Milan Borjan

[rightback]

10 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You can tell reading this thread that the majority of commentators do not watch clubs that regularly pass back to keepers. Those blaming Borjan simply have no experience watching how it is done properly. That is fine, but just admit you do not understand how you train it and execute it as a basic recourse. 

 

I think the majority of commentators in this thread know perfectly well that Godinho's execution of his back pass was poor. Borjan's reaction to his teammate's error was also poor in my opinion. Once he realized the pass was weak, he should have rushed out and put the ball into touch instead of trying some ridiculous deke. He had plenty of time to do so as evidenced by the fact he got there first after taking his sweet ass time getting around to it. To say so doesn't demonstrate an ignorance of how to properly pass a ball back to the keeper.

Edit. Just re-watched this freeze framing and I see what you're saying about how he had to recover from backpedaling, and, he arrived at the ball at exactly the same time as the striker so it probably wasn't an attempted deke. I think he could have done better but my judgement of him on this play isn't as harsh as it was. In real time, it seemed like he had an age to get to that ball.

Edited July 5, 2019 by rightback

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, king1010 said:

Just quoting this bold part for a laugh

must be true though. Unamed Traliist clearly has superior knowledge than the majority of posters here because he watches FC Barcelona weekly. 😋

I'll also be the first to admit I do not understand how to train a back pass and execute it as a basic recourse! I guess thats why I still see the blame falling 50/50 btw the 2 players!

Definitions of Ad hominem: 

1: appealing to feeling or prejudices rather than intellect.

2: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made.

Ex. Unamed Traliist clearly has superior knowledge than the majority of posters here because he watches FC Barcelona weekly. 😋

 

[Obinna]

41 minutes ago, rightback said:

Once he realized the pass was weak, he should have rushed out and put the ball into touch instead of trying some ridiculous deke. 

He did.

[hamiltonfan]

Watched the first goal again and again...Borjan should have done better and could have prevented the goal.

watch his movement from when the ball is touched back to him. Count his steps and the directions of his movement. 

Major laps in judgement, he should have recognized the weight (or lack of weight) on the pass and moved accordingly. He didn’t. Big time f ck up. 

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, hamiltonfan said:

Watched the first goal again and again...Borjan should have done better and could have prevented the goal.

watch his movement from when the ball is touched back to him. Count his steps and the directions of his movement. 

Major laps in judgement, he should have recognized the weight (or lack of weight) on the pass and moved accordingly. He didn’t. Big time f ck up. 

Put yourself in his situation. You are already moving backwards and the ball is passed backwards.

How long does it take you to realize the pass won't get to you? 1 second? 1.5 seconds?

How many steps backwards will you take in that time? 3? 4? 

I hope you are honest and don't respond by telling me you would instantly know the pass was short....that is impossible unless you are some sort of robot.

[hamiltonfan]

47 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Put yourself in his situation. You are already moving backwards and the ball is passed backwards.

How long does it take you to realize the pass won't get to you? 1 second? 1.5 seconds?

How many steps backwards will you take in that time? 3? 4? 

I hope you are honest and don't respond by telling me you would instantly know the pass was short....that is impossible unless you are some sort of robot.

You have to be able to recognize and react. He doesn’t...not only do he not react quick enough, he just flat out didn’t adjust his movement in reaction to weight of pass. 

Watch frame-by-frame, he doesn’t react to the situation (weight of pass) and continues to motion away from the ball. 

[Obinna]

7 minutes ago, hamiltonfan said:

You have to be able to recognize and react. He doesn’t...not only do he not react quick enough, he just flat out didn’t adjust his movement in reaction to weight of pass. 

You ignored my question.

If your contention is that he reacted too slow, what was a reasonable time for him to start reacting to the short back pass? 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Obinna

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, hamiltonfan said:

Watch frame-by-frame, he doesn’t react to the situation (weight of pass) and continues to motion away from the ball. 

Because he had not yet determined the pass was going to be short. That is why I ask you, how long does it take a player to realize the pass is going to be short?

Do you see my point here or do you just disagree with it?

Edited July 5, 2019 by Obinna

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

Definitions of Ad hominem: 

1: appealing to feeling or prejudices rather than intellect.

2: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made.

