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1 minute ago, Tg11 said:

Yes I want that too but the only place for him to truly grow into an elite player is in Europe

Yea but you keep throwing out various leagues with lesser track records. Turkey, Scotland they haven't exactly been pumping out top level talents for a while even the mega teams. Not everywhere in Europe creates the players he has the potential to be. It's rather small window of maybe 6-8 leagues.

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1 minute ago, matty said:

Yea but you keep throwing out various leagues with lesser track records. Turkey, Scotland they haven't exactly been pumping out top level talents for a while even the mega teams. Not everywhere in Europe creates the players he has the potential to be. It's rather small window of maybe 6-8 leagues.

Okay yeah true but if he is that good then he should have no problem going to any other league in Europe. However, you are right there is a small window of leagues that he can go to to become that elite player we want him to be for Canada.

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31 minutes ago, matty said:

MLS actually do have probably the best youth development program in CONCACAF (including Mexico). And I don't get your point about players returning as that's what happens with most leagues. When we talk Turkey vs. MLS, MLS has been sending out more players into the world than Turkey has.

No we want a place he can develop into a fuller player.

Better youth development than Mexico?  Come on now.. I think it’s telling that the top American prospects have all never played in mls.  Find me another country where that’s true.  

and as for returning players I’m talking returning because they fell flat - Shea, Agudelo, Adu, Altidore, Henry.  Sure there are some guys who have done well but Turkey has produced higher quality and quantity.  MLS has never produced an Arda Turan or even that young kid at Roma.  The system in mls isn’t conducive to development and that’s the bottom line.. the structure makes it nearly impossible to do properly. 

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14 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Better youth development than Mexico?  Come on now.. I think it’s telling that the top American prospects have all never played in mls.  Find me another country where that’s true.  

and as for returning players I’m talking returning because they fell flat - Shea, Agudelo, Adu, Altidore, Henry.  Sure there are some guys who have done well but Turkey has produced higher quality and quantity.  MLS has never produced an Arda Turan or even that young kid at Roma.  The system in mls isn’t conducive to development and that’s the bottom line.. the structure makes it nearly impossible to do properly. 

Exactly because in MLS he won't be able to grow as an elite world renown player. Yeah sure he will be known as a great player but won't be seen as the world's elite or among them if he stays in MLS playing for the Whitecaps let's be realistic.

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21 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Better youth development than Mexico?  Come on now.. I think it’s telling that the top American prospects have all never played in mls.  Find me another country where that’s true.  

and as for returning players I’m talking returning because they fell flat - Shea, Agudelo, Adu, Altidore, Henry.  Sure there are some guys who have done well but Turkey has produced higher quality and quantity.  MLS has never produced an Arda Turan or even that young kid at Roma.  The system in mls isn’t conducive to development and that’s the bottom line.. the structure makes it nearly impossible to do properly. 

Mexico's system is pretty broken when you look. They've for years suffered from lack of stability and under performances. It's documented. The one thing Mexico has is that there are more youths playing and they finish better.

Also you're comment about top prospects not being MLS falls apart when you look at how many MLS academy kids were on the strong performing U17 and U20 teams from last year. Hell look at a lot of the U23 guys on the USMNT right now and you'll see that a lot started in MLS.

As for flops that happens with most non-big 6 systems, Mexico has a ton too and Turkey likely has more in recent years.

Edited by matty
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11 minutes ago, Tg11 said:

Exactly because in MLS he won't be able to grow as an elite world renown player. Yeah sure he will be known as a great player but won't be seen as the world's elite or among them if he stays in MLS playing for the Whitecaps let's be realistic.

no one is saying he should stay or that mls will make him elite

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47 minutes ago, matty said:

Mexico's system is pretty broken when you look. They've for years suffered from lack of stability and under performances. It's documented. The one thing Mexico has is that there are more youths playing and they finish better.

Also you're comment about top prospects not being MLS falls apart when you look at how many MLS academy kids were on the strong performing U17 and U20 teams from last year. Hell look at a lot of the U23 guys on the USMNT right now and you'll see that a lot started in MLS.

As for flops that happens with most non-big 6 systems, Mexico has a ton too and Turkey likely has more in recent years.

