Canadian Premier League

[Kent]

On September 22, 2016 at 5:27 PM, TRM said:

USL collapsed down to a regional D3 and lower set of leagues. They then made the smart move of partnering with the 800 pound gorilla and added (or will add) close to 20 teams with stable ownership. They were the more realistic of the 2 and I think NASL's days are numbered. MLS will always grab their best attended teams and move them up with zero compensation. 

I would always be worried about losses over any extended time period. Even the MLS original owners thought about throwing in the towel on at least one occasion. Look at what they were worth. Successful businessmen will not go long without re-evaluating their positions. That is how they got to be successful. 

It is common for businesses to talk about "double digit growth" meaning 10% or greater.

[Kent]

On September 22, 2016 at 5:27 PM, TRM said:

USL collapsed down to a regional D3 and lower set of leagues. They then made the smart move of partnering with the 800 pound gorilla and added (or will add) close to 20 teams with stable ownership. They were the more realistic of the 2 and I think NASL's days are numbered. MLS will always grab their best attended teams and move them up with zero compensation. 

I would always be worried about losses over any extended time period. Even the MLS original owners thought about throwing in the towel on at least one occasion. Look at what they were worth. Successful businessmen will not go long without re-evaluating their positions. That is how they got to be successful. 

Aren't solidarity payments determined by FIFA? I believe the cost is determined by the number of years at the development club and I think also there are tiers for the quality of the clubs. I am not sure how those tiers are determined.

Anyways, I would love for solidarity payments to be honoured by CPL. It might be the only way we get regional D3 leagues in BC and/or the prairies, and could boost sustainability for PLSQ and L1O. Plus, with a reward to shoot for it might help to reform youth soccer player development for the better.

[Complete Homer]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You insisting this way, all you do is write yourself into holes. Your argument is, basically, that, this huge constellation exists because somewhere in space there is a black hole. 

Let's go one by one:

1-The Hamilton reference is precisely a normal reference, what you'd expect, a business leader manifesting his interest and speaking to politicians. Press reporting. Some public discussion. A potential owner can't even dream about making a bid or move without doing do so, checking infrastructure, sounding out possibilities. No politician can hide this since it affects public budgets and infrastructure. It has to come out publicly, and honestly, since as you say, "lying here would certainly have consequences". The point is: if we were anywhere, we'd have 3, 4, 5, equivalent news stories from other cities. It is actually thin as hell, but it's SOMETHING. We don't have any others, because they don't exist. Not even one more. 

2-Your argument about leaks simply proves you know nothing about how things work. It is not, as I argued, a question of just knowing CEOs, who I argued, in fact, can keep secrets. Secrecy is possible, only it is highly unlikely if you consider management teams, families,, lawyers, accountants, architects, politicians, press, soccer community consultants, etc.

Now if you are not arguing there are ownership groups set up, just a league on paper, then you are saying exactly what I am saying: there is nothing, just Hamilton yapping and nothing more. If not, if you believe the ownership structure is in place, you are suggesting only the Hamilton guys are loose-mouthed. So the silent guys no one has seen are amazing, your heroes, and the Hamilton guys are effectively too dumbshit and incompetent to keep a secret? Not very nice.

3-Montagliani is telling the truth, in one sense: they are going to make a statement. That statement may be very dissappointing, but you are going to love it, because it is going to prove you right. Even if it means no real league at all, just hot air. That is pretty weak.

If we were to discuss what CSA presidents have said in the past and failed to fulfill, you would have to put Vic in the same boat. You have no idea of what has gone on in provincial SAs in this country, there has been scandalous stuff. These are the guys who vote in the CSA president. But hey, how convenient to forget what he said about the future of the MNT when they hired Floro. Selective memory there.

4-You are argue that having no domestic league proves that it is almost inevitable, us being the exception. No, having nothing means that, given a history of that nothingness, nothing will be the future. You are just being plain silly. For you every loner in the world is going to find the love of his life tomorrow, because he wants to, so that is inevitable too. Couldn't you consider the possiblity that maybe, being loners, they might continue alone tomorrow? 

5-Resort to a personal attack because I am arguing that a black hole, is, in fact, black and hole. Your argument, which you love, is that it is full of creme brulee or your favourite ice cream. If you don't agree with me, argue your points instead of cowardly jumping up and down screaming the black hole is stuffed with what you want for Sunday dessert.

This topic is quickly losing its value and frankly this thread doesn't need to be cluttered by your rambling. If you really want to keep this conversation going, make another thread, otherwise let's leave this thread to more interesting conversations.

