Alphonso Davies

[Northvansteve]

6 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The most irritating thing is that Lenarduzzi was not like this before MLS, he did have more edge and was critical and we did feel we could always expect Caps to be tough and a good product. 

I may be guilty of false memory here, but I seem to recall Lenarduzzi being himself a very attack-minded manager. He was a breath of fresh air and was always seeking a way to have his teams play entertaining soccer. 

[Dub Narcotic]

The 'caps were a huge fluke last year, massively over-performing their goal and expected goal differentials. And, like usual, their underlying mediocrity and Robinson's uselessness is exposed the first time they hit any good team in the playoffs, the year's they've made it under Robinson. Robinson has been really bailed out by how bad the West has gotten, in particular RSL and the Galaxy have collapsed recently and Colorado, Minnesota and San Jose do the bare minimum to be considered MLS teams.

[red card]

Whitecaps are representative of a big chunk of the MLS. Mostly non-descript players who have been recycled around the MLS, some young players who aren't ready for prime time yet (and won't be with the club if they ever become ready) and one or two players masquerading as DPs all coached by a former MLS player.

The result is non-descript, lethargic play. Not worth watching other than to see Davies and progression of other Canadians. 

The Union who were shown on TSN before the Whitecaps match are another example of this and their fans have already started tuning out.

[jpg75]

Did you see the shit show defending on the 2nd Orlando goal? It's labourious sometimes watching the weaker teams in MLS, especially after watching CCL the past month. Though to be fair i was just watching PSV-Ajax and that match didn't look much better than two good MLS teams going at it.

[Dominic94]

I thought Davies played LM the past few games based on the lineup on mls website.... time will tell is Robbo knows best

[badname22]

13 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

I thought Davies played LM the past few games based on the lineup on mls website.... time will tell is Robbo knows best

He usually starts on the left , move to the right and does well only for him to move back at the left  and somehow ends up at Left back.

[badname22]

 Robbo hasn't done particularly well will youngsters in the past which scares me. He sucked the potential off of bustos and  He chased away Froese.  for example

[Dub Narcotic]

1 hour ago, red card said:

Whitecaps are representative of a big chunk of the MLS. Mostly non-descript players who have been recycled around the MLS, some young players who aren't ready for prime time yet (and won't be with the club if they ever become ready) and one or two players masquerading as DPs all coached by a former MLS player.

The result is non-descript, lethargic play. Not worth watching other than to see Davies and progression of other Canadians. 

The Union who were shown on TSN before the Whitecaps match are another example of this and their fans have already started tuning out.

Gregg Berhalter is proof that you can play a beautiful, winning style on a MLS-average budget. MLS clubs without TFC's resources should be focusing on getting great scouting and analytic departments (available fairly cheaply) and then finding a young, progressive coach like Berhalter who has an attractive, attacking philosophy and skill.

Bluntly, I don't think youth development is a great use of resources compared to some other way teams can spend their money. Philadelphia, Vancouver and Dallas in particular have poured so much money into their youth systems with really not much to show for it. 

[mpg_29]

Like someone mentioned it's a result of the disparity in talent you can see on MLS teams. You have a bunch of players making 100K and then 2-3 making several million.

The coach has raw talent that hasn't been totally developed yet and is just using him as see fits the to plug the holes (usually defense in MLS's case).

[lazlo_80]

Robinson's style can lead to less than thrilling soccer, but I feel like this year it's taken an even more cynical step.

It's been really anti-possesion, hoof it into the box and hope something happens type soccer so far this year, with, as mentioned above, a few highlight reel plays from Alphonso.

At this point I'm looking forward to him moving on and see what he can do in a team with a different style.

[harrycoyster]

58 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

Robinson's style can lead to less than thrilling soccer, but I feel like this year it's taken an even more cynical step.

Our 44.8% possession and 370 completed passes per game is slightly better than our 44.3/345 from last year. But yeah, it's still Robboball....and Kamara is paramount to the team having any sort of attack.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 15/4/2018 at 12:11 AM, Club Linesman said:

Not an expert but I recall everyone shitting all over Robinson during the rough beginning last year, writing the team off early, and yet if I recall correctly they turned it around and made the playoffs.  Surely Robinson must be at some level capable?  He’s not Pochettino but he must on some level be minimally talented. Reading the hatred for him on here you would think he should be doing U12 somewhere in Wales.