Ex. Unamed Traliist clearly has superior knowledge than the majority of posters here because he watches FC Barcelona weekly. 😋

No, you are making a mistaken argument, basically because you read what ad hominem means somewhere, and then voilà, you get to use it. But you are using it wrongly. 

The argument is simple, not ad hominem, and most people understand it: if you see something done consistently as habitual practice, you have a standard by which to judge it. That goes for what a good cocktail is supposed to be like, what topiary is like when done well, what a good driver really is, what it means to properly repair a cane-backed chair. There is a difference between having seen it, appreciating and learning what excellence is, and being able to judge,and not. 

 If that habitual practice is done well over time, you have a higher standard on which to judge it. Canada playing back to the keeper and then out on the carpet, that causes  fans to cringe when they see it. Then fans make up arguments when it does not work about how it is supposed to happen, without having seen consistently how it is done when practiced at a high level. 

I have, which is why I say: on a team that holds back passing ot the keeper at a high standard, the fault is massively Godinho's on that play; only minority opinion, which we always will have, blames the keeper at all. 

How do I know this? I watch, in the stadium, the team that has most consistently over the past 30 years used the keeper as an outfield player, and makes most demands of a keeper in terms of distribution, probably in world football. It was the case with Valdes before, and Ter Stegen now. Where I sit, watching that standard, I have an opinion, but also speak to the vast majority opinion of the fans and journalists and analysts watching that team that back passes on a high level. It also happens to the be the team with the most possession in world club football over the past three decades (regardless of results).

In fact, there are things that Barça did under Cruyff that no team in the world did, and now are habitual practice even in lower tier; there are Guardiola tactics as well that were exception and have been assimilated ten years later, even at lower tiers (outside backs up high into midfield and resultant shifts, for example). Back passing: are you speaking about a technique you have seen done at a high level consistently, or not? Or are you talking crap about something you do not have any proper standard about, but just don't have the balls to admit it?

Now next time you tell me that a 3-5-2 was done wrong and the outside middle players moved mistakenly, I won't start chirping about this or that, because I have never seen that alignment consistently, ever, never mind seeing it done with great effectiveness. I just don't know, I haven't a clue. 

Pila est in atrium. 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Unnamed Trialist

[Obinna]

30 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

No, you are making a mistaken argument, basically because you read what ad hominem means somewhere, and then voilà, you get to use it. But you are using it wrongly. 

The argument is simple, not ad hominem, and most people understand it: if you see something done consistently as habitual practice, you have a standard by which to judge it. That goes for what a good cocktail is supposed to be like, what topiary is like when done well, what a good driver really is, what it means to properly repair a cane-backed chair. There is a difference between having seen it, appreciating and learning what excellence is, and being able to judge,and not. 

 If that habitual practice is done well over time, you have a higher standard on which to judge it. Canada playing back to the keeper and then out on the carpet, that causes  fans to cringe when they see it. Then fans make up arguments when it does not work about how it is supposed to happen, without having seen consistently how it is done when practiced at a high level. 

I have, which is why I say: on a team that holds back passing ot the keeper at a high standard, the fault is massively Godinho's on that play; only minority opinion, which we always will have, blames the keeper at all. 

How do I know this? I watch, in the stadium, the team that has most consistently over the past 30 years used the keeper as an outfield player, and makes most demands of a keeper in terms of distribution, probably in world football. It was the case with Valdes before, and Ter Stegen now. Where I sit, watching that standard, I have an opinion, but also speak to the vast majority opinion of the fans and journalists and analysts watching that team that back passes on a high level. It also happens to the be the team with the most possession in world club football over the past three decades (regardless of results).

In fact, there are things that Barça did under Cruyff that no team in the world did, and now are habitual practice even in lower tier; there are Guardiola tactics as well that were exception and have been assimilated ten years later, even at lower tiers (outside backs up high into midfield and resultant shifts, for example). Back passing: are you speaking about a technique you have seen done at a high level consistently, or not? Or are you talking crap about something you do not have any proper standard about, but just don't have the balls to admit it?

 

He was saying that with sarcasm and was insinuating you are a know-it-all. When he said that, he did not address your point (which was correct imo), he was just making fun of you. When you go after the person and not the argument, that is an ad-homenim. 

