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Copa América Centenario - June 3rd to 26th 2016


Olympique_de_Marseille

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To be fair, I didn't say they haven't made progress, I'm saying progress has not been overwhelming. Going from not qualifying to qualifying the world cup in one of the smallest federations and getting fairly consistently knocked out in the group stage or the 16 is not overwhelming progress after two decades, and certainly not progress that warrants Canada handing it's reigns over to, or using it as an example of how to get things done right in soccer.

A big portion of my post was about the US media failing to call out development and their spot in the world for what it is, and that is part of the reason why it doesn't get fixed. It's not even the loss, a loss which is what everyone expected. They didn't even have a shot...literally. I agree with you, MLS is not good enough to beat Argentina, as few leagues can make a claim against them, and even fewer leagues on this side of the pond. I don't dispute that at all. What I am saying is MLS after two decades isn't even good enough to produce players that can even hope to draw, or lose by a small margin, or even compete against them. How much time has to pass before with the same results before we can say "Alright, the US system is fundamentally broken, maybe we shouldn't be mimicking it or trusting in it to get us over the qualifying hump never mind actually winning" another 20 years? 

As far as why start the CPL, because our association can have say on our own development, and more focus can be put on developing for the national team, deepening our player pool, giving more of our players meaningful minutes and making money on the idea that we aren't the best in the world, but that we are local, Canadian soccer. We can look to other leagues an how they find success both for their clubs and national teams instead of pretending the US has the answers and believing in their own hype.

To be fair too, I'm not even saying abandon MLS or the US development system, yet. Sadly, apart from the NASL, MLS/USL is the only place we are getting minutes at all apart from a handful of guys overseas. It's this idea that somehow their system, which puts the US development (one of our largest and direct CONCAAF rivals) as a priority over us, that has only produced adequate to good (not great, not exceptional) results for their own national team, in a league which only requires 9 Canadians to play in it's top flight, is somehow better for us to develop then us starting our own and we should devote our resources to it. That somehow we are going to get better then they are by trusting our development to their farm system, which has no promotion or relegation, which has more incentive towards developing US players then Canadians will benefit us more and that the CPL is somehow going to setback that already messed up development path even further.

As I said, maybe I'm off base. Argentina is currently ranked #1 compared to the US's 30 something. I just think after more then 20 years with the size of the US talent pool and the resources they have to throw at it, and being able to qualify for the same tournaments Argentina is qualifying for, that if it was making such strides it would have produced something more then complete annihilation and that the gap would have closed somewhat.

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Oh boy here we go, so I guess the Mexican League can't be that good because they got really thrashed 7-0, I guess the Mexican media needs to tone it down to because the Mexicans are not as good as what the Mexican media has made them out to be, the Mexican media needs to be realistic. If you look at the US's results in the past World Cups it is probably just as good or even better than the Mexican's, a country that lives and breathes soccer, soccer is king there, all the other sports are a distance second. The US where soccer is still probably fifth in the pecking order has done quite well since they made it back to the World Cup in Italy in 1990, never looking back. They have been out of their group a few times even making a quarter final in a game where they lost to Germany on a controversial goal. I would give my right leg to have Canada even make a fucken World Cup never mind doing pretty well in the World Cup as the US has done in a few occasions in the World Cup. For a country where so many other sports are kings and where mainstream media still seems to have a problem with soccer, they have done pretty good. If you think that magically the CPL will make such a big difference in Canadian soccer then you will be in for a rude awakening, there are still a lot more underlying factors to Canadian soccer than just developing a CPL.  Will the MLS ever be a league that rivals the big leagues in Europe who knows it might never but does it have to?  Will the other hockey leagues around the world or basketball leagues around the world ever rival the NHL or the NBA I doubt it but does it matter if they ever do? Moreover, the Argentina team is one special team with the greatest ever soccer player we have ever scene. The US apart from the Argentina game did well in my opinion beating some good South American teams on their way to the semi final. You put say the same England team that is at the Euro's for example in last night's game and I don't think the result would have been that much different. In terms of trying to emulate what the US is doing as a bad thing, well if it gets Canada consistently to World Cups like the US has and even making it out of group play like the US has then yes of course you would try to emulate that. We have made no World Cups since 1986 where we went scoreless and we have a problem with emulating a country that has made every World Cup since 1990 and done pretty well at a few of them,  really!

