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Vince193

Milan Borjan

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5 minutes ago, rightback said:

I'm strongly starting to suspect that Obinna and Unnamed Trialist were/are goalkeepers. 

 

I have mostly played fullback, which is probably why I am harsh on Godinho and sympathetic to Borjan. I would never blame Bojan for not getting to that **** pass and I am sure Godinho doesn't blame him either!

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Obinna said:

At 16:59 of that clip.

"He puts his hand out and apologizes to the group there, and wants to take accountability for what happenes..." - Paul Dolan

I took that as literal in game acknowledgement that he shares some responsibility by raising his hand to the team. Paul was talking in the context of the game.

I didn't take that as figuratively holding his hand up, as if to appologize to the group post-match. I didn't get the sense from Paul that Borjan made an appology to the team afterward the game, though he certainly could have. 

That said, I re-watched that moment in the game just now and didn't see Borjan hold his hand up, so I may be completely wrong with that, but most likely Paul was saying that Borjan figuratively held his hand up and took responsibility through his actions in the game thereafter. He also says the team rallied behind him after the mistaken. Again, in the context of their behavior on the pitch after concedind. But I don't know for sure. That's just my take on the Paul interview.

You can accuse me of misconstruing him, but I am honestly just giving my interpretation. If you want to blame me for that, not much I can do.

Is Borjan on record taking responsibility? Does anyone know?

And if so, that is actually a good thing. That is what a good teammate does. Especially when you a keeper, anytime there is a goal scored, you are ultimatly responsible. I actually hope he owned up to it and took responsibility.

None of that is enough to change my opinion on the play. Strictly from an analysis perspective, Godinho is still primarily to blame and Borjan is to blame in the broader sense that a keepers main job is not to let the ball in the net.

But thanks for sharing that clip, much appreciated!

You also have to consider he wasn't asked about Milan, he wasn't asked about the goal. He said the tournament came down to individual mistakes and voluntarily starts to talk about Milan and the goal. In a very diplomatic way because lets be honest Milan is great and we all think he's a huge asset. He's not Stephen A Smith or Skip Bayless talking oug his ass. Hes not going to outrageously call out Milan. Hes part of the coaching staff. Also must be noted he mentions no other player

 

I also want to challenge this notion that 1 mistake or a misplay defines a player or a players performance in a game. Everyone makes mistakes it happens. It doesnt define someone

Edited by SpursFlu

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

You also have to consider he wasn't asked about Milan, he wasn't asked about the goal. He said the tournament came down to individual mistakes and voluntarily starts to talk about Milan and the goal. In a very diplomatic way because lets be honest Milan is great and we all think he's a huge asset. He's not Stephen A Smith or Skip Bayless talking oug his ass. Hes not going to outrageously call out Milan. Hes part of the coaching staff. Also must be noted he mentions no other player

 

I also want to challenge this notion that 1 mistake or a misplay defines a player or a players performance in a game. Everyone makes mistakes it happens. It doesnt define someone

He probably brought up Borjan because it was clearly the most controversial play of the tournament for Canada. Also, isn't he a goal keeper coach?

Either way, as far as I can tell, he is not saying Milan issued an apology, admitting the goal was on him. Sorry @rightback :)

Agree that 1 mistake defines a player, whether it is Borjan or Godinho, though Marcus made 2 mistakes in the same match. 

Like I have said before, I believe in Godinho long-term. He'll think twice next time he wildly goes for a tackle in the box. Look at Henry, he picks his moments to go into the tackle much better now. Just comes with maturity.

I don't think Godinho even attempts that tackle if he didn't make the bad back pass. He was trying to make amends I think.

Edited by Obinna

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

Don't forget Milan has messed up in situations like this before. The goal against versus French Guiana sticks out. He kind of loses the benefit of the doubt due to his history.

Sure. I haven't forgotten. I am strictly analyzing this goal in isolation through.

My contention is not even that Borjan is blameless. I just disagree, very strongly, with those interpreting his back peddling those extra 6 yards as neglegence.

Certain posters insist on blaming him for that. Go ahead and blame him for the ball going into the net, but don't say he should have reacted quicker when he was already committed to back peddling.

By the time he recognized the pass was short, he had to make up 6 extra yards. Maybe it should have been 5 yards, or 4 yards, you guys decide - but it's not 0 yards. He was already backing up in anticipation of a strong pass (that didn't come). The brain can't instantaneously determine that pass was short. By the time he realized he had some ground to make up.

