Levi Oakey Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 9 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: You know you are well and truly through the looking glass when North York Rockets crowds are being used as an argument in support of a new Canadian pro soccer league. Any time I was at their games (including during the 1991 season) the crowd was in the dozens rather than in the hundreds or thousands. They had almost zero regular home support. The Blizzard had a few hundred regulars and could draw higher than that into the low thousands when the Whitecaps were involved, but the GTA team that had the biggest regular following in that era was probably Toronto Croatia of the NSL, who Dale Barnes and the CSL in their infinite wisdom decided to reject as an applicant along with Toronto Italia (lots of sponsors, but not so many fans) because of intransigence over club names, when either of those clubs would have had more to offer than the North York Rockets did. I have a Croatian buddy at work who talks about this era and what he considers to be "casual racism". He specifically believes that the CSA was trying to exclude cultural clubs. He has a lot of underlying hate from that era. Says the CSA didn't want to help the migrant communities at all. One thing I will say is the current group involved with the CPL will not be of that same mindset. In fact, they will be quite the opposite, but we will need to convince people. There is still a lot of animosity from that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheo Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Oh I agree he's a bit over the top for me and I'm optimistic when it comes to the CPL. However a lot has changed in 26 years not only in the country. From the perception of the sport to the general public, to the demographics of Canada. Will the league work when it starts? No one knows for sure. But to outrightly dismiss it at every turn for every such reason based on past failures is really foolish and tiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, Rheo said: ...Will the league work when it starts? No one knows for sure. But to outrightly dismiss it at every turn for every such reason based on past failures is really foolish and tiring. Who is doing that? The main reason for skepticism lies very much in the present day and revolves around the fact that the three MLS teams are clearly not going anywhere and that makes the three largest markets unlikely to work. Given even Edmonton and Ottawa don't seem to be aboard, there's really not a lot left at that point in terms of viable markets for a big budget league operating on budgets comparable to those of the NASL, if they choose to treat MLS as a rival rather than trying to work with it by taking in MLS affiliates and opting for a lower budget developmental focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 If this CPL angle doesn't fly, Bob Young would rather go the NASL direction rather than developmental with USL affiliates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyslexic nam Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 LOL. Hadn't checked in on this thread for a bit since I wanted to give it a break. I come back and we are still driving around this same goddamned traffic circle. For the love of god, someone exit right... For the record BBTB, every Voyageur on this board now knows where you stand on CPL. They know you are skeptical, they know why you are skeptical, and they know what you think needs to happen for it to be viable. I don't understand the need to restate your position ad infinitum in the context of others who clearly want to do a bit of blue-sky thinking about what a Canadian league might look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 35 minutes ago, Levi Oakey said: One thing I will say is the current group involved with the CPL will not be of that same mindset... I've heard John McGrane on a podcast going through the old mantra about having no ethnic clubs, so not sure the mindsets have completely moved on, but really in the present day there is no need because most of the people from the 50s and 60s immigration wave that fueled the growth of the NSL in the 70s to a point that it put a serious dent into the crowds that could be attracted to the NASL in Toronto aren't around any more and their children and grandchildren don't follow local semi-pro soccer to any significant extent. That second and third generation demographic were a big part of what drove the success of TFC in crowd terms back in 2007 in an "All for one" sort of way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheo Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimliJetsMan Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 3 hours ago, m-g-williams said: This is probably just wishful thinking, but here goes nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Rheo said: No clue but I find it interesting. I didn't listen to the interview he's been pimping the last couple of days from the weekend so no clue if there was anything there. I agree that I don't think ianything is days away but ust seems to be a bunch more solid stuff out lately (Manning saying "when", the Larson article itself) as well as Totera being more excited than normal (which is saying something) that has me a bit more optimistic that we might hear something concrete sooner than later (although that's probably foolish given the track record lol) I did. It was