I honestly believe he'd have huge problems keeping an average budget team away from relegation in League One back in the UK. For me, he is League Two level, the kind of guy who would be perfect at a Stevenage or similar (not meaning to judge that team, I could have said Crewe A). It is where his tactics and football acumen belong, where you live to not relegate and occasionally get a chance at promotion, where you do not have great quality on the ball and the rivals are going to be as physical as you. 

The Whitecaps, with this exact squad and a proper coach, would raise both possession and passing stats, and would be a clearly winning team I believe. We have the depth and the quality in pretty well all positions, excepting maybe right back.

[lazlo_80]

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

Our 44.8% possession and 370 completed passes per game is slightly better than our 44.3/345 from last year. But yeah, it's still Robboball....and Kamara is paramount to the team having any sort of attack.

ah, fair point. I admit I could be totally wrong on that, it was just more a feeling than anything scientific.

[Obinna]

Hard not to consider that Robinson could be doing more with what he has. 

I think there is an element of truth to what @Unnamed Trialist is saying, particular when it comes to relegation survival mentality from lower leagues in Britain. Could be true of other lower leagues in other countries but that’s not the point. The fact is that we know it to be true in the UK. 

Now, such a mentality may lend itself to success in MLS when that success is measured in terms of making it above the playoff line. It is an interesting and fair thing to ponder. From that perspective Robinson is doing well.

But whether they make he playoffs or not with any regularity should not take away from the idea that Vancouver could be more with the roster they have. I mean, sorry to take this off topic and bring it back to Davies, but, the kid is an absolute terror up front. Why wouldn’t you want him running at people all day? Like I said before, if you need him to drop back and shut somebody down, then fair enough, but when you are chasing the game?... Just doesn’t make sense to me....

[A_Gagne]

7 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

Gregg Berhalter is proof that you can play a beautiful, winning style on a MLS-average budget. MLS clubs without TFC's resources should be focusing on getting great scouting and analytic departments (available fairly cheaply) and then finding a young, progressive coach like Berhalter who has an attractive, attacking philosophy and skill.

Bluntly, I don't think youth development is a great use of resources compared to some other way teams can spend their money. Philadelphia, Vancouver and Dallas in particular have poured so much money into their youth systems with really not much to show for it. 

Arguably Dallas has gotten more out of their youth set-up than either Philly or VWFC... but they've had a couple of off years of late.

[Keegan]

40 minutes ago, A_Gagne said:

Arguably Dallas has gotten more out of their youth set-up than either Philly or VWFC... but they've had a couple of off years of late.

I have to disagree with Dub as well, Dallas has the best academy in MLS.. they have 3 players who play just about every match (Gonzalez, Ulloa and Acosta) who came from their academy plus some young up and comers like Pomykal and Ferreira who are highly rated among others.  They have a nice system because they're not afraid to give guys shots and they aren't buried behind immovable big name players.  

If you can have 5+ developed players on your first team squad who contribute you're doing well.  

[Bison44]

The argument is that they could have taken the money/resources spent on youth and brought in players developed elsewhere.  Cynically with a few scouts and number crunchers you can sign 3-4 cheap starters that another country thankfully developed for you.  Why develop a CDN academy keeper (not s sure thing) when you can bring in #1 and backups for just above the league minimum (Marinovic et al).  Scour central america, the caribbean etc for cheap options.  Doesnt do much for planting the roots of the team deep in the region, grow the sport long term in your country (ie potential fans) but it is a strategy that you can use. 

[BearcatSA]

8 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

The argument is that they could have taken the money/resources spent on youth and brought in players developed elsewhere.  Cynically with a few scouts and number crunchers you can sign 3-4 cheap starters that another country thankfully developed for you.  Why develop a CDN academy keeper (not s sure thing) when you can bring in #1 and backups for just above the league minimum (Marinovic et al).  Scour central america, the caribbean etc for cheap options.  Doesnt do much for planting the roots of the team deep in the region, grow the sport long term in your country (ie potential fans) but it is a strategy that you can use. 

