about $79,000US.

So for CPL to be able to compete with MLS for young Canadian players (MLS will still be the place to go for a higher pay) then the salary cap for an 18 man roster would be almost $2 million Canadian

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, deschamp86 said:

After taking a quick look at the MLSPU salaries for the Canadian players, the median salary for Canadians in MLS is about $79,000US.

So for CPL to be able to compete with MLS for young Canadian players (MLS will still be the place to go for a higher pay) then the salary cap for an 18 man roster would be almost $2 million Canadian

True but they will have to think about the bigger picture...Do you want US$79k and be a bench warmer or loaned to USL or CAN$75k and start and come off the bench as a sub?

Which scenario gives you the best shot to improve?

Which environment gives you a better chance to be on other league's radar if you develop into a good player?

If I'm Jordan Hamilton, whenever my contract is up, I have a decision to make.

[matty]

7 minutes ago, deschamp86 said:

After taking a quick look at the MLSPU salaries for the Canadian players, the median salary for Canadians in MLS is about $79,000US.

So for CPL to be able to compete with MLS for young Canadian players (MLS will still be the place to go for a higher pay) then the salary cap for an 18 man roster would be almost $2 million Canadian

It could still be 2m. Doubt it but it was an early number reported.

I think MLS roster rules (even with the changes) are still going to be a factor. CPL becomes a very attractive option for youngsters outside the MLS system and likely will offer more career stability and growth for Canadians (around the age of 18-21 that are on the outside) than MLS will in a few years. That said MLS will likely become the #1 buyer of CPL talent.

[deschamp86]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

True but they will have to think about the bigger picture...Do you want US$79k and be a bench warmer or loaned to USL or CAN$75k and start and come off the bench as a sub?

Which scenario gives you the best shot to improve?

Which environment gives you a better chance to be on other league's radar if you develop into a good player?

If I'm Jordan Hamilton, whenever my contract is up, I have a decision to make.

Oh I'm not saying its bad. I'm just speculating what I think the cap should be. Hopefully its not too much lower than that or I doubt a lot of the better Canadian players will be tempted over.

A lot of them will have to see it like you presented, a pay cut now, prove themselves, pay raise in the future

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, Rheo said:

And according to Larson to me on Twitter last week, MLS doesn't care about CPL when he asked about it (three pages to go in case this has been mentioned already)

But the 3 Canadian MLS clubs will care. As long as CPL doesn't come in their markets, they won't feel threatened but whatever ambition they had to penetrate more markets in Canada just ended. They missed their window and it's too late now.

[Ansem]

I'd be happy with 50% of CFL salary cap excluding DP for a start

2016 CFL

• CFL Salary cap: $5.1M
• Minimum team salary: $4.5M
• Minimum salary for a player:$52k

2018 CPL?

• Salary cap: $2.55M
• Minimum team salary: $2M
• Minimum salary for a player:$55k

With the emphasis on quality, I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the above ballpark

 

[matty]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

But the 3 Canadian MLS clubs will care. As long as CPL doesn't come in their markets, they won't feel threatened but whatever ambition they had to penetrate more markets in Canada just ended. They missed their window and it's too late now.

While I don't think there's a sinister MLS/TSN conspiracy, I do think the MLS teams are kicking themselves over the botching of how they went about establishing themselves in Canada. Yes they set-up academy partnerships but that only can go so far.

I think the Impact will hold on to Quebec outright for a while still, due to the apparent struggles for the CPL to find owners there and how hard it is to build a brand there, but TFC and the Caps messed up

[Rheo]

11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

But the 3 Canadian MLS clubs will care. As long as CPL doesn't come in their markets, they won't feel threatened but whatever ambition they had to penetrate more markets in Canada just ended. They missed their window and it's too late now.

Used this in reference to the theory of MLS is forcing TSN to not report the league.

[deschamp86]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I'd be happy with 50% of CFL salary cap excluding DP for a start

2016 CFL

• CFL Salary cap: $5.1M
• Minimum team salary: $4.5M
• Minimum salary for a player:$52k

2018 CPL?

• Salary cap: $2.55M
• Minimum team salary: $2M
• Minimum salary for a player:$55k

With the emphasis on quality, I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the above ballpark

 

I'd be over the moon with that cap. I think its high though. I think that my hope of 2 could also be high

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, matty said:

While I don't think there's a sinister MLS/TSN conspiracy, I do think the MLS teams are kicking themselves over the botching of how they went about establishing themselves in Canada. Yes they set-up academy partnerships but that only can go so far.

