Copa América Centenario - June 3rd to 26th 2016

[PaulV]

I had never heard of Univision Canada in my life, but just learnt that it is the same channel that used to be called TLN en Espanol. Looks like a lot of the TLN channels are on free preview on Cogeco according to the web site, so lucky you if you're on Cogeco. It's getting very little 'buzz' around here that I can see, whereas the Euros are being talked about everywhere. Being on TSN help obviously.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 10:16 PM, Unnamed Trialist said:

Could you explain what you mean by a "cash grab", I don't get it. 

If you were playing in more crowded stadiums in South America, with the same teams, wouldn't they be making more money?  They'd have the TV deals and fuller stadiums. Wouldn't that be the real cash grab?

 

Attendance is far exceeding last year's tournament in Chile and the tickets are exponentially more expensive.   

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

Attendance is far exceeding last year's tournament in Chile and the tickets are exponentially more expensive.   

The cost of producing the tournament is probably ten times more expensive in the US than in Chile.

I could run it down for you if you want.

But you missed the point, that was not the question at all. 

[CanadianSoccerFan]

4 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The cost of producing the tournament is probably ten times more expensive in the US than in Chile.

I could run it down for you if you want.

But you missed the point, that was not the question at all. 

"Probably ten times" eh??   Makes you wonder how they can afford to pay out more than double the prize money they did last year.   

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

"Probably ten times" eh??   Makes you wonder how they can afford to pay out more than double the prize money they did last year.   

I can assure you just opening any stadium in North America is about ten times more expensive than doing the same in most South American countries. For a start. The margin is much higher in South America on the Copa.

The possibilities for local corruption are higher. The Comebol officials who are corrupt would never in their right mind organize outside of the region because they'd lose control of their structures of corruption. Going to the US is probably a more honest decision, given the recent corruption proceedings against Leoz, who could not even visit the tournament because he has an extradition order from the US justice system hanging over his head.

Case in point: Jack Warner, our former regional president, did most of his corrupt dealings in his own backyard, in Trinidad, because that is where he could control the strings. Did Jack make money off the World u-20 in Canada, did he see us as a way to perpetuate financial misdealings? Did Blatter as well?

I don't think so: they gave tournaments to Canada because it was a way to buy our complicity in the overall system of FIFA and Concacaf back-scratching. And we were happy to have our backs scratched.

The point is that "cash grab" is a meaningless phrase when repeated unthinkingly to criticize the economic structure of something like a sports tournament. For example, the 76 Olympics were not a cash grab, so this, somehow was a good thing then? Let's organize a tournament, and not make money, not even think about the bottom line. Hey, let's lose money, public money even, then the pundits will be happy. Because otherwise, the financial geniuses on social media will come along and accuse us of organizing the thing to "grab" money. And that would be unbearable. 

 

 

[ted]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

..."cash grab" is a meaningless phrase when repeated unthinkingly to criticize the economic structure of something like a sports tournament.

I think you are missing a couple of key points.

"unthinkingly" implies that the many pundits, analysts and Voyageurs who have made this claim are stupid or lazy. Some might be, but I would use the term "cash grab" and I am neither.

"economic structure" is not being discussed here. The decision to hold the tournament in the US was the "cash grab". It has been widely reported and documented that the money available to the organizers was hugely in excess of any other proposal. All this before the tournament started.

The details of how they are making the money they hoped to make are irrelevant to the motivation and the idea of a "cash grab". Now those details WILL be important when the tournament is over and we see if they were right or not.

 

 

[Dub Narcotic]

Everything in soccer is a 'cash grab'. It's such a lazy, pointless criticism.

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, ted said:

I think you are missing a couple of key points.

"unthinkingly" implies that the many pundits, analysts and Voyageurs who have made this claim are stupid or lazy. Some might be, but I would use the term "cash grab" and I am neither.

"economic structure" is not being discussed here. The decision to hold the tournament in the US was the "cash grab". It has been widely reported and documented that the money available to the organizers was hugely in excess of any other proposal. All this before the tournament started.

The details of how they are making the money they hoped to make are irrelevant to the motivation and the idea of a "cash grab". Now those details WILL be important when the tournament is over and we see if they were right or not.

