Canadian Premier League

[BuzzAndSting]

9 minutes ago, Zem said:

Not being heavily involved in the running of the club doesn't mean they don't get a vote in what the club does, and I would imagine that if anyone in the organisation wanted to penny-pinch it would be the guys who invested a lot but aren't particularly interested in running the team.

John Pugh is definitely the most business-savvy when it comes to operating a soccer club, but he is a junior investor in OSEG. Moreover Hunt, Greenberg and Ruddy don't have any obvious interest in soccer, and Shenkman is only a minority owner of Millwall among many other investments, so there's not much reason to think the other members would be willing to whole-heartedly support the group's only money-losing project.

 

That's almost certainly not philanthropy, it's an attempt to grow the fanbase by getting people who are already interested in soccer to come to games. More importantly, the club has obviously taken plenty of cost-saving measures in the last couple years, so I can't see how giving away tickets to people who probably wouldn't come to games otherwise makes OSEG "not cheap."

John Pugh was strategic partnership brought in specifically to help run the soccer team. Jeff Hunt is definitely a soccer fan and has been at the forefront of the push pro soccer to Ottawa from the very beginning. Shenkman is minority but involved owner of Millwall by choice. 

In terms of the tickets, that's exactly my point. They give away free tickets now to help build the fan base and I think they's been successful with that. They've shown they're willing to sacrifice now for potentially higher revenue later. In terms of the cost saving measures, I think the Fury might have seen the writing on the wall in the NASL before we did and that's why they've made some of the choices they have.

 

[BuzzAndSting]

12 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Perhaps this conversation could take place in the Fury to USL thread? There's actually interesting news today, would suck to see it drowned out by a flame war

Not trying to get into any kind of war. I just bothers me when I read speculation and opinion posted as facts and supposed truths. 

Anyway, my apologies for hijacking this thread with OFFC specific discussion. 

I'll post it here that I fully expect to see the Fury as part of the CPL in year one. Knowing the kind of guys that OSEG are it makes total sense for them and I think they'll be successful. 

[Complete Homer]

Also interesting today on SPN was talk that at least part of Fath's resistance to CPL is, at least partly, related to a personal grudge with Bob Young. While they didn't elaborate, I think it is probably reasonable to speculate that it is connected to Young pulling out of an NASL expansion and/or something happened during the past negotiations of making a Canadian NASL division (that later became a very different vision for a league).

Could go a ways in explaining Fath's attitude (conveyed via Sandor) even amidst the collapse of the NASL

[toontownman]

No Regina team... because it's happening in Saskatoon! 

Seriously though, no Saskatchewan representation and I riot. 

[marauder01]

2 hours ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

these guys retweeted the article from today as well.... not a bad sign

Not that it matters in any way, but they've been following the Battalion twitter account for quite some time. Also not a bad sign.

Edit: not as long as I thought. Just a month.

[Rintaran]

1 hour ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Well I highly doubt Ruddy, Shenkman and Greenberg are putting they're multi million doller development companies on hold to run the local D2 soccer team so who do you think is running the show? Hunt? Then why would they have partnered with the Fury to begin with? Why wouldn't they have just started "Generic D2 United?"

No offence but do you have any actual knowledge of the situation or are you just speculating?

I have some knowledge of the situation circa 2014. Things may have changed, but doubt it changed much.

It's very true re: Ruddy, Shenkman & Greenberg. For them, the investment is in OSEG's real estate offerings (the blocks around TD Place), but they're hands-off partners for the Redblacks, 67s, and Fury portions of the endeavour. Hunt though, he does keep Pugh in hand.

Pugh is very much a mouthpiece for the Fury, and he did great with getting them off the ground. They leveraged the well-known PDL & women's team in order to build a small, but dedicated instant fan base. And then they murdered the women's team as one of the first cuts to expenses (before even launching the PLSQ side). The women's side did not match Hunt's vision for TD Place's "other" tenant, so they had to go. Pugh handles many of the top-end decisions, but ultimately something huge like an affiliation agreement, the canning of the academy, the dismantling of the women's side, that's Hunt pulling the strings trying to reign in some of OSEG's expenses. Although Pugh is definitely valuable to OSEG, he's quite a minor partner. Yes, Pugh is running the show with the Fury, unless his vision runs counter to Hunt.