 

1. Hamilton needed to go public because they were formally requesting permission to make changes to a stadium owned by the city (to allow it to function as the site of the academy during winter months). That is not incompetence, that is dealing with a public entity. That is not a scenario necessarily seen in other franchises, many of which have their own stadia, while others may simply have not planned far enough ahead for the placement of academies. Why would an owner like Calgary Sports and Entertainment need to approach the city for such a request? Any dealings they would need would be private, which surely would come under an non-disclosure agreement. Further, while Montagliani has mentioned that ownership groups are lined up, they are still under formal vetting, why would they publicly approach anyone about anything without confirmation that they are being accepted by the league?

Yet again, this point relies on your opinion that there would be more leaks would be happening. You have already been presented with a recent counterpoint (The Winnipeg Jets) as an example of a very quiet move with a sudden announcement. Until you reveal yourself as a secret sports executive, your opinion is an uninformed and speculative as everyone else here.

At this point you fucked up the numbering, so I'll reply by topic

- Montagliani: Your argument does nothing to comment on why an outgoing president would continue to build hype a couple months before he is required to step down. He has little to gain from the hype and a lot of face to lose if it blew up. And you think they will have an announcement without having ownership groups? You must seriously think low of the CSA to think they are that misguided. You are creating a strawman of Montagliani and the CSA that is easier to attack, nothing more. Further, you are using the performance of the CMNT as evidence of his lack of credibility? That is a reach and you know it.

- Inevitability of the league: I was not arguing that the league was inevitable, I was demonstrating that your original point was poorly thought out and failed to support your argument. 

- Accusing someone over the internet of cowardice: I'll let that speak for itself

[Complete Homer]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Aren't solidarity payments determined by FIFA? I believe the cost is determined by the number of years at the development club and I think also there are tiers for the quality of the clubs. I am not sure how those tiers are determined.

Anyways, I would love for solidarity payments to be honoured by CPL. It might be the only way we get regional D3 leagues in BC and/or the prairies, and could boost sustainability for PLSQ and L1O. Plus, with a reward to shoot for it might help to reform youth soccer player development for the better.

You are correct, but seeing as solidarity payments seem to have failed in north america, I thought some sort of compensation regulated by the CSA could be a starting point. Solidarity payments currently pay out tens of thousands for each player, I don't think that is something CPL could afford. However, a CSA-regulated solidarity system could start off very smal and be scaled up to whatever is deemed reasonable after consultation with the clubs.

Again, just spitballing ideas

[Pqhbv]

7 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

 

I see now what you are saying. The idea I was going with was that the team poaching the player would pay all the fees. If the MLS/MLS2 teams refuse to comply, I guess the fees don't get paid. It would suck but I think it would be good for the system, even if MLS refuses to pull its weight 

Yeah thats my concern, I see you share that with me. MLS will likely not bother and then the question becomes why tie ourselves to something we will drop? Or if the CPL teams pay out anyway it gives MLSE a way to be MLSE...

I think the idea of solidarity payments inline with how FIFA does it is a noble cause, just maybe a premature thing to be considering right now. Perhaps after we actually get regional D3's in other parts of the country and/or stronger ones that are in better fiscal situations. 

I understand the whole chicken and the egg problem for instantiating this sort of thing, but the last thing I'd want to see is a regional D3 academy system start up with the premise of selling players and get caught up in red tape with MLSE or anyone else willing to flex those muscles. I'd much rather see a successful CPL and growing regional D3's. 

[Complete Homer]

15 minutes ago, Pqhbv said:

Yeah thats my concern, I see you share that with me. MLS will likely not bother and then the question becomes why tie ourselves to something we will drop? Or if the CPL teams pay out anyway it gives MLSE a way to be MLSE...

I think the idea of solidarity payments inline with how FIFA does it is a noble cause, just maybe a premature thing to be considering right now. Perhaps after we actually get regional D3's in other parts of the country and/or stronger ones that are in better fiscal situations. 

I understand the whole chicken and the egg problem for instantiating this sort of thing, but the last thing I'd want to see is a regional D3 academy system start up with the premise of selling players and get caught up in red tape with MLSE or anyone else willing to flex those muscles. I'd much rather see a successful CPL and growing regional D3's. 

Yeah fair, I was just looking for a topic to move on from the inane arguing above 

[Ansem]

Came across this on YouTube 

[Kibby]

"Answers"

[Unnamed Trialist]

14 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

This topic is quickly losing its value and frankly this thread doesn't need to be cluttered by your rambling. If you really want to keep this conversation going, make another thread, otherwise let's leave this thread to more interesting conversations.