 

 

Actually what I am really doing is saying people saying "cash grab" use it as a lazy way of writing off the tournament, am really saying they do not care a bit what happens in the rest of the Americas or in this tournament. They don't care about the Copa America, so it's a cash grab. And "cash grab" is what you say instead of saying that other thing. That you you do not give a flying fck about the competition. 

Anyone interested in a club they follow and its competition pardons a lot worse, on a daily basis, for decades. A lot worse in terms of financial and ethical contradiction and scandal. Very few people abandon their club they have followed their whole lives, and if you could find 2% of a club's followers saying stuff like this misnomer we are talking about, it'd be a lot. I happen to know some people like this, they are exceptional, but also old like me and tired of the BS. One does not feel like supporting a certain club, he's supported since the 60s, because Mourinho will be the new manager. Thing is, no one saying "cash grab" here has ever followed the Copa America closely, up close and intimate. They did not care before and are making lame arguments now.

In any case, the cash grabbing was worse when it was held in smaller Comebol nations, just ask Leoz who was there for decades and thrived on it. Ask Warner, who made tens of millions for himself and family in little Trinidad. And answer me this: was having the Women's WC in Canada, with the biggest crowds ever, a "cash grab" too? And why not? Have you seen the financial statements?

 

[ted]

The WWC was a totally different situation. It is a tournament that can be held anywhere as it is a FIFA tournament.

What we have with the Copa is more like UEFA holding the next Euro tournament in Dubai, a different federation, or Charlton Athletic hosting an FA Cup game against Manchester United at the Olympic Stadium.

Now, I can call it as I see it and it has nothing to do with "writing off" the tournament. You cannot argue the truth of the concept and it seems to me I could say it is just as lazy to lump all critics together in this manner.

Lets all be lazy, enjoy some football and ignore the corporate bastards who corrupt the beautiful game just enough to ensure we can watch it on TV.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

24 minutes ago, ted said:

The WWC was a totally different situation. It is a tournament that can be held anywhere as it is a FIFA tournament.

What we have with the Copa is more like UEFA holding the next Euro tournament in Dubai, a different federation, or Charlton Athletic hosting an FA Cup game against Manchester United at the Olympic Stadium.

Now, I can call it as I see it and it has nothing to do with "writing off" the tournament. You cannot argue the truth of the concept and it seems to me I could say it is just as lazy to lump all critics together in this manner.

Lets all be lazy, enjoy some football and ignore the corporate bastards who corrupt the beautiful game just enough to ensure we can watch it on TV.

Your simile does not work Ted, it is a simple cultural misunderstanding, but you put it on a platter for me. 

Something you learn living in Spain, or South America. People hear you are Canadian and they say you are "Americano". The United States is part of America, and so is Chile. So is Whitehorse for a lot of people. I met a guy tonight born in Toronto from a Chilean family who went back young, I'm another Americano to him. I am not saying everyone has this idea, but a powerful part of Comebol does.

We have this merely cartographic idea in Canada, which is influenced by Anglo-North American ideas about the contintent. Oh, there is this thin spot, and a canal cutting through it: they are south and we are north, and we'll put a central in there too for good luck. Spanish speakers have no trouble thinking it is more natural to play Copa America with ALL of America. It is  in fact more authentic. It is the real tournament, not the one forced on them by a FIFA confederation. It has nothing to do with playing a European competition in Dubai, as Dubai is not Europe. but the US is America.

Funny, the name even says so. 

I'll go even further. Including the US in the tournament is also a way to break down the historical barrier where the States has no committment to the Americas beyond keeping the DEA busy or meddling or overthrowing governments that are not friendly to them. Getting the US into the fold has a powerful geopolitical message, and is unifying, essentially. For the rest of the Americas to get the US even more into the game, and into the continent, is all part of a complex package. 

I don't expect Canadians to get this, because we are the cultural freaks of the entire hemisphere in this regard. We have no clue what part of the world we are living in, too many think Canada is like a big island a few days off Southampton.

[ted]

17 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Your simile does not work Ted, it is a simple cultural misunderstanding, but you put it on a platter for me. 