This was actually one of the things that was explained to me at my very first briefing at Carleton University in advance of the 1st fall-season Fury NASL match. It was further reinforced during my Team Lead training at TD Place, and tracked with the "who's who" reference cards all ushers & TLs were required to familiarize themselves with. Additionally, as one of the 1st TLs for the "club level" seating, I often had the chance to meet Pugh & Hunt, and there was a very clear chain of command between the two. Heck, even Bernie Ashe (OSEG CEO) & Mark Goudie (OSEG COO & CFO) seemed to have more pull with Hunt than Pugh did.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

5 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

Also interesting today on SPN was talk that at least part of Fath's resistance to CPL is, at least partly, related to a personal grudge with Bob Young. While they didn't elaborate, I think it is probably reasonable to speculate that it is connected to Young pulling out of an NASL expansion and/or something happened during the past negotiations of making a Canadian NASL division (that later became a very different vision for a league)....

Never likely to be easy when you have a group of type A personalities involved, who are all very much used to getting their own way in their other business ventures, which is why the rational outcome such as a USL-NASL merger doesn't always happen smoothly. Think it would actually be fairly reasonable for Ottawa and Edmonton to be of the opinion that Hamilton should follow their lead rather than vice versa, given they have made the effort to field pro level soccer teams that have been able to more than hold their own at the NASL level despite the crazy spending of the Cosmos and have sustained multimillion financial losses in the process. That gives them an insight into what does and doesn't work that you only pick up from direct experience. From what I remember Bob Young was talking about moving into D2 soccer even before Ottawa was first mentioned in that context, but never took the plunge in a Hamilton context.

[masster]

5 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

Also interesting today on SPN was talk that at least part of Fath's resistance to CPL is, at least partly, related to a personal grudge with Bob Young. While they didn't elaborate, I think it is probably reasonable to speculate that it is connected to Young pulling out of an NASL expansion and/or something happened during the past negotiations of making a Canadian NASL division (that later became a very different vision for a league).

Could go a ways in explaining Fath's attitude (conveyed via Sandor) even amidst the collapse of the NASL

What is SPN?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

7 hours ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

this is something

https://www.localxpress.ca/local-sports/pro-soccer-league-wants-to-include-halifax-483627

pretty vague still though.

This is what we should have been seeing in lots of cities by now, if it were anywhere close to being finalized:

https://www.localxpress.ca/local-sports/pro-soccer-league-wants-to-include-halifax-483627

...There are reports that, aside from Halifax, Hamilton, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton and Winnipeg are each being courted for league entry. Beirne wouldn’t speculate on the lineup yet, except for Halifax, but said the early goal is to start with six to eight pro teams from coast to coast.

...

"This gives us an opportunity to play on that stage as national players but in a much more right-sized, reasonable format,” he said. “The plans for this league would be budgets around 6,000 to 8,000 fans per game. I'd always said that's the right size for Halifax. We've proven it for the Mooseheads and with the University Cup. When you start planning for events over 10,000 the numbers don't work. Our population can't sustain that."

...

"It would be about 15 home games a year,” he said of the Canadian Premier League use from late April to November. He said once there was a proper facility other sports, such as rugby and outdoor lacrosse, could be played there and other sporting events brought to the city...

Would love to see something like this work and to be completely wrong about this, but my honest assessment is that you would have to be smoking crack to think you are going to get 6000 to 8000 paid fifteen times a season for D2 level soccer in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Find a way to make the numbers work on 1500 to 2000 and maybe you might get somewhere.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

31 minutes ago, masster said:

What is SPN?

Appears to be these guys:

 

[Complete Homer]

3 hours ago, masster said:

What is SPN?

The Rollins/Laramee podcast. Worth listening to, they get pretty good guests and usually have a little CPL talk every few days

[Rheo]

5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

This is what we should have been seeing in lots of cities by now, if it were anywhere close to being finalized:

 

Must apologize for publicly doubting you on here when you doubted them being close.  Just assumed they'd be further along with owners with the flow of information that was getting out there.  A bit of a bummer it's not as settled as I had thought but I'm still cautiously optimistic things are going the right way

[dyslexic nam]

10 hours ago, toontownman said:

No Regina team... because it's happening in Saskatoon! 

