It appears that NASL Commish Bill Peterson hasn't given up on Canada yet

[masster]

9 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Nana Attakora provides the prime example that the sort of Canadian player that people think is being actively disadvantaged by the MLS roster rules is actually just not quite good enough to interest MLS teams. The other problem with the narrative on this is that most MLS teams have open roster spots available for additional international players, because the total number allowed was boosted in response to expansion to around 8 per team, which appears to be beyond the level that most teams actually want to use.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_International_Roster_Slots#Current_international_roster_slots_by_team

Attakora is a prime example of a player that is not very good that keeps getting looks on American NASL teams because he has a green card. So in my opinion, the narrative holds true.

[BearcatSA]

On January 4, 2016 at 9:46 PM, masster said:

According to Sandor, Attakora does have a green card. Also, the rules in MLS and NASL are not different. Canadians are imports in both league. It was the USL that counted Canadians as domestics in the US. Not sure if that is still the case.

That's my understanding, too.  I've never understood Garber's labour law argument when you have one of those three leagues counting Canadians as domestics.

[ted]

On 2016-01-04 at 9:46 PM, masster said:

According to Sandor, Attakora does have a green card. Also, the rules in MLS and NASL are not different. Canadians are imports in both league. It was the USL that counted Canadians as domestics in the US. Not sure if that is still the case.

Please stop confusing US Immigration law and Green Cards with league rules. That is the bullshit Don Garber has been trying to confuse people with from the beginning and has been shown to be false.
 

Rules regarding "domestics" are entirely and totally a creation of the league. Anyone with a legal work permit can play on a team. Any team could be made up 100% of Green Card holders if the league changed the rules.

[masster]

1 hour ago, ted said:

Please stop confusing US Immigration law and Green Cards with league rules. That is the bullshit Don Garber has been trying to confuse people with from the beginning and has been shown to be false.
 

Rules regarding "domestics" are entirely and totally a creation of the league. Anyone with a legal work permit can play on a team. Any team could be made up 100% of Green Card holders if the league changed the rules.

I am not confusing anything. Having a green card means you count as a domestic under the rules set out by those leagues.

[-Hammer-]

2 hours ago, ted said:

Please stop confusing US Immigration law and Green Cards with league rules. That is the bullshit Don Garber has been trying to confuse people with from the beginning and has been shown to be false.
 

Rules regarding "domestics" are entirely and totally a creation of the league. Anyone with a legal work permit can play on a team. Any team could be made up 100% of Green Card holders if the league changed the rules.

From my understanding MLS's rule regarding a "domestic" player comes down from the USSF (or at least, it should be, if it's not MLS has chosen to implement it regardless). It might not be an official policy, (because MLS self regulates this to their satisfaction) but it's probably implied at the very least. It is basically a player that could be selected to play for the US National Team or (in the case of the three Canadian MLS teams) could be selected to play on the Canadian National Team. 

Those criteria (which are the same across FIFA except for in the UK due to it's multi association)
(a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(d) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.

with option dual association for territories of countries that have seperate FIFA national teams like Puerto Rico and the US or the Cook Islands and New Zealand. The UK being the exception, where Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland only accept their own regional players and England accepting their own and the UK's various territories (like Bermuda or the Falklands).

Anyone who doesn't qualify as above, takes a non-domestic slot, per league rules.

----

In addition, the US has it's own labor laws that the league has to follow, but are almost always easy to skirt for sports leagues. As long as you don't mandate a foreign worker requirement (as the CFL encountered it during it's ill fated US expansion with it's non-import rule) you can typically dance around immigration on this issue from my understanding. Pretty much, this requires getting a work VISA, which any league that has foreign players has lawyers who know exactly how to word and get the VISA approved. They are almost always approved for any top level pro-sports because, the ability to play a sport and fit into a team niche/role I'm pretty sure has precedent in the courts I believe, as something next to impossible for immigration to prove that an American can do the same job.

From my understanding, pretty much the only circumstances where it is blocked is if the player has an existing criminal record in his own country, or is on a government law enforcement watch list (FBI, CIA, Homeland Security etc). That said, if the player is released, usually the VISA dries up quick and the player has to head home or risk deportation unless he's gotten citizenship/married during his stay. Bottom line though, ted is right. Green Card status has little to no meaning, because even without one most leagues can get you that VISA with ease. Pretending it's a major barrier might be true in other industries, it's not for sports.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

19 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

Anyone who doesn't qualify as above, takes a non-domestic slot, per league rules.

Once you have a green card in the US or permanent resident status in Canada you count as a domestic player in MLS or NASL terms regardless of national team affiliation, because labour laws would not allow workplace discrimination related to national team eligibility requirements under FIFA rules.

[-Hammer-]

2 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Once you have a green card in the US or permanent resident status in Canada you count as a domestic player in MLS or NASL terms regardless of national team affiliation, because labour laws would not allow workplace discrimination related to national team eligibility requirements under FIFA rules.

Normally I'd agree with you, but actually am part of a union, and know that a decent chunk of labour laws actually fall mute when a union and collective bargaining agreement are in place provided the union is operating in "Good Faith". So legally, you may or may not be correct, so I'm gonna defer that to someone with more sports labour law experience then I.