The Whitecaps develop brand recognition by having their academies located throughout Canada and then bringing in the best of those players from these regions to their residency program.

As for the debatable offensive merits of having Davies as a late game LB while the club searches for goals to get back in a match, as well to see the lack of any attacking teamwork against an organized defensive side, re-watch the sequence of play in Friday's match between the 81st and 83rd minutes.

[BearcatSA]

4 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I honestly believe he'd have huge problems keeping an average budget team away from relegation in League One back in the UK. For me, he is League Two level, the kind of guy who would be perfect at a Stevenage or similar (not meaning to judge that team, I could have said Crewe A). It is where his tactics and football acumen belong, where you live to not relegate and occasionally get a chance at promotion, where you do not have great quality on the ball and the rivals are going to be as physical as you. 

The Whitecaps, with this exact squad and a proper coach, would raise both possession and passing stats, and would be a clearly winning team I believe. We have the depth and the quality in pretty well all positions, excepting maybe right back.

Not to quibble, but for many years Crewe Alex had a top notch academy that played quality football and the club thrived off of its graduates (unlike the Caps), several of whom went on to good careers in the top flight as well as at international level (probably the most famous being David Platt).  However, your point is well taken and I totally agree with the other highlighted part (though I actually think they don't have a bona fide and trusted LB back up/competition).

 

[BearcatSA]

11 hours ago, red card said:

The Union who were shown on TSN before the Whitecaps match are another example of this and their fans have already started tuning out.

Fun fact:  their coach has been around for almost the same length of time as Robbo, with similar results.  Go figure?

[apbsmith]

On 4/14/2018 at 9:44 AM, mpg_29 said:

Davies highlight:

 

Good thing he was playing LB when down 2-0. Nice first highlight

[apbsmith]

On 4/14/2018 at 4:42 PM, Stoppage Time said:

Could not agree more, Jeffrey! The 'Caps were clearly on the wrong end of the tactics spectrum last night. They were predictable, and unimaginative. 

What was predictable was Bradley's tactics OP Robinson by a landslide. 

I know this is the Davies thread, but man, sweet to see Bradley have so much confidence in MAK(getting better and more confident) every week.

[Dub Narcotic]

17 hours ago, Bison44 said:

The argument is that they could have taken the money/resources spent on youth and brought in players developed elsewhere.  Cynically with a few scouts and number crunchers you can sign 3-4 cheap starters that another country thankfully developed for you.  Why develop a CDN academy keeper (not s sure thing) when you can bring in #1 and backups for just above the league minimum (Marinovic et al).  Scour central america, the caribbean etc for cheap options.  Doesnt do much for planting the roots of the team deep in the region, grow the sport long term in your country (ie potential fans) but it is a strategy that you can use. 

Why is this cynical? It's clear that in terms of what actual Canadian paying sports customers want, it's winning, attractive soccer at certain level of quality. Vancouver fans, solidly and without doubt, voted with their feet on how much they cared about youth development and young Canadian players by showing up in the strong dozens for the USL2 team and you see a direct correlation with teams winning and attendance throughout MLS, soccer and pro sports in general.

Not only have the 'caps not got a lot of MLS benefit from the tens of millions of dollars they've poured into the youth system (Alphonso Davies may even the outcomes a fair bit) but the CSA thanked them for this huge financial outlay by backing a rival league with not one but possibly two or more competing teams in their direct market and further cut them off from their new revenue sharing model despite the 'caps being the best club in Canadian soccer history at contributing players to the senior mens team.

Vancouver is mandated by MLS rules to have U-18, U-16 and U-14 teams, and the USL loan deal is the least they can do they ensure that they have at least have a place to go for some of their prospects, but I would be spending future marginal dollars on top front office talent like Tim Bezbachenko and Devin Pleuler at TFC, and then hiring a coach like Gregg Berhalter (I would actually hire Berhalter directly). 

If we're talking about the very dubious moral virtues of spending private money to ensure national sporting excellence in one of the richest countries in the world, I think a NWSL club is actually more deserving than yet more youth male development cash, and would also strengthen the Whitecaps brand as the premiere soccer destination in the lower Mainland as the CPL starts competing.