I don’t think any of the systems are perfect but if we’re talking Turkey, Mexico or the USA for development then MLS is at the bottom of that group.  

Mexico has won 2 u17 World Cups in the last 13 years and an olympics using a higher proportion of domestic players than the USA has used over the same period.  They’ve also produced more upper echelon footballers.  Looking objectively there isn’t an argument to be had that Mexico produces better players than mls.  When it comes to youth football the Mexicans are head and shoulders above the rest of concacaf and are among the best in the world. 

I think Turkey is attractive based on training potential on a first team ie playing on Beşiktaş you’re with guys like Pepe, Quaresma etc. But of course Turkey sort of is a larger scale MLS.. I want Davies somewhere like Belgium, Switzerland, Portugal, Spain or GERMANY. 

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17 minutes ago, Keegan said:

I don’t think any of the systems are perfect but if we’re talking Turkey, Mexico or the USA for development then MLS is at the bottom of that group.  

Mexico has won 2 u17 World Cups in the last 13 years and an olympics using a higher proportion of domestic players than the USA has used over the same period.  They’ve also produced more upper echelon footballers.  Looking objectively there isn’t an argument to be had that Mexico produces better players than mls.  When it comes to youth football the Mexicans are head and shoulders above the rest of concacaf and are among the best in the world. 

I think Turkey is attractive based on training potential on a first team ie playing on Beşiktaş you’re with guys like Pepe, Quaresma etc. But of course Turkey sort of is a larger scale MLS.. I want Davies somewhere like Belgium, Switzerland, Portugal, Spain or GERMANY. 

Portugal he can go to Benfica or Sporting Lisbon or Porto; Spain I mean he can go to Villarreal, Levante, Sevilla or Celta Vigo; Germany there is Werder Bremen and Belgium there is Anderlecht. As for going to Switzerland which team can he go to?

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35 minutes ago, Tg11 said:

Portugal he can go to Benfica or Sporting Lisbon or Porto; Spain I mean he can go to Villarreal, Levante, Sevilla or Celta Vigo; Germany there is Werder Bremen and Belgium there is Anderlecht. As for going to Switzerland which team can he go to?

Alright either you know nothing about football and you’re trying too hard or you’re trolling lol.  

In Switzerland Basel, Grasshopper, Young Boys and Zürich are all reputable clubs. 

Edited by Keegan
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1 hour ago, Keegan said:

I don’t think any of the systems are perfect but if we’re talking Turkey, Mexico or the USA for development then MLS is at the bottom of that group.  

Mexico has won 2 u17 World Cups in the last 13 years and an olympics using a higher proportion of domestic players than the USA has used over the same period.  They’ve also produced more upper echelon footballers.  Looking objectively there isn’t an argument to be had that Mexico produces better players than mls.  When it comes to youth football the Mexicans are head and shoulders above the rest of concacaf and are among the best in the world. 

I think Turkey is attractive based on training potential on a first team ie playing on Beşiktaş you’re with guys like Pepe, Quaresma etc. But of course Turkey sort of is a larger scale MLS.. I want Davies somewhere like Belgium, Switzerland, Portugal, Spain or GERMANY. 

US is not under Turkey for development of player that is just straight up incorrect. Mexico is a little more complicated but in the last 5-10 years, the US system has become more "state of the art" and much more stable than Mexico's and it is starting to show in the youth ranks.

The US's biggest weakness, as I've said,  is finishing (not counting the goalie snag) which you touch on here. The MLS is not a finishing league which is why more and more higher profile U23 Americans and Canadians are leaving MLS after a season or 2 for Europe (often to high profile like Chelsea or Man U).

The attraction for Turkey is who is around him but that's just one step to making him a fuller player.

I fully agree on Portugal, Spain, Germany and Belgium.

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28 minutes ago, matty said:

US is not under Turkey for development of player that is just straight up incorrect. Mexico is a little more complicated but in the last 5-10 years, the US system has become more "state of the art" and much more stable than Mexico's and it is starting to show in the youth ranks.

The US's biggest weakness, as I've said,  is finishing (not counting the goalie snag) which you touch on here. The MLS is not a finishing league which is why more and more higher profile U23 Americans and Canadians are leaving MLS after a season or 2 for Europe (often to high profile like Chelsea or Man U).