primarily a brief discussion on what CPL will be, why it's needed, and a surprisingly respectful critique of Bill Manning's position. To be honest, I was surprised, Totera's 'Red Card" personality didn't translate over to radio, he was much more mellow One thing that did happen was that the host said something along the lines of, "OK, so we are looking at Victoria, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Ottawa, Toronto, and Halifax?" and Totera replied "and some surprises in Ontario" I am probably getting the quote a little wrong, and it could easily be that Totera didn't want to get into the messiness of explaining Edmonton and Ottawa in a short interview, but it was interesting that he didn't correct the host on that portion As for the date... Beirne gave the supporters groups a window for the announcement, and there's still a little waiting left. I'm certain Totera knows that too, so not sure what he'd be getting at with that one tweet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheo Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 11 minutes ago, Complete Homer said: I did. It was primarily a brief discussion on what CPL will be, why it's needed, and a surprisingly respectful critique of Bill Manning's position. To be honest, I was surprised, Totera's 'Red Card" personality didn't translate over to radio, he was much more mellow One thing that did happen was that the host said something along the lines of, "OK, so we are looking at Victoria, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Ottawa, Toronto, and Halifax?" and Totera replied "and some surprises in Ontario" I am probably getting the quote a little wrong, and it could easily be that Totera didn't want to get into the messiness of explaining Edmonton and Ottawa in a short interview, but it was interesting that he didn't correct the host on that portion As for the date... Beirne gave the supporters groups a window for the announcement, and there's still a little waiting left. I'm certain Totera knows that too, so not sure what he'd be getting at with that one tweet That's shocking him being mellow lol. I appreciate his passion, just gets to be a bit much at times. Thanks for filling me in on what was on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, Rheo said: That's shocking him being mellow lol. I appreciate his passion, just gets to be a bit much at times. Thanks for filling me in on what was on. Yup. He's got passion and one of the surprisingly few who write more than fluff pieces about Canadian soccer (especially after losing a key mainstream media guy in Marc Weber), but his Red Card personality is just a little to loud for me That said, after listening to a little Italian-Canadian radio yesterday, I'm wondering if he's just spent most of his life having to shout to be heard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, Complete Homer said: One thing that did happen was that the host said something along the lines of, "OK, so we are looking at Victoria, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Ottawa, Toronto, and Halifax?" and Totera replied "and some surprises in Ontario" Only way Edmonton happens is rich investors buying out Fath or partnering with Fath. It's easier than starting from scratch. Fury makes sense. Ontario surprises? One should be Kitchener-Waterloo, and the other could be an investor partnering with FC London's owner Ian Campbell (born in Scotland). Those are huge opportunity to go to the next level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 On 16/02/2017 at 0:42 AM, Steedman said: CPL will be a hit, but we know they've made it big when CPL B starts up. Sorry for the almost week late response (I was in Cuba with no internet for a week, so I'm about 700 pages behind on this thread), but it won't be CPL B, it's CDL (Canadian Deuxième League). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 27 minutes ago, Kent said: it won't be CPL B, it's CDL (Canadian Deuxième League). This is a good topic to discuss as the CSA will need to address the D2 spot sooner or later. Which model should be considered by the CSA? A-"AHL" type League or B-Standalone D2 League Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuillermoDelQuarto Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Is it just me or does Canada soccer post too much? Like sometimes less is more I dunno. I wanna follow them but holy fuck they go live so often they're like an attention deprived teenage girl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 15 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said: Is it just me or does Canada soccer post too much? Like sometimes less is more I dunno. I wanna follow them but holy fuck they go live so often they're like an attention deprived teenage girl It's to make them look busy and keep us from asking questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuillermoDelQuarto Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, matty said: It's to make them look busy and keep us from asking questions lol they just seem like they're trying a little too hard honestly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masster Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 9 hours ago, Complete Homer said: For BC, I'm generally doubtful, but I'll defer to BC based posters who have presented the opinion that Surrey or Vancouver Island present sufficiently differentiated and large communities that they can build their own identity. As