We're on the same side of this debate.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Obinna

[king1010]

caught red handed.

Unamed Trialist, I do appreciate your thorough explanation and passion for the board. I understand your point of view, though mine differs slightly on apportioning blame. 

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, king1010 said:

caught red handed.

Unamed Trialist, I do appreciate your thorough explanation and passion for the board. I understand your point of view, though mine differs slightly on apportioning blame. 

Well, big respect for coming clean. I am with @Unnamed Trialist on this one, but his reputation does precede him, so I don't hold it against you haha

[SpursFlu]

For what it's worth... cmnt goalkeeper coach Paul Dolan was just on the radio and said Milan took ownership of the goal and apologized to the team. Have a listen...

https://post.futurimedia.com/ckstam/playlist/10/listen-18405.html?cb=1562351394.101752

 

I guess that settles that

Edited July 5, 2019 by SpursFlu

[rightback]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

How long does it take you to realize the pass won't get to you? 1 second? 1.5 seconds?

How many steps backwards will you take in that time? 3? 4? 

Looks like it took him closer to 2 seconds 😄. Is that world class or would ter Stegan react faster? We need empirical data here folks! 

[rightback]

4 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

For what it's worth... cmnt goalkeeper coach Paul Dolan was just on the radio and said Milan took ownership of the goal and apologized to the team. Have a listen...

https://post.futurimedia.com/ckstam/playlist/10/listen-18405.html?cb=1562351394.101752

 

I guess that settles that

Hurrah!

[Obinna]

7 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

For what it's worth... cmnt goalkeeper coach Paul Dolan was just on the radio and said Milan took ownership of the goal and apologized to the team. Have a listen...

https://post.futurimedia.com/ckstam/playlist/10/listen-18405.html?cb=1562351394.101752

 

I guess that settles that

Listening to it now. He is just saying Borjan held up his hand after the goal. We knew that already. No new information offered here.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Obinna

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, rightback said:

Hurrah!

Hahhaha go listen before you celebrate

Edited July 5, 2019 by Obinna

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, rightback said:

Looks like it took him closer to 2 seconds 😄. Is that world class or would ter Stegan react faster? We need empirical data here folks! 

Hey! If you can't counter the point, you can always re-direct the debate in another direction.

And how dare Borjan not be Ter Stegan!! 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Obinna

[SpursFlu]

He actually said he apologized to the team. Wow no wonder the world is in trouble when people can selectively misconstrued comments like that

 

Guys.. try being wrong once in a while. It's actually very liberating and makes being right in the future a whole lot smoother

Edited July 5, 2019 by SpursFlu

[rightback]

18 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

He actually said he apologized to the team. Wow no wonder the world is in trouble when people can selectively misconstrued comments like that

 

Guys.. try being wrong once in a while. It's actually very liberating and makes being right in the future a whole lot smoother

I'm strongly starting to suspect that Obinna and Unnamed Trialist were/are goalkeepers. 

 

[Obinna]

48 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

He actually said he apologized to the team. Wow no wonder the world is in trouble when people can selectively misconstrued comments

 

Guys.. try being wrong once in a while. It's actually very liberating 

At 16:59 of that clip.

"He puts his hand out and apologizes to the group there, and wants to take accountability for what happenes..." - Paul Dolan

I took that as literal in game acknowledgement that he shares some responsibility by raising his hand to the team. Paul was talking in the context of the game.

I didn't take that as figuratively holding his hand up, as if to appologize to the group post-match. I didn't get the sense from Paul that Borjan made an appology to the team afterward the game, though he certainly could have. 

That said, I re-watched that moment in the game just now and didn't see Borjan hold his hand up, so I may be completely wrong with that, but most likely Paul was saying that Borjan figuratively held his hand up and took responsibility through his actions in the game thereafter. He also says the team rallied behind him after the mistaken. Again, in the context of their behavior on the pitch after concedind. But I don't know for sure. That's just my take on the Paul interview.

You can accuse me of misconstruing him, but I am honestly just giving my interpretation. If you want to blame me for that, not much I can do.

Is Borjan on record taking responsibility? Does anyone know?