I think the Impact will hold on to Quebec outright for a while still, due to the apparent struggles for the CPL to find owners there and how hard it is to build a brand there, but TFC and the Caps messed up

100% agree with you:

TFC

• Ontario's Team?  Was that ever the case? They won't even be the GTA team for much longer 
• Worst case scenario is a CPL Toronto winning a cup before TFC does

Whitecaps

• I guess they won't claim to own BC to Manitoba much longer
• Inexcusable that all these years they didn't bother showing up in all the western provinces. Did they even go to other BC cities for exhibition games and practices? 

Montreal Impact

• They don't have any presence outside of Montreal Island. Saputo himself admitted it. He said the team needs to do better at winning the regions but I haven't seen any evidence that they are even trying.
• It's on them that they haven't sent FC Montreal (before folding the team) to Quebec City or Trois-Rivieres or even Sherbrooke.
• No exhibition games in Quebec City for the main club either...not even practices elsewhere, no charity events outside the city.
• They fucked up big time by taking eastern Canada for granted. Bilingual New-Brunswick could have embraced them...

Oh well, it's good news for CPL

[ThiKu]

10 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I don't foresee the league spending in the way that you do.  I foresee one or two DP-type players for each team, and a lot of players who have never played beyond the USL level.  They'll focus on playing Canadian players who have played at this level or in college and promote it as a place to watch Canadian players to play.  They'll work to keep salary costs heavily under control, because reports of teams losing millions upon millions each year will make the league look bad.

This is my expectation for at least the first 5 years. it will be much like TFC's first 5 years in MLS. They'll sign players they think are good enough only to learn the hard way they aren't. But, along the way the league will uncover 1 gem per year league wide that moves up to NASL, MLS....youth players will be discovered age 16 (think Peschisolido).....

[ThiKu]

4 hours ago, shamrock said:

That's not how it works though. Or would you like to see a league filled with mediocre Panamanians and the likes? 

For Canadians, it's not much, especially when they have other options nearby (in the event that they're actually good enough to play in ULS / NASL). 

I think it's great that there's finally a start, but it's still an upward battle. Especially in regard to the quality of play, you can't just fool people. 

Indeed - also the cost of living here is of course much higher than everywhere else in Concacaf, including USA bar those who live in major markets there.

[Ansem]

10 minutes ago, Rheo said:

Used this in reference to the theory of MLS is forcing TSN to not report the league.

If that's true, I'd say it's the 3 clubs, not the league. In Quebec, RDS isn't reporting it while their rival TVA Sports did.

Hoping Quebecor Media could be interested in a Quebec City team as they are pursuing the NHL to bring back the Nordiques

[dyslexic nam]

13 minutes ago, Ansem said:

But the 3 Canadian MLS clubs will care. As long as CPL doesn't come in their markets, they won't feel threatened but whatever ambition they had to penetrate more markets in Canada just ended. They missed their window and it's too late now.

I actually think this understates things.  I live in PEI, so the closest MLS team is over 1000 km away.  And the team I tend to cheer for is about 1700 km away (TFC, because they were first in the league).  I own some merch and have tuned in to many MLS games.  And I am not alone.  I see a fair number of people in the footy community sporting MLS kits and contributing in small part to the success of those clubs.  They watch games and they buy stuff.   It may not be much in the grand sceme of things (TFC will obviously continue to get the vast majority of support from the GTA) but it does matter.  It is no coincidence that both the Raps and the Jays brand themselves as Canada's teams (admittedly where they are our only national entry in their respective leagues).  In the same vein, VWC recently established a partnership with the PEISA to enhance player development:

http://www.theguardian.pe.ca/sports/soccer/2016/5/31/island-soccer-association-vancouver-whi-4545558.html   

My point being that the 3 MLS teams do yield benefits from all of the markets outside of the big 3 urban areas.  And they will feel the impact of footy fans in those areas migrating to support their local CPL teams - in terms of TV viewership, merch sales, academy partnerships, etc.  It won't be some fatal blow to their business model, but I absolutely believe that it will erode their support outside their home markets, and that the erosion of that support will matter.

 

[nolbertos]

14 minutes ago, matty said:

While I don't think there's a sinister MLS/TSN conspiracy, I do think the MLS teams are kicking themselves over the botching of how they went about establishing themselves in Canada. Yes they set-up academy partnerships but that only can go so far.

I think the Impact will hold on to Quebec outright for a while still, due to the apparent struggles for the CPL to find owners there and how hard it is to build a brand there, but TFC and the Caps messed up

Regarding the Whitecaps, they didn't mess up, when they were a USL side, they had no business in entering other provinces.  Once they joined MLS, they were more concerned about being compettve and getting their local academy running.  One of the reasons they expanded across Canada was, MLS gave them the territory on paper to recruit anyone from BC to Manitoba.  They later realized it was too much costs to fly around all the provinces to notice local talents, so they formed partnerships and mini-academies per say to give local kida a shot ti impress without flying to Van.  Regarding BC, don't know where you get your info but the Caps brand is 40 ys years strong from the NASL days.  People don't just magically support other teams not named Caps nowadays in the futbol market.  On the Island, maybe the Islanders brand, don't know as I'm not familiar with the history of Van Island futbol, but good luck to any CPL franchise here in BC.  Like I stated earlier, Victoria would be a better fit for a CPL franchise than anywhere on the mainland.