a BC poster...I believe that Surrey and the surrounding area is a large enough community, but I do not think it is sufficiently differentiated. I believe that Vancouver Island (specifically the Victoria area) is sufficiently differentiated, but I don't think it is large enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuillermoDelQuarto Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 18 minutes ago, masster said: As a BC poster...I believe that Surrey and the surrounding area is a large enough community, but I do not think it is sufficiently differentiated. I believe that Vancouver Island (specifically the Victoria area) is sufficiently differentiated, but I don't think it is large enough. what better to differentiate it than a soccer club to rally around. If surrey is as ethnically diverse as everyone says it is there should at least be a decent amount of soccer fans to draw on, even if they might turn their nose down at a local product initially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmfranck Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 10 hours ago, Ansem said: I had posted this a while back regarding a Montreal team A case for a CPL Montreal team: I had discussions with friends in Montreal and they are of the opposite opinion that a CPL Montreal team could indeed work based on theses factors: Location: CPL stadium MUST be downtown, and ideally use the McGill Percival Molson stadium or build a new one. The Saputo stadium where the Impact plays right now is in Eastern Montreal, next to the Olympic Stadium on the green subway line. It`s not the most ideal place for people to get there, and quite frankly, I always thought it was an odd location to pick. Montreal Impact Potential downtown CPL venue Downtown has 3 metro lines with another one on the way. With links to South shore, Laval, the whole Island, downtown business area and literally being the heart of the city, this location is very convenient to just hop on the metro and go see a game. Percival Molson Stadium of McGill University on the mountain: Perfect for TV 25 000 seats Establishing a rivalry right away : What`s hotter than a Toronto-Montreal rivalry? Quebec City. CPL Quebec City vs. Montreal CPL are automatic sellouts! The hate between those cities transcends sports and a CPL Quebec City playing against a CPL Montreal downtown team would create instant classics which would make the Montreal Impact jealous. CPL Toronto vs. CPL Montreal is also a vital rivalry that the league needs. Local content: Nothing sells more, especially in Quebec than having local players helping their team win. TV Contract: You need the Montreal to increase the value of said TV Contract. Expect the TV ratings to be very high when they play Quebec City and Toronto. Ownership: Montreal Canadiens & Molson Family for CPL Montreal would be the best case scenario. Attaching the Montreal Brand with a CPL Montreal team would immediately turn head and get the city's attention. Call them Canadiens if you must. They have the resources and expertise to rival Montreal Impact on the marketing side and how to run a sport franchise. Saputo is very rich and respected but not at Molson's level Let me start by saying, that it's a pretty solid case, and it may end up being what is recognized as the best option by an eventual ownership group. Personally, i have a preference for another location. I dont know if I shouldve started a thread specifically for a Montréal team at this point, but regardless, here goes. Negatives : - Access : Although you might get the impression looking at a map that Percival Molson is, since being downtown, easy to access, it isnt. It's a 1,5 km walk from the closest métro station, and its uphill. It is picturesque having a stadium on a mountain side, but it comes with it's load of inconvenience. - Team identity : Since Montréal already have a soccer team, it's inevitable that a new team would be defined by comparison to the Impact. I feel that having a team on McGill grounds will create a sort of franco-anglo divide. Obviously the Impact have a very franco identity in terms of the imagery of the club and it's geographical location only adds to that image. (east end is mostly all franco) So putting a team in McGill territory might make it the "de facto" favorite for anglos. It's not a totally horrible thought, as it would add an element of rivalry, but I personally wouldn't like it. Some might point to the Alouettes already playing there, and this not being an issue. The difference is that the Al's dont have a cross town rival to identify themselves to by opposition. - Stadium size : 30k! Recently, the Alouettes have had more and more of a hard time filling out the stadium themselves. I have a hard time imagining a new non-MLS (i am a CanPL supporter, just being realistic here) team attracting even half of that audience. Even the Impact aren't impervious to experiencing difficulties filling out 22k Saputo. Positives : - Existing infrastucture (if it's Percival Molson stadium): This one is pretty straight forward. Zero spending necessary for the new ownership (except for rental fees obviously). - Familiarity : People will be familiar with its location, and many of the new supporters will have gone to a CFL game there and will be able to picture themselves having a great time there. ================================================================================= My preference : CEPSUM Stadium. Similar to Percival