Seriously though, no Saskatchewan representation and I riot. 

Try being an Atlantic Canadian during all of this.

[MtlMario]

6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

This is what we should have been seeing in lots of cities by now, if it were anywhere close to being finalized:

https://www.localxpress.ca/local-sports/pro-soccer-league-wants-to-include-halifax-483627

...There are reports that, aside from Halifax, Hamilton, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton and Winnipeg are each being courted for league entry. Beirne wouldn’t speculate on the lineup yet, except for Halifax, but said the early goal is to start with six to eight pro teams from coast to coast.

...

"This gives us an opportunity to play on that stage as national players but in a much more right-sized, reasonable format,” he said. “The plans for this league would be budgets around 6,000 to 8,000 fans per game. I'd always said that's the right size for Halifax. We've proven it for the Mooseheads and with the University Cup. When you start planning for events over 10,000 the numbers don't work. Our population can't sustain that."

...

"It would be about 15 home games a year,” he said of the Canadian Premier League use from late April to November. He said once there was a proper facility other sports, such as rugby and outdoor lacrosse, could be played there and other sporting events brought to the city...

Would love to see something like this work and to be completely wrong about this, but my honest assessment is that you would have to be smoking crack to think you are going to get 6000 to 8000 paid fifteen times a season for D2 level soccer in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Find a way to make the numbers work on 1500 to 2000 and maybe you might get somewhere.

WHAT A SURPRISE TO HEAR THAT IT WOULD'T WORK IN HALIFAX. I AND PRETTY MUCH EVERYBODY ELSE HERE ARE  SHOCKED.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Helps to use the caps lock key occasionally and please note that I am not questioning whether pro soccer of any description could work in Halifax, only whether it could work with a break even of around 7000 spectators in paid attendance. I'm probably one of the few people posting on here to have watched a soccer team from Halifax playing in a coast-to-coast Canadian soccer league, and would be more than happy to be able to do so again. Hopefully next time around they'll remember that their coach needs a work visa after what happened with Gordon Hill of Manchester United fame

[MtlMario]

That's what I'm mean, that you think that Halifax won't get enough fans to be succesful in the CPL.

[toontownman]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

Try being an Atlantic Canadian during all of this.

To be fair we both only have ourselves to blame. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

It's a relatively small market of under 500,000 and there are still not that many soccer franchises anywhere across North America that are getting 7000 paid on average once you subtract out all the freebies distributed and heavily discounted youth soccer group sales that are used to pad attendance stats. Until relatively recently there were MLS teams that were struggling to do that even if they were announcing higher numbers. 

[Rheo]

3 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

It's a relatively small market of under 500,000 and there are still not that many soccer franchises anywhere across North America that are getting 7000 paid on average once you subtract out all the freebies distributed and heavily discounted youth soccer group sales that are used to pad attendance stats. Until relatively recently there were MLS teams that were struggling to do that even if they were announcing higher numbers. 

Too busy at work to look but hasn't revenue sharing been part of the plan for the league?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Anthony Totera made a tweet along those line, but if Halifax is drawing 2000 doesn't that mean you need somebody else on 12000 to balance it out overall? Only Sacramento and Cincinnati are doing that on announced numbers beyond MLS and the latter have very cheap season tickets as part of their business model.

[Ansem]

On ‎2016‎-‎11‎-‎04 at 11:29 AM, Ansem said:

Moncton, NB

• Metro population was: 135k + in 2011 and 148k in 2015
• Economy: 1.6 million people living within a three-hour drive of the city. Moncton has garnered national attention because of the strength of its economy. The local unemployment rate averages around 6%, which is below the national average. In 2004 Canadian Business Magazine named it "The best city for business in Canada", and in 2007 FDi magazine named it the fifth most business friendly small-sized city in North America. The insurance, information technology, educational, and health care sectors also are major factors in the local economy with the city's two hospitals alone employing over five thousand people. A number of nationally or regionally prominent corporations have their head offices in Moncton including Atlantic Lottery Corporation, Assumption Life Insurance, Medavie Blue Cross Insurance, Armour Transportation Systems and Major Drilling Group International. Moncton also has federal public service employment, with regional head offices for Corrections Canada, Transport Canada, the Gulf Fisheries Centre and the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency.  Several arms of the Irving corporation have their head offices and/or major operations in greater Moncton.
• Sport Scene: There's nothing in the summer except minor leagues, CPL would be unopposed as a major league and could thrive with rivalries with Quebec City (Moncton being a bilingual City), Halifax and St Jonh's. Moncton always drew big crowds for international competitions.