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9 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

Here is my take on it.

1. The US media needs to understand that it does not benefit their national team by putting blinders on and not call out the level that the US National Team plays at. The US is not a world power in soccer, MLS is not one of the top leagues in the world, soccer development in the US is not exceptional. It's irritating as all heck to witness this kind of absurd flag waving and even more irritating to watch the scapegoating after the fact.

2. It's losses like these that make me question even more when so many people want to cement our development to the MLS (or rather the USL, MLS's farm league since MLS has pitiful Canadian player requirements) when it's abundantly clear that MLS isn't even capable of generating strong enough US talent, nevermind Canadian talent where we are nothing more then an afterthought. I mean, this wasn't just a 0-4 loss, but not a single shot on goal this game with 6 starts from MLS. Maybe I'm a bit out of line on this, as Argentina is probably the best in the world, but after a generation of MLS being around, the US has only seen the smallest improvements. Why people still want to rip into the idea of another development path in the CPL, perplexes me even more.

The Dutch didn't make the Euros.  Better shut down the Eredivisie because it is obviously not producing any positive results for the Netherlands.  ;)

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The US did as expected in the Copa - not really well or really bad. Though, they did beat the low expectations going in because a lot of fans & media have soured on Klinsmann.

They were easily outclassed by Colombia & Argentina which was no surprise. I don't give much credence to results from any third place match.

They beat Costa Rica which is a usually a toss up match but given the home field advantage, the US was favoured to win. Only surprise was the 4-0 scoreline which in part was due to bad tactical formation set up by the Costa Rican manager.

Paraguay is ranked below the US, doesn't play as well on the road and hasn't won this year. At best a marginal surprise it wasn't a tie.

Ecuador is tied for first in qualifying but hasn't won on the road ex against last place Vino Tintos and has won only against Haiti in 2016. So, it was a toss up match against the US and credit for the US for producing a win.

The results show the US has a solid core of players and good organization & spirit. But they have no truly elite players today and haven't produced any (closest would be Donovan & Dempsey and Howard if goalkeepers count). So, they can't play the system Klinsmann ultimately wants. But if they realize their limitations and play within their talent level, they should consistently be a top 25-30 team or middle power with some wins here and there against the top 5 teams - if lucky, the win happens during a tourney. 

 To be an elite country, their youth development system and youth football culture needs much improvement. The clear evidence of this was shown last night where every single Argentina player was comfortable with the ball and making accurate passes of any length. They passed the ball around like the old Soviet team with a hockey puck. 

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1 hour ago, mrstepp817 said:

Last night was really a perfect storm, US gave up an early goal, had 3 guys on yellow suspension and ohh they were playing Argentina....bad combo...I think JK is fine now but more poor efforts and that heat will likely turn back up again..

The US could have done better had not them being so lazy at marking. Hard to believe JK would do such a strategy, or maybe he was as scared as the players.

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Yes, the US could have  done better since they didn't have even have any shots directed on goal let alone forcing the goalkeeper to make a save. If the US played better, it would have been a loss of 4-1. 

This also assumes Argentina played the same as they were only about 30% of the match in first gear. Di Maria was also injured and they didn't bother to play Aguero. 

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On the business side of things, Univision is making an absolute fortune from this tournament. 

 

Univision has sold $135 million in advertising for the Copa America Centenario, almost double the $70 million it paid to broadcast the international tournament.

With three matches to go, the Spanish-language channel has recorded 20 percent more ad revenue than anticipated, according to Juan Carlos Rodriguez, president of Univision Deportes. The winner of the Chile-Colombia semifinal on Wednesday meets Argentina in Sunday’s final at Met Life Stadium in New Jersey; the loser will play the U.S. for third place on Saturday.

The better-than-expected sales come as the company plans an initial public offering in the second half of the year. New York-based Univision, part-owned by Grupo Televisa SAB and a quartet of private equity firms -- Saban Capital Group Inc., Madison Dearborn Partners, Providence Equity Partners Inc., TPG and Thomas H. Lee Partners -- could raise as much as $1 billion in its IPO.

 

Univision’s Copa matches have made it the most-watched sports network in June, regardless of language, Rodriguez said, beating out ESPN and Fox Sports: “It was David versus Goliath, and David won.”