[ThiKu]

Victoria having a franchise would be a good move - but the best bet for success in BC is placing the team in North Surrey near the skytrain, or Burnaby also near the skytrain.

[matty]

9 minutes ago, ThiKu said:

This is my expectation for at least the first 5 years. it will be much like TFC's first 5 years in MLS. They'll sign players they think are good enough only to learn the hard way they aren't. But, along the way the league will uncover 1 gem per year league wide that moves up to NASL, MLS....youth players will be discovered age 16 (think Peschisolido).....

Moves up to the NASL? It's likely spending more money than the NASL and if it is under the NASL in terms of player it will fail and a league this weak, with 1 player at the MLS level, would likely fail to draw

7 minutes ago, ThiKu said:

Indeed - also the cost of living here is of course much higher than everywhere else in Concacaf, including USA bar those who live in major markets there.

The standard of living here is also a lot higher than all of CONCACAF and earning $50k here is a fair bit over the living wage here

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

It is no coincidence that both the Raps and the Jays brand themselves as Canada's teams (admittedly where they are our only national entry in their respective leagues).  In the same vein, VWC recently established a partnership with the PEISA to enhance player development:

The Blue Jays have 2 back to back Championships and had deep playoffs runs. They actually try to be visible across Canada while playing their exhibition games in Montreal. If BC place was on MLB standards, the Jays would go there as well. The Jays earned it.

The Raptors "We the North" campaign is brilliant marketing. They play their exhibition games across Canada in almost all the provinces. They earned it and NHL Clubs do the same to some extend.

What has those 3 clubs done? Nothing near that level of involvement in other Canadian markets. They behaved like we belong to them and "a to do" project. With CPL, this laziness and arrogance backfired big time. They got what they deserve, they mainly stayed in their own markets and that's what they will end up having.Too late now to go after the rest of the country.

8 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

My point being that the 3 MLS teams do yield benefits from all of the markets outside of the big 3 urban areas.  And they will feel the impact of footy fans in those areas migrating to support their local CPL teams - in terms of TV viewership, merch sales, academy partnerships, etc.  It won't be some fatal blow to their business model, but I absolutely believe that it will erode their support outside their home markets, and that the erosion of that support will matter

Yep, exactly

[nolbertos]

3 minutes ago, ThiKu said:

Victoria having a franchise would be a good move - but the best bet for success in BC is placing the team in North Surrey near the skytrain, or Burnaby also near the skytrain.

You know I initially thought Langley or Abbotsford is a good fit, but seeing how badly the WFC2 attendance woes are and they are playing Canadian youngsters on the team, the Fraser Valleyians, as I'd call them as they're not really associating with Metro van, aren't supporting them in mass.  Guess that's a big red flag for ant future team wanting to expand there.  Burnaby is Whitecaps fan territory, being close to Van.  But Swangard stadium might accomodate, but someone in the Caps forum stated a reason why the WFC2 side didn't move there initially was because the City of Burnaby wouldn't accomodate the WFC2 dates, and put public events on the front burner.

[matty]

4 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

Regarding the Whitecaps, they didn't mess up, when they were a USL side, they had no business in entering other provinces.  Once they joined MLS, they were more concerned about being compettve and getting their local academy running.  One of the reasons they expanded across Canada was, MLS gave them the territory on paper to recruit anyone from BC to Manitoba.  They later realized it was too much costs to fly around all the provinces to notice local talents, so they formed partnerships and mini-academies per say to give local kida a shot ti impress without flying to Van.

If they did view western Canada as their market for reasons outside of player recruitment, which is the case it seems, they did shit job.

7 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

....Regarding BC, don't know where you get your info but the Caps brand is 40 ys years strong from the NASL days.  People don't just magically support other teams not named Caps nowadays in the futbol market.  On the Island, maybe the Islanders brand, don't know as I'm not familiar with the history of Van Island futbol, but good luck to any CPL franchise here in BC.  Like I stated earlier, Victoria would be a better fit for a CPL franchise than anywhere on the mainland.

I know they have 40~ years of history and agree with you (I was about to sayto Ansem Whitecaps are pretty firming established in BC culture so I don't think they messed up in BC). I think putting a team on the mainland there is a massive risk and I think most people here agree Victoria is a better bet.