The attraction for Turkey is who is around him but that's just one step to making him a fuller player.

I fully agree on Portugal, Spain, Germany and Belgium.

Maybe in Football Manager but in reality that’s just not true. Miazga left 2 years ago for Chelsea, no one has gone to Manchester United.  And maybe here’s where the issue is.. are you including players who never played in MLS but were part of an mls academy?  Because I personally don’t think you can include a player who was never eligible to player for an mls team ie not signed and that’s the major issue and why all of the USA top prospects skip mls altogether.  If it was so great why wouldn’t they stay a year or two like every other player in the world? The problem is MLS doesn’t care about developing players, which is probably true for many Turkish clubs as well.  MLS is interested in keeping salaries in check and to do that they refuse to pay young players their value - in other words this is never going to stop and MLS will never be known as a developmental league.  The criteria for who developed you should be clear: you played in their academy and played in the first team (or in the case of a development program like Sigma or St Louis Gallagher you moved from there to a first team).  Newell’s Old Boys can’t claim Messi, Orlando can’t claim Larin etc. 

If you were to stack up players developing in Turkey vs players in MLS over the past 10 years (to be fair to mls) Turkey wins but the gap isn’t massive I’ll admit, which is why I don’t think it’s the most attractive option. It helps when you have more supporters for one club than all of mls combined. 

Edited by Keegan
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10 hours ago, jpg75 said:

So how much do you guys think Besiktas are willing to pay in transfer fees?

Alright, so no one bit. As I mentioned a few pages ago the largest transfer Besiktas has paid is €8M, that's just not going to get it done with MLS for Davies. With a kid this young, this talented and being sniffed out by big clubs (training invite by ManU) you can bet the transfer will be much bigger than what Besiktas would be willing to offer. And that's not factoring in the fiasco with Larin...

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1 minute ago, Keegan said:

Maybe in Football Manager but in reality that’s just not true. Miazga left 2 years ago for Chelsea, no one has gone to Manchester United. 

If you were to stack up players developing in Turkey vs players in MLS over the past 10 years (to be fair to mls) Turkey wins but the gap isn’t massive I’ll admit, which is why I don’t think it’s the most attractive option. It helps when you have more supporters for one club than all of mls combined. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Olosunde left NYRB academy for Man U (I know he's not proper but still a decent example of MLS academy kids leaving for Europe)

I disagree on Turkey producing stronger players especially in recent years. Turkey has 3 clubs with a full scale mega operations and none of them are selling talent on the reg to Europe's alpha clubs or leagues. I'd say the gap between the 3 is closer than anyone here will give it credit for but for someone U20 I'd rather US/Can before shipping them out to Turkey.

Like Mexico, I think Turkey can polish or finish a player better than MLS can (especially things like big games and harsher fans).

I don't exactly think, Davies needs to jump to a big club but rather a decent one at his age.

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4 minutes ago, canadasoccer20 said:

I like that comparison. PSV would also be a great option for Davies. Maybe Davies can take Lozano's spot when he leaves for a better league/team.....

I like that

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1 hour ago, Keegan said:

Maybe in Football Manager but in reality that’s just not true. Miazga left 2 years ago for Chelsea, no one has gone to Manchester United.  And maybe here’s where the issue is.. are you including players who never played in MLS but were part of an mls academy?  Because I personally don’t think you can include a player who was never eligible to player for an mls team ie not signed and that’s the major issue and why all of the USA top prospects skip mls altogether.  If it was so great why wouldn’t they stay a year or two like every other player in the world? The problem is MLS doesn’t care about developing players, which is probably true for many Turkish clubs as well.  MLS is interested in keeping salaries in check and to do that they refuse to pay young players their value - in other words this is never going to stop and MLS will never be known as a developmental league.  The criteria for who developed you should be clear: you played in their academy and played in the first team (or in the case of a development program like Sigma or St Louis Gallagher you moved from there to a first team).  Newell’s Old Boys can’t claim Messi, Orlando can’t claim Larin etc. 

If you were to stack up players developing in Turkey vs players in MLS over the past 10 years (to be fair to mls) Turkey wins but the gap isn’t massive I’ll admit, which is why I don’t think it’s the most attractive option. It helps when you have more supporters for one club than all of mls combined. 