The $70 million from Univision represents about half of what broadcasters paid for the TV rights to the 16-team competition, a one-off event to celebrate the 100th year of South America’s national team tournament. Univision has spent about $5 million on its TV coverage.

After U.S. authorities said the event was central to a massive international bribery scandal, it was unclear whether the tournament could survive. But Rodriguez and officials from Televisa helped rescue it, participating in talks between South American soccer governing body Conmebol and its North and Central American counterpart Concacaf.

“When the first game started, I cried like a baby," Rodriguez said. “I thought it was never going to happen. It took too many meetings, too many flights and too many lawyers. But the great thing is everything got aligned.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-22/univision-doubles-money-on-70-million-bet-on-copa-America

 

 

It's been reported elsewhere that Fox paid 15 million for the rights and their ratings have set multiple soccer viewership records for their sports networks

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2016/06/copa-america-ratings-fox-sports-most-watched-mens-soccer-usmnt/

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2016/06/copa-america-ratings-usmnt-fs1-viewership-univision-argentina-chile/ 

 

It's only fair to assume that if a repeat of this tournament ever happened the organizers would have the leverage to demand exponentially more money for the media rights

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2 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

It's only fair to assume that if a repeat of this tournament ever happened the organizers would have the leverage to demand exponentially more money for the media rights

Another 100 years is a long time to wait. Nobody hear will still be around.  Snif snif!

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1 hour ago, The Ref said:

Another 100 years is a long time to wait. Nobody hear will still be around.  Snif snif!

Not if thr rumoured Combined Copa America happens soon and the Gold Cup goes the way of the dodo.  I think talk are being held, but ESPN Deported jumped the gun on the negotiationss with a recent article.  I think CONCACAF eill realize that more viewers prefer this Copa over the Gold Cup.  The worse part of this Copa America is that the US and Canadian media need to show more enthusiasm, outside of a few hardcore reporters.  I think if Canada is in this combined Copa America, expect more TSN viewers.

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The US and Canadian mainstream media are always late to the party when it comes to do with anything soccer related. I'm old enough to remember when the World Cup was no televised in North America, you had to go watch it and pay to get in at closed circuit venues like the old Maple Leaf Gardens here in Toronto . Media coverage of the World Cup was almost non existent in the mainstream media and we are talking around the late 70's . Now look at the coverage even the Euros get, the Euros back in the day were even more of a non isue with the North American mainstream media now look it the coverage, it took them awhile but it looks like reluctantly they finally had to get on board when they saw the potential money that could have been made, however imagine the money that could have been made a lot earlier if the mainstream media had covered the World Cups and Euros instead of waiting until about the early 90's to get on board.

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3 hours ago, 1996 said:

The US and Canadian mainstream media are always late to the party when it comes to do with anything soccer related. I'm old enough to remember when the World Cup was no televised in North America, you had to go watch it and pay to get in at closed circuit venues like the old Maple Leaf Gardens here in Toronto . Media coverage of the World Cup was almost non existent in the mainstream media and we are talking around the late 70's . Now look at the coverage even the Euros get, the Euros back in the day were even more of a non isue with the North American mainstream media now look it the coverage, it took them awhile but it looks like reluctantly they finally had to get on board when they saw the potential money that could have been made, however imagine the money that could have been made a lot earlier if the mainstream media had covered the World Cups and Euros instead of waiting until about the early 90's to get on board.

We still have to pay to watch the Copa América Centenario as shown in Univision.  Thanks God to internet streams.

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6 minutes ago, mrstepp817 said:

Best way to not be an also ran is to keep playing CONEMBOL teams...improvement comes from higher competition...Mexico/USA has to play those type of teams, can't take the next steps beating up on El Salvador

Very true.  However with the way the US played against Colombia they are going nowhere.  Perhaps a change of Klingsman is in order.  Mexico should recover from their 0-7.  Insofar as Canada, I rather not go there.

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This tournament just exposed the abysmal quality of the USA and its pathetic effort of 26 years trying to be competitive. Canada has better talent than the US and if they fix a few things the Canadian team will be superior to the US team. If Canada becomes competitive the USA will never quality for another World Cup and that will be great for everyone. Also, the MLS is low quality raw sewage and NOBODY should allow it to develop players. Please launch the CPL and it will be better than MLS in less than 5 years. We all can agree that a Canadian club will win the CCL before an American one ever sees the final. Look at Australia, the A-League started 10 years later than MLS and they have already surpassed it!