And if so, that is actually a good thing. That is what a good teammate does. Especially when you a keeper, anytime there is a goal scored, you are ultimatly responsible. I actually hope he owned up to it and took responsibility.

None of that is enough to change my opinion on the play. Strictly from an analysis perspective, Godinho is still primarily to blame and Borjan is to blame in the broader sense that a keepers main job is not to let the ball in the net.

But thanks for sharing that clip, much appreciated!

Edited July 5, 2019 by Obinna

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, rightback said:

I'm strongly starting to suspect that Obinna and Unnamed Trialist were/are goalkeepers. 

 

I have mostly played fullback, which is probably why I am harsh on Godinho and sympathetic to Borjan. I would never blame Bojan for not getting to that shit pass and I am sure Godinho doesn't blame him either!

[Bertuzzi44]

Don't forget Milan has messed up in situations like this before. The goal against versus French Guiana sticks out. He kind of loses the benefit of the doubt due to his history.

[SpursFlu]

47 minutes ago, Obinna said:

At 16:59 of that clip.

"He puts his hand out and apologizes to the group there, and wants to take accountability for what happenes..." - Paul Dolan

I took that as literal in game acknowledgement that he shares some responsibility by raising his hand to the team. Paul was talking in the context of the game.

I didn't take that as figuratively holding his hand up, as if to appologize to the group post-match. I didn't get the sense from Paul that Borjan made an appology to the team afterward the game, though he certainly could have. 

That said, I re-watched that moment in the game just now and didn't see Borjan hold his hand up, so I may be completely wrong with that, but most likely Paul was saying that Borjan figuratively held his hand up and took responsibility through his actions in the game thereafter. He also says the team rallied behind him after the mistaken. Again, in the context of their behavior on the pitch after concedind. But I don't know for sure. That's just my take on the Paul interview.

You can accuse me of misconstruing him, but I am honestly just giving my interpretation. If you want to blame me for that, not much I can do.

Is Borjan on record taking responsibility? Does anyone know?

And if so, that is actually a good thing. That is what a good teammate does. Especially when you a keeper, anytime there is a goal scored, you are ultimatly responsible. I actually hope he owned up to it and took responsibility.

None of that is enough to change my opinion on the play. Strictly from an analysis perspective, Godinho is still primarily to blame and Borjan is to blame in the broader sense that a keepers main job is not to let the ball in the net.

But thanks for sharing that clip, much appreciated!

You also have to consider he wasn't asked about Milan, he wasn't asked about the goal. He said the tournament came down to individual mistakes and voluntarily starts to talk about Milan and the goal. In a very diplomatic way because lets be honest Milan is great and we all think he's a huge asset. He's not Stephen A Smith or Skip Bayless talking oug his ass. Hes not going to outrageously call out Milan. Hes part of the coaching staff. Also must be noted he mentions no other player

 

I also want to challenge this notion that 1 mistake or a misplay defines a player or a players performance in a game. Everyone makes mistakes it happens. It doesnt define someone

Edited July 5, 2019 by SpursFlu

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

You also have to consider he wasn't asked about Milan, he wasn't asked about the goal. He said the tournament came down to individual mistakes and voluntarily starts to talk about Milan and the goal. In a very diplomatic way because lets be honest Milan is great and we all think he's a huge asset. He's not Stephen A Smith or Skip Bayless talking oug his ass. Hes not going to outrageously call out Milan. Hes part of the coaching staff. Also must be noted he mentions no other player

 

I also want to challenge this notion that 1 mistake or a misplay defines a player or a players performance in a game. Everyone makes mistakes it happens. It doesnt define someone

He probably brought up Borjan because it was clearly the most controversial play of the tournament for Canada. Also, isn't he a goal keeper coach?

Either way, as far as I can tell, he is not saying Milan issued an apology, admitting the goal was on him. Sorry @rightback 

Agree that 1 mistake defines a player, whether it is Borjan or Godinho, though Marcus made 2 mistakes in the same match. 

Like I have said before, I believe in Godinho long-term. He'll think twice next time he wildly goes for a tackle in the box. Look at Henry, he picks his moments to go into the tackle much better now. Just comes with maturity.

I don't think Godinho even attempts that tackle if he didn't make the bad back pass. He was trying to make amends I think.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Obinna