I see you updated this and fair enough to your definition but I still feel an academy can claim a player (especially one who is there until the age of 18) even if the team cannot. I think it's an agree to disagree thing.

I think you give MLS less credit. It cares. It cares that its image and rep is at war with China and that the 2018 failure cost the USSF $200m. MLS has for the last year shifted it's focus to increase the power of HGP rather than rely NCAA, we've also seen teams change how they develop youth players and create fuller academies. The reputation war with CSL is going to be a big thing moving forward.

The biggest issue MLS has had is it's never seen itself as a selling league and that seems to be changing.

Edited by matty
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Don’t get me wrong I think The states have enormous potential for development.. it’s just a failing system.  I think if MLS can become less stubborn it will benefit everyone.  Quit trying to put unilateral options in contracts, let teams keep 100% of HGP sales etc. Make it easier for the players AND clubs to get things done.  Already Vancouver and Montreal have ditched their USL programs.. how can you develop players when the only option is to jump from the academy straight to the first team?  Unless you’re a phenom it’s tough and until all of the above issues are sorted out I can’t see MLS ever becoming elite at developing talent because it’s a broken track.. more and more players will play for private academies and the us programs and jump to Europe at 18.  You can’t blame teams for not taking development super seriously - no one is making money and you can get players from anywhere at the snap of your fingers.  

They also need to incentivize the salary cap to work with players you’ve developed.  What’s the incentive in developing a generation when they all come up together, have success and suddenly all want big deals?  So you lose them for nothing to other mls teams?  I don’t know, maybe there’s something I’m missing.. I know initially HGP aren’t against the cap. 

Edited by Keegan
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1 hour ago, Keegan said:

Don’t get me wrong I think The states have enormous potential for development.. it’s just a failing system.  I think if MLS can become less stubborn it will benefit everyone.  Quit trying to put unilateral options in contracts, let teams keep 100% of HGP sales etc. Make it easier for the players AND clubs to get things done.  Already Vancouver and Montreal have ditched their USL programs.. how can you develop players when the only option is to jump from the academy straight to the first team?  Unless you’re a phenom it’s tough and until all of the above issues are sorted out I can’t see MLS ever becoming elite at developing talent because it’s a broken track.. more and more players will play for private academies and the us programs and jump to Europe at 18.  You can’t blame teams for not taking development super seriously - no one is making money and you can get players from anywhere at the snap of your fingers.  

They also need to incentivize the salary cap to work with players you’ve developed.  What’s the incentive in developing a generation when they all come up together, have success and suddenly all want big deals?  So you lose them for nothing to other mls teams?  I don’t know, maybe there’s something I’m missing.. I know initially HGP aren’t against the cap. 

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2018/03/01/stejskal-how-new-homegrown-transfer-rule-will-impact-mls

Teams get to keep 100% of HG player transfer fees.

As for youth players,

-Most best private academies are pay to play model which is out of reach for a lot of players. I also question how much visibility playing for a private academy vs playing for an MLS youth academy, which gets invited to more wide known youth int tourneys, and eyes of European scouts.

-It's easy to jump from MLS youth academy to Europe, as long as you don't sign an MLS contract. Which is a sore point for MLS clubs that develops players, but gets nothing in return in compensation. 

-I think it was 2 yrs ago, Garber said MLS clubs spend average 2 mil per club per year or something. 

-With boatload of GAM, TAM, discretionary TAM and DP mechanism, there is no reason why a competent technical director can't find enough cap room to keep promising youth players with good wages.

 

Food for thought

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1 hour ago, Yoginess said:

Selfishly I hope Davies goes to a team/league where he can develop but also one where I can actually watch games. If he goes to EPL or one of the DAZN leagues that would be great! haha

Well yeah preferably EPL but even if he doesn't go there and goes elsewhere it will be good for him but even if he stays in MLS it will be all right.

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On 6/24/2018 at 7:28 PM, Tg11 said:

Well yeah preferably EPL but even if he doesn't go there and goes elsewhere it will be good for him but even if he stays in MLS it will be all right.

Yeah, if he goes to EPL it will be good or if he plays in any other league including staying in MLS it will be good or if he has a career ending injury it will be good because of life lessons that he’d learn so it’s all good.

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