This is why Union decertification is required before anti-trust proceedings occur against sports leagues that threaten lockouts. The labor laws which allow employees to go after employers and sue them for damages (as a result of having a sports monopoly) and certain other negotiated reasons are not applicable when a Union is present.

The assumption by the government is, the Union operating in good faith with the league ensures no player's rights are being trodden upon unfairly, and thus anti-trust exemptions and various labour law exemptions are allowed to exist because the collective bargaining unit will provide the right (often superior) conditions for the employees. Of course certain other labour laws always get applied regardless.

Regardless, the biggest issue is proving discrimination. You have to prove that you are in fact as good as qualified and fit into the niche role on the MLS team but aren't so good that you can't just crack it in a non-domestic slot. Doing that, before you are even hired and with no other MLS team or foreign team making an offer for you and having all it's slots taken up? No easy task.

[ted]

On 2016-01-05 at 0:52 PM, masster said:

I am not confusing anything. Having a green card means you count as a domestic under the rules set out by those leagues.

You are in error. Please read the rules as they say no such thing.

[masster]

1 hour ago, ted said:

You are in error. Please read the rules as they say no such thing.

I am not. I had a discussion with Carl Robinson about this and he confirmed that as soon as he received a Green Card playing for Red Bull, he no longer counted as an international player.

[masster]

Look at the Whitecaps roster...players like Mattocks and Kah, although not Americans, are not listed as internationals.
http://www.whitecapsfc.com/players

[ted]

17 hours ago, masster said:

I am not. I had a discussion with Carl Robinson about this and he confirmed that as soon as he received a Green Card playing for Red Bull, he no longer counted as an international player.

You don't even understand what we are arguing do you?

You do understand that it is the MLS that makes that rule right? 

The whole point is that MLS has decided that they will have a double standard OF THEIR OWN CREATION.

The rule for US teams says, " a Domestic Player is a U.S. citizen, a permanent resident (green card holder) or the holder of other special status (e.g., refugee or asylum status)."

The rule for Canadian teams says, "Players with the legal right to work in Canada are considered Canadian domestic players (i.e., Canadian citizen, permanent resident, part of a protected class)."

[Source: http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/roster-rules-and-regulations]

Please not how the rule for Canadian teams is different and in fact makes any and all players who are paid by the MLS teams "domestic" players. If you have a work permit, which you must have to be paid to work in Canada, you have the legal right to work in Canada.

The United States Government does not require the different rules. They have no legislation or regulation that says the rule could not be one rule for all teams i.e. Players who are citizens or permanent  residents of the United States or Canada are considered domestic players.

It is entirely at the discretion of MLS who, if they so chose, could change the rule to require "domestic" players to have been born within 20 miles of the home stadium or to be the progeny of "natural born US citizens".

 

[masster]

That is exactly what I have been saying all along. You said that this statement I wrote is wrong.

"Having a green card means you count as a domestic under the rules set out by those leagues"

That is in fact correct.

[ted]

^ Sorry, you are right. I somehow thought you were arguing that the US Government determined who is and is not "domestic" for the league.

 

 

[-Hammer-]

5 hours ago, ted said:

The rule for US teams says, " a Domestic Player is a U.S. citizen, a permanent resident (green card holder) or the holder of other special status (e.g., refugee or asylum status)."

The rule for Canadian teams says, "Players with the legal right to work in Canada are considered Canadian domestic players (i.e., Canadian citizen, permanent resident, part of a protected class)."

[Source: http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/roster-rules-and-regulations]

If this is the case then, this looks to be the league house rule, separate from FIFA national team eligibility requirements which the USSF is fine with the league implementing despite FIFA national team eligibility rules. Probably because it's very unlikely a player would be eligible to play in MLS as a domestic but be ineligible (and opt to play) for the respective national team and because MLS (for whatever reason) doesn't want to potentially chance labor laws applying.

Regardless, the whole point of this argument is in the context of Canadian players who are on the cusp of being able to get into MLS don't, because MLS doesn't have enough guaranteed avenues/player quota/playing time requirements and that it is fair or unfair for MLS to do so because of what their fundamental goal in soccer is or should be.

If it's the promote and build MLS and make money, obviously they want the best players available, screw nationality as much as possible. They shouldn't even have a domestic restriction if that is the goal, save that local talent is inherently marketable.

If it's to build the US national team and give US players a place to play and develop but still be financially viable, then I'd say the current rules do a somewhat adequate job, given the consistent US presence in the world cup in the knockout stage, and the cast majority of playing coming from MLS. Still not quite good enough though to make it further then that though, but I suppose give it time.

If it's to build the Canadian national team, and give Canadian players a place to play and develop, but still be financially viable, then I'd say unless the league is struggling massively financially, this goal is not being accomplished. More then half our players come from outside MLS and while our Men's team is improving, we've yet to qualify for a World Cup since the 1986 before MLS even existed. There isn't enough guaranteed work and development being done.

That said though, it's a US league. Of course the primary concern is going to be the US over Canada.