 

1. Hamilton needed to go public because they were formally requesting permission to make changes to a stadium owned by the city (to allow it to function as the site of the academy during winter months). That is not incompetence, that is dealing with a public entity. That is not a scenario necessarily seen in other franchises, many of which have their own stadia, while others may simply have not planned far enough ahead for the placement of academies. Why would an owner like Calgary Sports and Entertainment need to approach the city for such a request? Any dealings they would need would be private, which surely would come under an non-disclosure agreement. Further, while Montagliani has mentioned that ownership groups are lined up, they are still under formal vetting, why would they publicly approach anyone about anything without confirmation that they are being accepted by the league?

Yet again, this point relies on your opinion that there would be more leaks would be happening. You have already been presented with a recent counterpoint (The Winnipeg Jets) as an example of a very quiet move with a sudden announcement. Until you reveal yourself as a secret sports executive, your opinion is an uninformed and speculative as everyone else here.

At this point you fucked up the numbering, so I'll reply by topic

- Montagliani: Your argument does nothing to comment on why an outgoing president would continue to build hype a couple months before he is required to step down. He has little to gain from the hype and a lot of face to lose if it blew up. And you think they will have an announcement without having ownership groups? You must seriously think low of the CSA to think they are that misguided. You are creating a strawman of Montagliani and the CSA that is easier to attack, nothing more. Further, you are using the performance of the CMNT as evidence of his lack of credibility? That is a reach and you know it.

- Inevitability of the league: I was not arguing that the league was inevitable, I was demonstrating that your original point was poorly thought out and failed to support your argument. 

- Accusing someone over the internet of cowardice: I'll let that speak for itself

Crying hard and loud for a banana split does not fill an empty bowl.

[Pqhbv]

A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire

I want no part in this but seriously guys can you please take this to Private Chat?

[Complete Homer]

41 minutes ago, Pqhbv said:

A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire

I want no part in this but seriously guys can you please take this to Private Chat?

Believe me, I'm not engaging anymore. Zero point 

[Futballer]

23 hours ago, ted said:

LOL. Well that is an interesting version of the truth. Garber is the only one who made it work, Logan is the one they fired 17 years ago because he couldn't make it work.

By all means pay him for some consulting on what NOT to do when starting a league but a monkey in a business suit would make a better league commissioner for the CanPL in 2018.

 

And there we have it, the death knell of any reasonable discourse.

Since the CanPL is apparently moving ahead without the CNSL group the above statement is not only a logical fallacy, it also contains an outright falsehood: Discrediting one group's plan for a league is, in fact, most assuredly NOT denying Canadian soccer supporters anything.

 

Frankly I'm not sure why we got started talking about the CNSL group at all or why Futballer keeps talking like it is somehow relevant? If the CNSL group wants to morph into an ownership group for a team in the CanPL then great. They can bring whatever "expertise" they have to the league that way.

 

 

Ok Ted,

 If you had said yes : a very lucrative deal would be tabled for you: instead you rather fight against the CNSL Group: So much for  brotherly Union:

 

[Futballer]

On 9/29/2016 at 0:31 PM, Complete Homer said:

If it is true that you guys are the ones who planted the seed, then we will all owe you a debt. I readily admit that, I would truly be grateful to you guys. I am just relieved that your group isn't the ones actually running it 

As an aside, nothing I said in that post had anything to do with your posts, so your reply confuses me. 

In a short while you will realised your fear and then, please be man enough to apologize in person;

 

[Futballer]

16 hours ago, Ansem said:

Came across this on YouTube 

Youth clubs and SAAC Academies in Canada already charges Parents/child development fees. Those fees  should be paid to the parents whom paid for the developments of their Boys and Girls in soccer:  

[Futballer]

3 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

Believe me, I'm not engaging anymore. Zero point 

 

[Trillium]

On 9/28/2016 at 1:06 PM, Unnamed Trialist said:

Thinking about financing, I just discovered that a club from my neighbourhood, UE Poble Sec, has refloated, with a team starting in the lowest tier of Spanish soccer, 8th. Totally amateur, 46 people will go watch them maybe. They used to play 5th tier, semi-pro, with a couple hundred watching.

But the story is that the guys on the board, who were still running a small kid's academy and a women's team found financing from a Kuwaiti investor to the tune of 150 thousand euros over 3 years. I find this a bit shocking, because it is good seed money. But also just proves there are folks willing to put quantitities into pure nothingness under the illusion that in 10 years they may have a team in 4th division--where they will continue to lose money. 

You'd think if someone were smart enough they could find foreign investors for a Canadian league, or a club playing in it, so not having to exclusively depend upon local financing.