1.6 Millions people within 3 hour drive of Moncton(traffic shouldn't be an issue) is the key figure here as the 148k Metro population can be misleading. As you can see, there's a strong corporate presence in the are, same for St John's

While most people here and out of the forum use our preconceived notion and opinions of the Maritimes, investors will use all those stats to further their decisions. They might not be as populous as other provinces but fans capacity to spend on soccer is the least of the worries. It will be to get corporations involved and get people to massively support their teams, hence 2-3 teams in the maritimes would greatly help achieve that.

 

Just a reminder.

Also, I'd like to think that the Maritimes has changed  and meeting the attendance targets is more than doable if there's an adequate facility. (roof over the seats for protection against the rain would be smart to keep attendance constant

[dyslexic nam]

I preface pretty much every post these days with an acknowledgement of my ignorance.  And this will be no different.

I know little about the cash flow in these situations, but I was under the impression that TV revenues and merch are collectively more important than gate receipts.  No idea how that translates in a small start-up league where all revennue streams are likely important, but I wonder if the core issue is comparing the value of a team that may (or may not - Atlantic Canada tends to surprise people with the level of support we can muster) have reduced ticket sales  versus the value of more robust regional support for a "Canadian" league that ignores an entire region of the country. 

I am biased in this one - it annoys me when CPL is discussed and many proponents have 3 Ontario teams as part of the original 6, and nothing east of Quebec.  Population aside (and I do get the idea of why ON would support 3 teams), something about that strikes me as a bit naive to think that the entire country will rally around a league like that.  Sure, some folks in the Atl region may either cheer for an ON or QC based team if they are really passionate about footy.  Then again, with MLS already in place, there isn't much incentive to jump ship to CPL.  And if you want to ensure only lukewarm interest in the region, pretending it doesn't exist is a great way to start.  From a single-entity-league perspective, it may be the case that one slightly underperforming market may bring enough coast-to-coast coverage and national feel that the league is better off absorbing a bit of a hit than completely neglecting it.  And to be frank, I would question whether or not it would really underperform in comparison to some of the other locations tossed around.

Regina has a population of 193k

Winnipeg = 600k

Saskatoon = 222k

Victoria = 344k

Halifax = 390k.  So more than Regina, Saskatoon, and Victoria.  Throw in the potential drawing capacity of nearby NS towns (add another 100k+ in your  catchment area) and the possibility of road trips from NB (Moncton is 2.5 hrs away) and the supporter pool seems pretty reasonable - especially in the context of some of the other candidates which were dismissed so easily.

Will it work?  No fucking clue.  Does it warrant consideration?  From my extremely biased perspective, hells yeah.  And is it possible that there is a legit business case for a new Canadian league not ignoring 4 provinces?  In my perspective, yes.  If folks want Atlantic Canadians to support the new league, including us would be a pretty basic prerequisite for most.  We tend to get treated like the dim-witted cousin, and speaking as an insider, that isn't a factor that should be underestimated if the league cares about Atlantic Canadian support.

[Rheo]

Ok so revenue sharing is a part of it, thanks.  But presuming that Halifax will have 2000 paid attendance is just pulling a number out of your butt to support your general negative belief in the league and the business plan.  

Time will tell and granted and the eternal optimist but we really need to relax in here and wait for the plan to come out.  Remember other than the CSA and the investors the handful of us on here are the only people who really care about this at the moment.

[Ansem]

Yes revenue sharing makes it easier for smaller markets to survive. Look at all the southern markets in the US for hockey. Revenue sharing is the reason why they are still there and allows the NHL to keep showing us the middle finger to us Canada

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

10 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

...We tend to get treated like the dim-witted cousin, and speaking as an insider, that isn't a factor that should be underestimated if the league cares about Atlantic Canadian support.

Part of the skepticism is due to the demographics involved rather than anything IQ related. Nova Scotia hasn't had the recent waves of immigration from soccer loving countries that southern Ontario, the Montreal area and lower mainland BC have had.