Molson stadium, it is a football university stadium, but this time for Université de Montréal. It is EXACTLY the other side of Mont Royal from the McGill stadium. - Accessibility : Contrary to Percival Molson, the CEPSUM has a métro station DIRECTLY linked to it (less than 100 meters). Not only that, but that métro station will soon be linked with the new electrical train that will connect the west island, the north shore, downtown and the south shore. Which means that the west island (who have been complaining non stop since 1976 that the Olympic stadium is too far east) would have a direct métro link to that stadium. No more than a 15 mins ride. This new system would also connect to downtown with a 3 mins ride. - Stadium size : At 5,100 it's definitely on the small size of what we'd expect to get for CanPL games, but the stadium is in need of an update actually. The south stand is dwarved by its northern neighbour, and could use some expansion. Université de Montréal are in the midst of a very large expansion, and wouldnt be adversed to expanding their stadium given the governments or private sector help with the funding a little. - It's AS beautiful: Similar to Percival Molson, it's on the mountain side and has a very nice view to all that sweet sweet foliage. - It would be in different neighbourhoods than the Impact : The Percival Molson stadium, although far from the Olympic village, is located pretty much near the same neighbourhoods. They are the french neighbourhoods of Saint-Marie-St-Jacques (plateau Mont-Royal, Centre-Sud, and Hochelaga-Maisonneuve). The Cepsum, on the other hand, is located in a totally different area of Montréal. It's pretty interesting too because its at the cross roads of three very distinctive buroughs : Ville Mont-Royal (a high end english neighbourhood), Outremont (a high end, but also partly student inhabited neighbourhood) and Côte-des-Neiges (a 100% immigrant neighbourhood). I definitely think this eclectical and diverse area would serve a new football club well. On top of that, the métro to Cepsum is on the blue line. Which means other "urban core" boroughs that might feel Percival Molson is far will be directly linked to the stadium (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce, Hampstead, Saint-Michel). ======================================================================== Sorry for dragging on for so long, but here's my take on where the Montréal team could operate from. As for the ownership group, I'd rather it be a consortium of businessmen who decide to take it on. But who am I kidding. I'd be a bit afraid with a Molson ownership. The habs have such a monopoly in this city, and I'd fear the CanPL club would just be an afterthought to the Molson family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazlo_80 Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Totera is dropping alot of vague tweets lately...more than usual. Maybe news is on the way. Or maybe not. Who the heck knows at this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasshopper1917 Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 6 hours ago, Kent said: I don't know why, but I'm getting hung up on this claim. I assume you mean per capita, but even that I can't seem to find support for. It's probably right up there though. Possibly it's neck and neck between greater Halifax and metro KWC. If you take Waterloo by itself though, I think it would far outperform Halifax proper. Obviously if you get rid of per capita, Toronto has the most students. Yea I think I said that without thinking. While we have a ton of students here by sheer volume im sure Montreal and Toronto would have more in total. I guess really what I should have said is we have a strong base of students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopherbashi Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Ansem said: This is a good topic to discuss as the CSA will need to address the D2 spot sooner or later. Which model should be considered by the CSA? A-"AHL" type League or B-Standalone D2 League I suspect an AHL type league would be more likely - some CPL academy system. I don't see how a startup standalone D2 league would offer an on- or off-field quality substantially different from the existing D3, but I wouldn't rule out an organic growth from the cream of the existing D3s into something a step above everyone else at that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 2 hours ago, fmfranck said: Let me start by saying, that it's a pretty solid case, and it may end up being what is recognized as the best option by an eventual ownership group. Personally, i have a preference for another location. I dont know if I shouldve started a thread specifically for a Montréal team at this point, but regardless, here goes. Negatives : - Access : Although you might get the impression looking at a map that Percival Molson is, since being downtown, easy to access, it isnt. It's a 1,5 km walk from the closest métro station, and its uphill. It is picturesque having a stadium on a mountain side, but it comes with it's load of inconvenience. - Team identity : Since Montréal already have a soccer team, it's inevitable that a new team would be defined by comparison to the Impact. I feel that having a team on McGill grounds will create a sort of franco-anglo divide. Obviously the Impact have a very franco identity in terms of the imagery of the club and it's geographical location only adds to that