Does that make sense?

Edited by Obinna

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31 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I also want to challenge this notion that 1 mistake or a misplay defines a player or a players performance in a game. Everyone makes mistakes it happens. It doesnt define someone

True, just like one mistake early in the second half of a match of which we were in control (before and immediately after) should not be used as an excuse for a loss like this.  

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Obinna said:

You ignored my question.

If your contention is that he reacted too slow, what was a reasonable time for him to start reacting to the short back pass? 

Since this is still going...😆

The answer is IMMEDIATELY, as in the moment the pass was played.

When the ball is passed back to the keeper and an attacker is bearing down on it, the keeper has two choices: go forward and put his foot through it to clear the danger, or go backwards to try to buy some space so that he can use his superior ball skills to dodge past the onrushing attacker. Only one of these answers is correct!

In order to do the right thing, there is no need to first judge the weight of the pass. Backpass, attacker, clear. It should be automatic.

BTW, I love Borjan, I think he has been fantastic for us on many occasions and will be again on future occasions.

Edited by Lofty

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26 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

True, just like one mistake early in the second half of a match of which we were in control (before and immediately after) should not be used as an excuse for a loss like this.  

I am pretty confident that if they don't score at that moment we win that game. But we'll never know for sure 

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2 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I am pretty confident that if they don't score at that moment we win that game. But we'll never know for sure 

I was honestly pretty confident watching this in real time that we were going to win the game anyway even after this.  

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Lofty said:

Since this is still going...😆

The answer is IMMEDIATELY, as in the moment the pass was played.

When the ball is passed back to the keeper and an attacker is bearing down on it, the keeper has two choices: go forward and put his foot through it to clear the danger, or go backwards to try to buy some space so that he can use his superior ball skills to dodge past the onrushing attacker. Only one of these answers is correct!

In order to do the right thing, there is no need to first judge the weight of the pass. Backpass, attacker, clear. It should be automatic.

Okay, I see where you are coming from.

We are clearly looking at this situation in two completely different ways. 

Based on your point of view, when that backpass was played, Borjan should have immediately been thinking safety first. He shouldn't have been backing up before the pass to begin with, right? I totally get it man. He should have been ready to rush out and clear the ball from danger.

But hear me out. This is where I am coming from:

Borjan was, rightly or wrongly, already backing up. This was because the team (I am sure you have noticed) under John Herdman has been emphasized playing your way out of trouble. You may not like it, you may think we shouldn't play that style, but that is the reality of where this team is at. They have clearly been instructed to play this way ever since nations league began.

Since that is the modus operandi for our team at the moment...

- Borjan opted to start backing up in anticipation of the back pass.

- Borjan was expecting a strong pass back to his feet, with Godinho dropping and providing an angle for him

- Borjan recognizes the pass is short, but not before he has unfortunately dropped another 6 yards before recognizing.

^ My point was that, considering he was setting up to play out from the back, it was unfair to blame him for not getting to the ball and even more unfair to blame him for dropping even further. He was always going to end up dropping further before he recognized the short pass.

He is human and time has to elapse before you shift from "here comes the ball to my foot" to "oh ****...it's not getting to me"

Do you see where I am coming from now?

Thank you for taking the time to explain your point of view. Clearly you were not expecting him to instantly reverse course. You are saying he shouldn't have backed up in the first place. I am glad I had the patience to wait for your response to that.

I think we can meet in the middle and say, although the team has been emphasizing playing out from the back, Borjan needs to pick and choose these moments better. There is always risk when you play this way, unless you are Barcelona, right @Unnamed Trialist?

I think Herdman may want to consider tweaking the approach too. He may do well to get the team to play less often in this fashion. Sometimes you just need to slog the ball outta there, house league style. Overplaying has its dangers, for sure.

Cheers!

Edited by Obinna

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2 hours ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

Don't forget Milan has messed up in situations like this before. The goal against versus French Guiana sticks out. He kind of loses the benefit of the doubt due to his history.

Godinho also made a similar soft back pass in the Martinique game, which fortunately did not result in a goal against. Does he  not lose the benefit of the doubt due to his history? In the FG game Piette was also culpable for a soft back pass. Where the other team is using a high press with aggressive running there is very little room for error. A defender simply cannot play  a soft back pass to the keeper and expect him to deal with it  vet or not. I get that no one wants to blame a young player but if Godinho makes proper contact with the ball that's not a goal. A defender can always play the ball out for a corner. Perhaps a bit embarrassing but better than conceding a goal? Regardless of blame, going with 2 young FBs is a big ask and it showed in this GC.