[Bison44]

Its cynical because a lot of soccer fandom culture (or sports in general) is the romantic idea that "local" community owned club takes youngsters into its academy and they train into excellent players that lead their hometown to glory.  Bringing championship trophies home for parades and becoming heroes.  Thats why many guys love the pro/reg system so much.  Look at almost any thread in here, a good portion of the fans dont want generic corporate franchises.  Purists denounce the super clubs of the world. And instead attach life long loyaltes to smaller clubs. There is your romantic, idealized soccer fantasy.  

But all of what you are saying is true.  Caps didnt get much of a return on youth system investment.  Private money doesnt need to be spent on improving "national sporting excellence."  A NWSL would be very deserving of development cash.  All valid points.  

I get that we arent in fantasy land but the real world.  Soccer isnt woven into the culture in Canada to the extent where people will come out in droves to watch academy kids, USL farms teams or losing MLS squads.  Van doesnt sell out with a (for the most part) winning team.  Not like in Europe or with hockey in Canada, or football in Texas for example.   But as a CDN soccer fan I kind of like the idea of the MLS club reinvesting money into local ball/development. And later the players and parents become real hardcore soccer fans and it spreads from there and eventually the team is rewarded by a strong passionate fanbase it helped create. A fanbase that isnt just predicated on whether the team is winning at the moment.  And I look forward to the day where we have our own league and thriving clubs in more cities than just the few we have now.  But Soccer is business and the clubs need to generate revenue, fill the stadium and turn a profit.  PERIOD.  But if you suck too much of the fan/romantic side out of it, then you take the passion out and you wont be as successful even if you have a winning, profitable team.  Has to be a little middle ground between what I would call a cynical corporate approach and the pie in the sky fan approach.  And dont get me wrong, I am not taking shots at Van..its the same everywhere.  

[harrycoyster]

1 hour ago, Dub Narcotic said:

Why is this cynical? It's clear that in terms of what actual Canadian paying sports customers want, it's winning, attractive soccer at certain level of quality. Vancouver fans, solidly and without doubt, voted with their feet on how much they cared about youth development and young Canadian players by showing up in the strong dozens for the USL2 team and you see a direct correlation with teams winning and attendance throughout MLS, soccer and pro sports in general.

Not only have the 'caps not got a lot of MLS benefit from the tens of millions of dollars they've poured into the youth system (Alphonso Davies may even the outcomes a fair bit) but the CSA thanked them for this huge financial outlay by backing a rival league with not one but possibly two or more competing teams in their direct market and further cut them off from their new revenue sharing model despite the 'caps being the best club in Canadian soccer history at contributing players to the senior mens team.

Vancouver is mandated by MLS rules to have U-18, U-16 and U-14 teams, and the USL loan deal is the least they can do they ensure that they have at least have a place to go for some of their prospects, but I would be spending future marginal dollars on top front office talent like Tim Bezbachenko and Devin Pleuler at TFC, and then hiring a coach like Gregg Berhalter (I would actually hire Berhalter directly). 

If we're talking about the very dubious moral virtues of spending private money to ensure national sporting excellence in one of the richest countries in the world, I think a NWSL club is actually more deserving than yet more youth male development cash, and would also strengthen the Whitecaps brand as the premiere soccer destination in the lower Mainland as the CPL starts competing.

For the sake of the CPL I hope it's just a Vancouver thing, but it took everybody in the Caps organization by surprise how little interest there was in the USL team. The "Come see the future of Canadian soccer" advertising campaign attracted ~400 paying fans. Also, Vancouver isn't technically mandated by MLS rules to have youth teams at every level (Minnesota doesn't have a u16/u18 team and until last year the Revs didn't have a u14 team). The league requires you spend a certain amount on youth development, all other rules are waivable.

One of the misconceptions that I see regarding youth teams is that more money spent=more/better players developed. That's blatantly untrue in world football, and untrue in MLS. Most estimates show that Seattle, Portland, the Caps, KC, and Philly spend the most on youth development, but Philly is the only top 5 team in that group in terms of output. The single best predictor of academy production is the number of youth soccer players in a team's homegrown area. With $100 million in investment a year the Caps couldn't produce like Palmeiras. In fact, many Mexican teams invest almost nothing in their academy under the ideology that great facilities make players soft.