 

 

 

 

 

On 9/28/2016 at 1:06 PM, Unnamed Trialist said:

 

Hey...if we had a Promotion / Relegation system in Canada up to a professional first division, a lot of folks might drop 50k a year subsidy on a club they get to own, so if fourth tier is amateur and travel under a 150 km, and you have access to a limited access stadia and charge admission your club can grow organically over the years.

3rd tier becomes amateur with limit on expenses paid to players i.e. semi-pro with travel under 500k.

2nd tier is fully professional with required two thousand K stadium.

1st division nationwide ( probably a east/west conference ) with required five thousand minimum stadium size.

No territories, no franchise, all leagues in the pyramid run from one central office by CSA in Ottawa.

What is missing now in Canada is the 2nd tier level and at least 20 2k stadia under club ownership control,that is where CSA needs to tap into infrastructure monies at federal and provincial level and set up a non-profit arms length organisation that develops and supports clubs to own with long term agreements of first right of refusal if stadia to be changed etc.

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 minutes ago, Trillium said:

 

 

 

Hey...if we had a Promotion / Relegation system in Canada up to a professional first division, a lot of folks might drop 50k a year subsidy on a club they get to own, so if fourth tier is amateur and travel under a 150 km, and you have access to a limited access stadia and charge admission your club can grow organically over the years.

3rd tier becomes amateur with limit on expenses paid to players i.e. semi-pro with travel under 500k.

2nd tier is fully professional with required two thousand K stadium.

1st division nationwide ( probably a east/west conference ) with required five thousand minimum stadium size.

No territories, no franchise, all leagues in the pyramid run from one central office by CSA in Ottawa.

What is missing now in Canada is the 2nd tier level and at least 20 2k stadia under club ownership control,that is where CSA needs to tap into infrastructure monies at federal and provincial level and set up a non-profit arms length organisation that develops and supports clubs to own with long term agreements of first right of refusal if stadia to be changed etc.

We are not going to get pro-relegation, but we could have an economy of scale sustaining a lower level semi-pro structure. I sort of agree that with stadiums fully closed, with capacity for 2-4 thousand (which is a main grandstand and a few rows of seats around a pitch, closed enough to be able to charge ten bucks, you could have a second tier. Like USL basically. Only that you can only do this regionally, step up the regional leagues, have a national championship for Div 2, and then let the winner or both finalists go to the Voyageurs Cup. 

Thing is, when you think about it, we don't have to many stadiums like this. The closest are at small universities, even some high schools, but few are fully closed, many have tracks, and stands are rather make-shift and not too user-friendly.

[toontownman]

On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 9:44 AM, Futballer said:

All i am saying is ! Support the Group that develops the Business plan. we know what it takes to operate the CPL.

The CNSL Group is that insurance policy that this edition of  the CPL don't fail.    

 

I support the group that gets a team in Saskatoon! 

In all seriousness which ever group succeds and makes it happen I hope you can work together. Both seems to have a passion and commitment to the game and good ideas. 

This country needs all hands on deck to try and bridge a gap with the rest of the world.

From someone that has the passion but just cant make the time or possess the ability/contacts to do so...Thanks for getting out there and continue doing what you are trying to do! 

[Gopherbashi]

I was thinking about this whole Fury situation today.

Moving to USL or sitting out a year waiting for the CPL to start in 2018 may sound like a good theory, but it's making a very important assumption - that the CPL actually *does* start in 2018.

If the whole project gets delayed again, which none of us really should be holding our breath about, my god does that have the potential to kill the Fury.

[Coramoor]

your problem @futballer is that you talk a lot but say nothing, it's the common strategy of a used car salesman, blow smoke in your face until you buy bullshit, although why you're doing it on a forum of people who have no power to influence business decisions, I have no idea. I'm a bit confused about your claims of people who turn soccer leagues around, what leagues were those?

Also Canada is for the most part an extremely protectionist country, you're going to be hard pressed to get a lot of foreign investment into anything.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

On 29/09/2016 at 6:01 PM, Complete Homer said:

But this was my earlier point, I think your disbelief draws more from an emotional distrust of the CSA than the actual evidence in front of us. The CSA has been a shitshow in the past, but they seem to have turned things around...

In the build up to the 2015 Women's World Cup, Montagliani and co commissioned a feasility study into the viability of launching a coast-to-coast pro league that was carried out by a former CMNT player called Jim Easton. The conclusion reached was that it wasn't feasible and the recommendation was to focus on regional D3 and leave D1 and D2 to USSF sanctioned leagues. What has changed since then? I doubt there is any compelling overlooked rational reason to believe it would work now, if the three MLS teams can't be forced into it, but the CSA are now ploughing on with this stuff because they prefer the national league option for emotional reasons tied into visceral level nationalism. Much the same happened in the late 1990s when the CSA hired KPMG to do a feasibility study and then ignored the findings that it wasn't viable and ploughed ahead with the CUSL concept that ultimately failed to get anywhere.  