 

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Posted (edited)

You are arguing about whether Borjan metaphorically or really raised his hand, when what he really did, in fact, was get frigging irate at Godinho for the back pass. Because it was horrible. 

And Början should know.

As I see it, the anger is what best describes the situation. What players on the MNT are on clubs with the most possession and the most tendency to pass back to the keeper to maintain it? There are two. Davies at Bayern, and Borjan at Red Star. Not even Besiktas dominates the way you think they should. I would guess in league, Red Star is the team that most dominates possession of any CMNT players' club. They totally dominate Serbia and play possession football. I would like to know which other team of a CMNT is even close. 

Borjan knows what a back pass is supposed to look like.He reacted appropriately based on that knowledge, and what sort of service he expects from a pro.  Another thing is whether he needed to control his anger for the good of the team. Or whether for team harmony and to not throw a young guy under the bus, you show maturity and help share around responsibility.

So Borjan, days later, raised his hand. Which is, in any case, a mere formality--and apparently one of a metaphorical nature not involving a real hand at all.

PS> I happen to like Godinho and think he is going to have a strong career, I don't even care he screwed up, since what the hell was going on with the entire team, veterans especially, in that 2nd half. Another basic principle of the game: veterans stand up and be the leaders on the pitch when things get tough.

Edited by Unnamed Trialist

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10 hours ago, Obinna said:

Borjan was, rightly or wrongly, already backing up. This was because the team (I am sure you have noticed) under John Herdman has been emphasized playing your way out of trouble. You may not like it, you may think we shouldn't play that style, but that is the reality of where this team is at. They have clearly been instructed to play this way ever since nations league began.

So that seals it.  the goal was Herdman's fault and he should be fired!

(Joke)

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13 hours ago, Obinna said:

Sure. I haven't forgotten. I am strictly analyzing this goal in isolation through.

My contention is not even that Borjan is blameless. I just disagree, very strongly, with those interpreting his back peddling those extra 6 yards as neglegence.

Certain posters insist on blaming him for that. Go ahead and blame him for the ball going into the net, but don't say he should have reacted quicker when he was already committed to back peddling.

By the time he recognized the pass was short, he had to make up 6 extra yards. Maybe it should have been 5 yards, or 4 yards, you guys decide - but it's not 0 yards. He was already backing up in anticipation of a strong pass (that didn't come). The brain can't instantaneously determine that pass was short. By the time he realized he had some ground to make up.

Does that make sense?

I disagree...I think like most sports soccer is reactionary and I believe the only time you've fully committed to a move is when you've left your feet such as a slide tackle or a dive by the keeper. Personally I don't care if Borjan plans to back up all the way into the players' tunnel, when the pass occurred he was extremely slow reacting to it. This one is totally on him. Honestly I don't even think the pass from Godinho was that bad. Had Borjan reacted promptly he would have had plenty of time and options to make a safe play. I say this as a goalie and huge fan of Milan's and am not too chuffed about the whole thing to be honest. Also as a goalie, Milan's reaction to chide Godinho was totally appropriate....my brother would have heard far worse from me(whether it was his fault or mine)😁

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, longlugan said:

I disagree...I think like most sports soccer is reactionary and I believe the only time you've fully committed to a move is when you've left your feet such as a slide tackle or a dive by the keeper. Personally I don't care if Borjan plans to back up all the way into the players' tunnel, when the pass occurred he was extremely slow reacting to it. This one is totally on him. Honestly I don't even think the pass from Godinho was that bad. Had Borjan reacted promptly he would have had plenty of time and options to make a safe play. I say this as a goalie and huge fan of Milan's and am not too chuffed about the whole thing to be honest. Also as a goalie, Milan's reaction to chide Godinho was totally appropriate....my brother would have heard far worse from me(whether it was his fault or mine)😁

This is completely different than what I meant by "commit". I never said he was fully committed. Going to ground, like Godinho did for the pk, is not the same thing at all, so why are you representing that as my argument?

I have run out of ways to say this, but here is one last attempt:

If you are moving backwards, expecting a pass to your feet, you don't know the pass will be short at the exact moment the pass is played (unless it is ridiculously short).