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4 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

You seem like a real quality addition. An American team has already been to the final of the CCL, BTW.

An American team stopped Spain's most brilliant run in the lead up to the WC in S Africa, no less. Talk about fiercely competitive.

If anyone thinks the US getting to semis is a definitive argument against them, they are simply in denial. That is reasonably as high as you could expect them to get in the tournament, it is in fact good as they are not amongst the top 4 in rankings. 

Then there is this amazing idea about playing a third place game badly being an "argument" of worth. It's not, the game does not matter and probably should not be played, except in the Olympics where a medal is meaningful. 

The US did great. We did not qualify. Get some frigging perspective Canada fans.

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12 hours ago, Mister215Guy said:

This tournament just exposed the abysmal quality of the USA and its pathetic effort of 26 years trying to be competitive. Canada has better talent than the US and if they fix a few things the Canadian team will be superior to the US team. If Canada becomes competitive the USA will never quality for another World Cup and that will be great for everyone. Also, the MLS is low quality raw sewage and NOBODY should allow it to develop players. Please launch the CPL and it will be better than MLS in less than 5 years. We all can agree that a Canadian club will win the CCL before an American one ever sees the final. Look at Australia, the A-League started 10 years later than MLS and they have already surpassed it!

We probably have better raw talent than the US and more of our top athletes will end up choosing the sport over American kids no doubt. However, to surpass the US, we will need that league.

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The Copa Centenario is finished and is the only one we will ever see, at least not for another hundred years.  I am disappointed that this thread talked almost all about money and not about soccer, teams competing, their styles and players. 

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11 hours ago, Macksam said:

I think the main point Hammer is trying to make is that we need our own league.

It's not even that we need our own league, but realistically that's the immediate discussion after the points are made.

The point is twofold. The first is that the US media needs to stop flag waving and call out US Soccer for it's failures and start asking the questions of "Why aren't we using development systems, league structures and academy systems that we know work in other places in the world and instead sticking to the flawed NCAA development path, segmented individual league pyramid and a high cost academy progression". It's annoying, and doesn't help thier development and regrettably as a result being linked to them, ours. Basically, I feel that 20+ years of rope is more then enough.

The second, is that MLS, which is supposed to be the league generating US talent (not Canadian talent) after 20+ years has been generating talent that ranks somewhere between adequate to good, not great, not exceptional and certainly not world class. Iceland, with a fraction of the populace and a fraction of the money has made far faster and longer strides in development then the US. Same with Chile, same with Australia. Despite this fact staring us in the face, some people still say "What is best for Canada is to devote and link itself to the US system". Basically that what is best for Canadian development is to be put all of our eggs into being the best possible second fiddle in a system that is somewhere between meh and solid.

I'm not going to pretend that the CPL is the answer, because if they run the CPL the same way the US is running its system, it's not going to make major advances (albeit should make some form of advancement through merit of more teams), but when people dump on the idea and to say it's not worth investment compared to doubling down in a system that even if it worked exceptionally well (which some feel it is, and I disagree), we would still be an afterthought in it, is a far more flawed argument in my eyes.  Even more so when that system is showing clear cracks, restrictive policies and a snail like progression at the very least.

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On 6/27/2016 at 1:11 AM, Macksam said:

We probably have better raw talent than the US and more of our top athletes will end up choosing the sport over American kids no doubt. However, to surpass the US, we will need that league.

I don't know about that. I think the US has more potential talent, if only through merits of its population size, but so much of it is unrealized because of how messed up their social/economic, immigration and soccer development systems are and the overwhelming emphasis of development in other sports.

I think the fact that so much of our sports development is devoted to hockey (a predominantly high cost winter sport), and that our Football development while big out west and improving across the nation, isn't to the absurd levels as it is in the US. That leaves us more then enough room to press soccer development in a faster, more meaningful way then the US. It is just a matter of cleaning up our current model and using a model that works, of which I don't feel the US model is the one for us. However I digress, how about Columbia eh? Blanking the US twice.

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