Kent Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 How much TV money does each team in MLS make? Since we aren't sure if CPL will actually get any money for any TV coverage they get, it might be interesting to re-run your numbers with the MLS TV money subtracted from the revenues. No doubt equally shared revenue like that is a big part of the reason why smaller markets earn more money per capita than the bigger markets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeAgent Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said: I'd probably go with a median as opposed to an average if you're going to do it that way, which looks to be Montreal's $5.86. Using an average lets outliers like RSL vastly skew things. You'd also need to account for shorter season - I doubt it would start earlier than NASL, so cut off a couple home games there, and it would probably end a bit earlier too. Advertising revenue (including broadcasting) is another big part which the CPL won't have a lot of, which might not be a direct correlation with population. I'm not quite sure how you get 2590 in attendance = $2.5m in revenue. I guess you're saying that each butt in a seat can be counted on for ($ ticket sales) + ($ merch/concession sales) + ($ advertising revenue) x (# home games) on average. EDIT: Might also be worthwhile to compare to MLS 1.0 revenue levels, which wouldn't have had a lot of the reach they have today. Adjusted for Median numbers: Metro Pop Revenue Based on Average $/Population Median Min Revenue Max Halifax 403390 $ 3,290,118 $ 2,359,832 $ 1,017,698 $ 8,394,194 Edmonton 1321426 $ 10,777,778 $ 7,730,342 $ 3,333,778 $ 27,497,723 Calgary 1392609 $ 11,358,359 $ 8,146,763 $ 3,513,363 $ 28,978,979 Hamilton 721053 $ 5,881,033 $ 4,218,160 $ 1,819,118 $ 15,004,484 Ottawa 1323783 $ 10,797,002 $ 7,744,131 $ 3,339,724 $ 27,546,770 Winnipeg 811874 $ 6,621,784 $ 4,749,463 $ 2,048,247 $ 16,894,390 I'll make a post about my assumptions shortly. Should be working right now lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeAgent Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Assumptions are (mind you, when I initially started this it was months ago so no confirmation of how many teams in the league) - 8 teams - $20 price per ticket - 14 Home Games (so 28 league + cup games - might be aggressive) - assumed ticket's sold = tickets paid for - did not include In-Game Revenue (food & concessions/merchandise) - TV Revenue (based on current MLS TV Deal - $30M per year / 10 / 8 (10 USA/CAN multiplier, 8 teams in league) - $375k/team - Jersey Sponsorship of $4.8M/8 teams (I think I got that from some MLS clubs) - $600k/team - League Sponsorship (MLS is $48M - so $4.8M/8/2 - $300k/team (Not sure if this will be included if teams aren't Franchised) - and assuming teams have their own stadium - $500k for stadium naming rights Some comparisons for stadium naming rights: Landsdowne Park in Ottawa: “It sounds like a big number and it is a big number, but it’s important to remember that that’s over 30 years, and that’s an inflated dollar, so you’re looking at something like a million dollars a year in 2015 and then over the 30 years it inflates up to an amount that over the 30 years gives you the $50 million,” Kirkpatrick said Wednesday. Other examples: The length of the contract makes an important difference. The naming rights to the Air Canada Centre in Toronto were worth $30 million over 20 years, or $1.5 million a year. The rights to BMO Field in Toronto went for $2.37 million a year. Telus offered about $1.75 million a year over 20 years for the naming rights to B.C. Place stadium in Vancouver (plus more for other sponsorship rights). Ottawa is smaller but not that much smaller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopherbashi Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 League Sponsorship is money that MLS makes by their own means that they pass down to the teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeAgent Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Assumptions for Expenses (this was where I'm expecting to be largely off): - $500k staff expenses - $1M player expenses - $550k Field Maintenance - $450k Travel & Accomodation - Total - approx $2.5M - Approx estimate for USL teams I found was $1.5M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeAgent Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said: League Sponsorship is money that MLS makes by their own means that they pass down to the teams? This is where I got that number: League sponsorship. MLS boast 18 sponsors, and the largest deal is with Adidas currently worth $25 million a year. The new Heineken deal was reported at $10 million a year and the Audi deal is said to be worth $2-3 million. Allowing an average of $2 million for the remaining 15 deals, gives an annual league sponsorship revenue of about $68 million. But sponsors do not pay all of this in cash. Non-cash in-kind support probably accounts for one third of the total, so cash revenues are probably closer to $45 million. http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/?p=692 I based my estimate on half that amount if I remember correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Think it would be more realistic (and probably still somewhat optimistic) to use NASL or USL numbers for broadcasting and sponsorship revenues rather than using MLS as the comparison. Only Halifax seem to have an SSS in the works so naming rights won't be a factor elsewhere and game day revenues will tend to go mainly to whoever owns the stadium used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyslexic nam Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I tend to agree that MLS revenue figures probably can't be used as any kind of barometer for potential CPL revenues in the early years. The markets are very different, the product may be very different, and MLS spent a lot of years in the financial wilderness before picking up the kind of steam that now makes it a healthy league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 2 hours ago, Gopherbashi said: DPs are the least of our worries - just imagine the rage we'll all feel when someone comes up with no-pay contracts for young players to save on expenses, maintain MLS Canadian roster eligibility, or keep NCAA eligibility. We've seen the standards slip with OFFC in the few years since they made they were bought by OSEG; I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more ambitious or ideal targets we've heard for this league don't similarly fall away in favour of expense cutting after a few seasons. I mentioned dps because we were talking about not giving the league proper marketing but yes no pay would be shit and should no be accepted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeAgent Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Kent said: How much TV money does each team in MLS make? Since we aren't sure if CPL will actually get any money for any TV coverage they get, it might be interesting to re-run your numbers with the MLS TV money subtracted from the revenues. No doubt equally shared revenue like that is a big part of the reason why smaller markets earn more money per capita than the bigger markets. Excluding the TV Revenue, breakeven attendance (again, assuming all paid for) is 3929. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeAgent Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 23 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: Think it would be more realistic (and probably still somewhat optimistic) to use NASL or USL numbers for broadcasting and sponsorship revenues rather than using MLS as the comparison. Only Halifax seem to have an SSS in the works so naming rights won't be a factor elsewhere and game day revenues will tend to go mainly to whoever owns the stadium used. 16 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said: I tend to agree that MLS revenue figures probably can't be used as any kind of barometer for potential CPL revenues in the early years. The markets are very different, the product may be very different, and MLS spent a lot of years in the financial wilderness before picking up the kind of steam that now makes it a healthy league. I agree that using NASL or USL might give a better estimate but I can't find those numbers. A lot of MLS numbers are public so I used that as a basis. Regarding ownership of stadium, not owning the stadium might take away naming rights revenue, but it would also reduce maintenance and upkeep costs throughout the year as well but rent would be included. Not exactly sure how much teams spend on maintaining their stadium. Also if the owners are the CFL owners, don't CFL teams own their stadiums as well? I also haven't included any on field advertising revenue (sideboards etc., not sure how much is made from those). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopherbashi Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 The only two NASL teams which I know sponsorship revenue for are $1m each. There wasn't info for Ottawa last year... I seem to recall hearing $500k, but I have no clue if I imagined that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Soccer_League#Sponsorship Surprisingly high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolbertos Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 13 minutes ago, FreeAgent said: Also if the owners are the CFL owners, don't CFL teams own their stadiums as well? Well let's see McMahon Stadium - Calgary, AB - Owned by McMahon Stadium society, which is composed of civic officials, so the CFL owners don't own that Commonwealth Stadium - Edmonton, AB - Owned by the province, so again public space Investors Group Field - Winnipeg, MB - Owned partially by province, city and Blue Bombers ownership, so CFL owner doesn't collect full revenue So far almost none of the CFL owners own the stadium or are minority partners. If they want to follow the SSS model, like MLS did, they'll need deeper pockets than Lamar Hunt, Philip Anschutz had to make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopherbashi Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 On another note, does anyone know which super-rich multi-billionaire S|E|A is partnering with for the Halifax team? I heard we had multi-billionaires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyslexic nam Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said: On another note, does anyone know which super-rich multi-billionaire S|E|A is partnering with for the Halifax team? I heard we had multi-billionaires. It could be me. I will have to talk to my people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 2 hours ago, FreeAgent said: Assumptions for Expenses (this was where I'm expecting to be largely off): - $500k staff expenses - $1M player expenses - $550k Field Maintenance - $450k Travel & Accomodation - Total - approx $2.5M - Approx estimate for USL teams I found was $1.5M If gate revenue can support a $2.5M operating budget (and I think you're a bit light there as this is going to vary from location to location widely) everyone is going to be happy. If other revenues can cover the league operating budget everyone is going to be even happier. Way happier. Fingers and toes crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 If the isl can get a canadian tv deal for its debut season so can the cpl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Can we stop presuming we know what billionaires intends to do with their money? If a CPL Toronto owner wants to overpay to get the best staff and most talented players he can find so he can bring a championship before TFC does, who are we to assume that he won't do that so he can put his team on the media map right from the get go? If you're looking at making money from day 1 and controlling costs as much as possible, you're in the wrong business. It's safe to assume that those who jumped in aren't afraid to spend and lose money at first... It crap on the pitch and people will treat as such. Put quality and people will treat it as such. They are billionaires for a reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDNFootballer Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: Think it would be more realistic (and probably still somewhat optimistic) to use NASL or USL numbers for broadcasting and sponsorship revenues rather than using MLS as the comparison. Only Halifax seem to have an SSS in the works so naming rights won't be a factor elsewhere and game day revenues will tend to go mainly to whoever owns the stadium used. Depends on the deal made with the stadium owner. Naming rights can be negotiated in and in NASL for instance the Miami FC rent FIU but receive 100% of revenue from concession, beer, and parking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuillermoDelQuarto Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 im sure theres probably a thread for this, but still. curious how serious these reports are http://www.tsn.ca/report-everton-eyes-cmnt-s-larin-1.707238 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominic94 Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Heard player budget will start off at 1.5M, they want a level of play higher than USL/NASL. say 28 man roster... average player salary of 53k... not great, where does that compare to USL ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levi Oakey Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Average player salary in USL is 20k. Or at least was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominic94 Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Double, is a good start then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazlo_80 Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Interested to see how that works for the first season they pay them a full season salary for half the season? Otherwise how the heck do you sign players? man this is awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeAgent Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 10 hours ago, Dominic94 said: Heard player budget will start off at 1.5M, they want a level of play higher than USL/NASL. say 28 man roster... average player salary of 53k... not great, where does that compare to USL ? I think teams can get away with having 20-22 contracts ($1-$1.1M for smaller teams) - perhaps through Loan deals or Youth contracts. So there would be some opportunity to control the budget that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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