image. (east end is mostly all franco) So putting a team in McGill territory might make it the "de facto" favorite for anglos. It's not a totally horrible thought, as it would add an element of rivalry, but I personally wouldn't like it. Some might point to the Alouettes already playing there, and this not being an issue. The difference is that the Al's dont have a cross town rival to identify themselves to by opposition. - Stadium size : 30k! Recently, the Alouettes have had more and more of a hard time filling out the stadium themselves. I have a hard time imagining a new non-MLS (i am a CanPL supporter, just being realistic here) team attracting even half of that audience. Even the Impact aren't impervious to experiencing difficulties filling out 22k Saputo. Positives : - Existing infrastucture (if it's Percival Molson stadium): This one is pretty straight forward. Zero spending necessary for the new ownership (except for rental fees obviously). - Familiarity : People will be familiar with its location, and many of the new supporters will have gone to a CFL game there and will be able to picture themselves having a great time there. ================================================================================= My preference : CEPSUM Stadium. Similar to Percival Molson stadium, it is a football university stadium, but this time for Université de Montréal. It is EXACTLY the other side of Mont Royal from the McGill stadium. - Accessibility : Contrary to Percival Molson, the CEPSUM has a métro station DIRECTLY linked to it (less than 100 meters). Not only that, but that métro station will soon be linked with the new electrical train that will connect the west island, the north shore, downtown and the south shore. Which means that the west island (who have been complaining non stop since 1976 that the Olympic stadium is too far east) would have a direct métro link to that stadium. No more than a 15 mins ride. This new system would also connect to downtown with a 3 mins ride. - Stadium size : At 5,100 it's definitely on the small size of what we'd expect to get for CanPL games, but the stadium is in need of an update actually. The south stand is dwarved by its northern neighbour, and could use some expansion. Université de Montréal are in the midst of a very large expansion, and wouldnt be adversed to expanding their stadium given the governments or private sector help with the funding a little. - It's AS beautiful: Similar to Percival Molson, it's on the mountain side and has a very nice view to all that sweet sweet foliage. - It would be in different neighbourhoods than the Impact : The Percival Molson stadium, although far from the Olympic village, is located pretty much near the same neighbourhoods. They are the french neighbourhoods of Saint-Marie-St-Jacques (plateau Mont-Royal, Centre-Sud, and Hochelaga-Maisonneuve). The Cepsum, on the other hand, is located in a totally different area of Montréal. It's pretty interesting too because its at the cross roads of three very distinctive buroughs : Ville Mont-Royal (a high end english neighbourhood), Outremont (a high end, but also partly student inhabited neighbourhood) and Côte-des-Neiges (a 100% immigrant neighbourhood). I definitely think this eclectical and diverse area would serve a new football club well. On top of that, the métro to Cepsum is on the blue line. Which means other "urban core" boroughs that might feel Percival Molson is far will be directly linked to the stadium (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce, Hampstead, Saint-Michel). ======================================================================== Sorry for dragging on for so long, but here's my take on where the Montréal team could operate from. As for the ownership group, I'd rather it be a consortium of businessmen who decide to take it on. But who am I kidding. I'd be a bit afraid with a Molson ownership. The habs have such a monopoly in this city, and I'd fear the CanPL club would just be an afterthought to the Molson family. You've sold me on CEPSUM for sure. Differentiate from Impact with a different neighborhood, good mix of established and new Canadians, easy transit access...I don't see a 5100 capacity as a major downside. You're better off trying to pack it in at 5000 than looking half empty at 10k or worse. If the day comes that they outgrow it, maybe they can work on an agreement with the university to splt expansion costs Any chance it is known if the football lines are permanent at CEPSUM? The real issue is of course an owner, and there hasn't even been a peep about a potential Montreal owner. Hope that changes. The Molsons are the obvious ones, but I wonder if Gillet could have his interest piqued. Even if he's american, he's got a long history of involvement with Montreal sports, was originally an investor in the Impact's MLS bid, owned a famous EPL club... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmfranck Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I forgot to mention : the CEPSUM is actually where an PLSQ team (CSMRO) plays right now. Checking their highlights from a game they played against the Haiti national team, I see the football lines are still there. That's a big problem indeed if these lines are permanent. As far as ownership goes, i wouldnt be against Gillette owning it, but I doubt he'd be interested sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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