Something you learn living in Spain, or South America. People hear you are Canadian and they say you are "Americano". ..

WTF are you talking about now?!? The only "cultural misunderstanding" seems to be that you are arguing a totally different question!

I was addressing the issue of whether "cash grab" was a legitimate criticism of this tournament. WTF did I say ANYTHING about living in "the Americas"? !?! 

CONMEBOL is the federation of South American nations. Holding THEIR tournament anywhere outside of South America - North America, Asia, Australia - is all the same thing and it is reasonable to argue that doing so was motivated by nothing more than a desire to maximise the amount of money.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, ted said:

WTF are you talking about now?!? The only "cultural misunderstanding" seems to be that you are arguing a totally different question!

I was addressing the issue of whether "cash grab" was a legitimate criticism of this tournament. WTF did I say ANYTHING about living in "the Americas"? !?! 

CONMEBOL is the federation of South American nations. Holding THEIR tournament anywhere outside of South America - North America, Asia, Australia - is all the same thing and it is reasonable to argue that doing so was motivated by nothing more than a desire to maximise the amount of money.

 

It's not called Copa Sudamericano, Ted. You don't get it, and that is a cultural misunderstanding, it seems, or you are insisting on this very simplistic idea "well it is their tournament so....."

It is the one major tournament that has regularly invited other nations in, "American" nations, and has fought to include Mexico for years, for example, because their idea of the Americas is not bound to an administrative boundary drawn by FIFA. A policy that actually makes their tournament harder to win, since they invite competitive teams, as this one has proved  as well. (Uruguay and Brazil out).

In fact, we were invited also, and set to go, our players were travelling to Colombia. Then we pulled out, stupidly as was proved within about a week. We pulled out because in Canada, we were blinded by security concerns, when there were not in fact any of any importance. We pulled because we have government officials here who don't get it either. I made that argument in full when the events happened at the time on this board (Network 54), in full. 

Including us and all the rest in the tournament is part of holding a fully authentic Copa America. So it is entirely natural and neither artificial or a mere "cash grab" to hold the tournament, totally exceptionally in the US of America.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

Posted this 15 years ago on "this" board after Canada chose not to go to the Copa in Colombia. Just a bit of context, not sure I agree with everything I said but more or less similar jist:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/4693/message/994457655/A+tough+decision-+but+the+wrong+one

 

[RJB]

I must be honest, and say that part of the reason I find this tournament annoying and somewhat disinteresting is that it's simply a competition for the USA.  I'm sick of watching them pat themselves on the back for all of these home wins in tournament after tournament. Them and England are seemingly the only teams to have won a tournament(continental or World Cup) but never away from home. 

I know, I know, I'd sing a different tune if Canada was in it.  Doubtless.  When will the Euros be held in the US? (and not the regular Euros, but a special one outside the usual cycle)

[koolvid]

49 minutes ago, RJB said:

I must be honest, and say that part of the reason I find this tournament annoying and somewhat disinteresting is that it's simply a competition for the USA.  I'm sick of watching them pat themselves on the back for all of these home wins in tournament after tournament. Them and England are seemingly the only teams to have won a tournament(continental or World Cup) but never away from home. 

I know, I know, I'd sing a different tune if Canada was in it.  Doubtless.  When will the Euros be held in the US? (and not the regular Euros, but a special one outside the usual cycle)

When the Euro's include the same continental name as the one the U.S is in and begins to invite them to the original tournament. CONCACAF teams in Copa America isn't anything new and there's been talks for a long time for a possible merger whether it's tournaments or  WC qualifying. It's not just a tournament for the US but the top CONCACAF teams facing actual qualify opponents rather then the minnow fest the Gold Cup is filled with. The tournament is looking good for USA and possibly Mexico as well. And now CR/Jamaica can make some much needed adjustment for the future/WCQers. 

[mrstepp817]

The tournament for the US is already a big success making the semi-finals is big...Mexico's expectations are bigger I think anything short of playing in the championship will be disappointing for El Tri..this may be the only time we see a joint tournament but I think from a CONCACAF perspective its been very helpful

[ted]

18 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

It's not called Copa Sudamericano...

No kidding. That is part of the point.