The ball travels for a second, maybe 2, before you're like "oh crap...this is NOT getting to me". 

In that brief moment of time, obviously Milan would have unfortunately ended up dropping back even further, right? Why? Because he was already engaged (aka committed) in moving backwards to receive a long pass. He's not going to stand still if he's still expecting a long pass, he's going to drop and make room, right?

Once he saw the pass was short though, he tried to readjust and reverse course, but it was too late.

I honestly don't get why this concept is hard for some of you to understand. I am sure you all have played soccer and been in this situation, when someone hits a long pass to you that comes up short. You judge the ball to be long and are backing up to receive the pass, but then midflight you realize it is short and you rush forward, right?

Fair enough if you think my point is unimportant, and fair enough if you think Borjan is in the wrong. At this point I am just trying to communicate this one basic concept: you can't automatically judge that pass to be short when you're in Borjan's shoes. Yes, on the TV you can tell it was going to be trouble, but ffs if you ever played the game you'd have some sympathy for Borjan here and realize he not getting there once he was setting up for a long pass.

Was Borjan wrong for expecting a long pass back? Debatable!

Should Borjan be expected to recover quicker considering the position he put himself in expecting a long pass? No. That's not debatable.

Edited by Obinna

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3 hours ago, Obinna said:

This is completely different than what I meant by "commit". I never said he was fully committed. Going to ground, like Godinho did for the pk, is not the same thing at all, so why are you representing that as my argument?

I have run out of ways to say this, but here is one last attempt:

If you are moving backwards, expecting a pass to your feet, you don't know the pass will be short at the exact moment the pass is played (unless it is ridiculously short).

The ball travels for a second, maybe 2, before you're like "oh crap...this is NOT getting to me". 

In that brief moment of time, obviously Milan would have unfortunately ended up dropping back even further, right? Why? Because he was already engaged (aka committed) in moving backwards to receive a long pass. He's not going to stand still if he's still expecting a long pass, he's going to drop and make room, right?

Once he saw the pass was short though, he tried to readjust and reverse course, but it was too late.

I honestly don't get why this concept is hard for some of you to understand. I am sure you all have played soccer and been in this situation, when someone hits a long pass to you that comes up short. You judge the ball to be long and are backing up to receive the pass, but then midflight you realize it is short and you rush forward, right?

Fair enough if you think my point is unimportant, and fair enough if you think Borjan is in the wrong. At this point I am just trying to communicate this one basic concept: you can't automatically judge that pass to be short when you're in Borjan's shoes. Yes, on the TV you can tell it was going to be trouble, but ffs if you ever played the game you'd have some sympathy for Borjan here and realize he not getting there once he was setting up for a long pass.

Was Borjan wrong for expecting a long pass back? Debatable!

Should Borjan be expected to recover quicker considering the position he put himself in expecting a long pass? No. That's not debatable.

I don't think I misrepresented what you said at all, especially since you used the term committed several times now.I do agree that he cannot be expected to react immediately or read Godhino's mind but as a keeper or even an outfielder you should be aware that the pass MIGHT be slow/short and react accordingly. His reaction need not be immediate but at the same time he had more than enough time to change direction and deal with the situation. He didn't...hence this goal falls mostly in his lap. You also use an example of a player judging a ball to go long and then having to step forward when they realize it's not travelling as far as they thought. That is called misjudging the flight of the ball and is only excusable in heavy wind situations...otherwise that particular player is to blame.I won't even bother getting into his half-hearted attempt to clear the ball when he did get to it...it was weak to say the least. Anyways...agree to disagree.

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Both should take some responsibility.  Godinho put Borjan in a bad position but I still expected him to bail Godinho & Canada out.  I would rather see him go through that ball than to try and be cute.

Anyone who's played a decent level of soccer knows the term "hospital pass".  After realizing that Godinho's pass was short, I would rather see Borjan go through the ball and potentially the player as well.

Hospital pass" is a term originally used in football codes to describe a pass that subjects the recipient to heavy contact, usually unavoidable, from an opposing player — the expression implying that the recipient of the pass could end up in the hospital.

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My feeling is that if you can put Babic and Milunovic in front of Borjan, with Gobelijic and Rodic as outside backs, the chances for a clean sheet are much higher. That, it seems to me, is the difference between making semis at the Gold Cup:

Gobeljić, Babić, Milunović, Rodić

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