[Gopherbashi]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

In the build up to the 2015 Women's World Cup, Montagliani and co commissioned a feasility study into the viability of launching a coast-to-coast pro league that was carried out by a former CMNT player called Jim Easton. The conclusion reached was that it wasn't feasible and the recommendation was to focus on regional D3 and leave D1 and D2 to USSF sanctioned leagues. What has changed since then? I doubt there is any compelling overlooked rational reason to believe it would work now, if the three MLS teams can't be forced into it, but the CSA are now ploughing on with this stuff because they prefer the national league option for emotional reasons tied into visceral level nationalism. Much the same happened in the late 1990s when the CSA hired KPMG to do a feasibility study and then ignored the findings that it wasn't viable and ploughed ahead with the CUSL concept that ultimately failed to get anywhere.  

Yeah, admittedly, this was one of the first things that pissed me off about the whole project.

Though I believe the report was looking at D2 and not D1.

[Complete Homer]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

In the build up to the 2015 Women's World Cup, Montagliani and co commissioned a feasility study into the viability of launching a coast-to-coast pro league that was carried out by a former CMNT player called Jim Easton. The conclusion reached was that it wasn't feasible and the recommendation was to focus on regional D3 and leave D1 and D2 to USSF sanctioned leagues. What has changed since then? I doubt there is any compelling overlooked rational reason to believe it would work now, if the three MLS teams can't be forced into it, but the CSA are now ploughing on with this stuff because they prefer the national league option for emotional reasons tied into visceral level nationalism. Much the same happened in the late 1990s when the CSA hired KPMG to do a feasibility study and then ignored the findings that it wasn't viable and ploughed ahead with the CUSL concept that ultimately failed to get anywhere.  

I'm aware of the Easton report. Everyone is. The primary reasons for recommending a regionalized semi-pro league over a national pro league was the lack of adequate venues, unlikelihood that ownership groups are available willing to take long term losses, and uncertainty about public interest. 

The former two seem to have been addressed effectively by the CSA, if mixed CFL/NHL ownerships is true. The latter point is always going to be a variable that new teams will deal with, regardless of if they are CPL, NASL, or USL. 

The Easton report really wasn't as damning as you think. It made direct comparisons to the development of the A-league and how a Canadian league would probably have a similar early trajectory. The sticking point was that the authors didn't think there were ownership groups willing to take the hit. Unless, again, lots of people are lying their ass off, ownership groups willing and able to take that hit have been found. 

It's actually good that you brought the Easton report up, because as a well known and publicly available analysis, it proves that the CSA wouldn't be pulling a fast one on any ownership groups. Barring complete incompetence, they know what they are getting into, and are less likely to bail after a couple of seasons 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

If owners had been found there would have been a formal announcement by now. The only investor that has shown a concrete level of interest is Bob Young in Hamilton, who had a commitment to pro soccer tied into getting the new stadium built as a PanAm games soccer venue. The major stumbling block is that MLS is entrenched as the top level of soccer in the three major markets that contain roughly half the country's population. That hasn't changed since the Easton report and continues to make it very difficult to put an eight team standalone Canadian pro league together. What some of us resent is that constantly chasing this national league dream may be blocking further progress that could have been made at the fully pro D2 level (in CSA sanctioning terms) through USSF sanctioned leagues. Bear in mind that over 100 Canadians played in USL this past summer. There's scope for growth at that level beyond the three reserve teams.

[Complete Homer]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

If owners had been found there would have been a formal announcement by now. The only investor that has shown a concrete level of interest is Bob Young in Hamilton, who had a commitment to pro soccer tied into getting the new stadium built as a PanAm games soccer venue. The major stumbling block is that MLS is entrenched as the top level of soccer in the three major markets that contain roughly half the country's population. That hasn't changed since the Easton report and continues to make it very difficult to put an eight team standalone Canadian pro league together. What some of us resent is that constantly chasing this national league dream may be blocking further progress that could have been made at the fully pro D2 level (in CSA sanctioning terms) through USSF sanctioned leagues. Bear in mind that over 100 Canadians played in USL this past summer. There's scope for growth at that level beyond the three reserve teams.

If you had an announcement coming before Christmas, would it push back your resentment? Or would you still prefer USL expansion?