You are ignoring the history of the competition in trying to falsely accuse me of something.

The Copa America was started 100 years ago (hence the "Centenario" part) and was originally called the South American Football Championship (Campeonato Sudamericano de Fútbol in Spanish). It has ALWAYS been the championship of CONMEBOL.

Teams from other confederations have been involved (CONCACAF and AFC) in the past to fill out the numbers as they are such a small confederation.

Until and unless CONCACAF merges the Gold Cup with the Copa America (which is a fine idea BTW) the idea that CONMEBOL holds their championship tournament OUTSIDE of CONMEBOL countries has nothing to do with sport and everything to do with chasing American dollars.

I don't understand why you are arguing such a basic fact and I fail to see what difference it makes to anyone's enjoyment of the tournament. Why can you not simply admit that the sky is blue, the sun rises in the east and CONMEBOL wants to make maximum profits on their showcase tournament?

 

[AvroArrow]

1 hour ago, ted said:

I don't understand why you are arguing such a basic fact and I fail to see what difference it makes to anyone's enjoyment of the tournament. Why can you not simply admit that the sky is blue, the sun rises in the east and CONMEBOL wants to make maximum profits on their showcase tournament?

 

Because the arguments of anyone who disagrees with the cosmopolitan gadfly are based on intolerance and not rational thought.

[nolbertos]

19 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Posted this 15 years ago on "this" board after Canada chose not to go to the Copa in Colombia. Just a bit of context, not sure I agree with everything I said but more or less similar jist:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/4693/message/994457655/A+tough+decision-+but+the+wrong+one

 

I remember that Jeffrey.  I was the one that broke the news in the V-board when Canada got invited in 2001.  I never would've imagined that Canada, of all countries, would get an invite, adn then Kevin Pipe and his CSA cronies, decide to not go, because of "security" concerns, as if Canadian players were playing in top teams in the EPL, La Liga, etc.  Honduras took our place and had a great tournament (3rd place finish), I recall, which probably contributed to the rise of Honduras from being equal to Guatemala for along time in futbolling sense, to now, making the Hex the last 2 World Cups and qualifying to the 2010 World Cup.  If we had taken that opportunity, who knows where we would be instead.  This Copa America would benefited the Canadian public and maybe we'd have been playing more attacking, rather than playing Floroball and defensive over the last 15 years.  If Mont Vic in power at CONCACAF, I hope he convinces CONMEBOL to give us an automatic invite, as playing against the likes of Ecuador, Venezuela, Uruguay, Paraguay, Peru, Chile, would help Canadian player realize the skillset required to have as a futbol player.

[The Ref]

Colombia wins over Peru on PKs. after a 0-0 tied game.

 

[Dub Narcotic]

Absolutely right. Can't believe they are corrupting the beautiful game of FIFA, UEFA, CONCACAF and Sepp Blatter.

Some other cash grabs:

2016 24 team Euro

UEFA Champions League

'Premier' League

Champions Cups

Europa League

Looks like we are in good company.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Dub Narcotic said:

Absolutely right. Can't believe they are corrupting the beautiful game of FIFA, UEFA, CONCACAF and Sepp Blatter.

Some other cash grabs:

2016 24 team Euro

UEFA Champions League

'Premier' League

Champions Cups

Europa League

Looks like we are in good company.

 

What is a Champions Cup?

[Blackdude]

1 hour ago, canta15 said:

What is a Champions Cup?

I'm guessing he means the Super Cups.

[AvroArrow]

8 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

Absolutely right. Can't believe they are corrupting the beautiful game of FIFA, UEFA, CONCACAF and Sepp Blatter.

Some other cash grabs:

2016 24 team Euro

UEFA Champions League

'Premier' League

Champions Cups

Europa League

Looks like we are in good company.

When the Italian Super Cup is held in Qatar or China, I entirely agree with you.  I'm glad you've come around to see the light.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Supercoppa_Italiana

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Supercoppa_Italiana

[Ruffian]

9 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Calling this version of the Copa America a "cash grab" seems like fair comment to me, since it is clearly being played in the US for the money and at the expense of some sporting integrity.

I agree it is a cash grab and that is a good thing but how is it at the expense of some sporting integrity?