Ballou Tabla

[Gian-Luca]

1 hour ago, N1ckbr0wn said:

In regards to the constant yelling at Ballou mentioned a couple pages back, seems to be in his nature of coaching..

 

Ugh. I found his comments towards Shome to be particularly demeaning and condescending. The sorts of comments (which make Shome out to be a completely talentless and clueless dolt, which I'm sure he isn't) wouldn't have inspire me as a player, they would just make me bitter.

[Bison44]

I wish someone was on the bench screaming at Henry..."you picked the wrong lineup...the formation is all wrong...read your f#ckin mls rule book and learn how to make substitutions..".  I guess that sort of style works for some people......

[El Diego]

 

3 hours ago, SF said:

This has no place in youth soccer (or any sport).  For the large majority of kids, who are emotionally developing at this age, this will only alienate them from the sport.  This is an empirically documented fact.

Unreal.

Eh, the kid knew why I subbed him off. We talked about it and he played better. Everyone spent time and money to play on a competitive team and his behaviour was not fair to anyone. He blatantly disregarded his team in a selfish manner and I felt I needed to correct it. There were no hard feelings. It's not like I did this regularly (or even more than once), partially because it was extreme but also because his behaviour was extreme.

 

Anyway, you and I probably agree more on youth coaching than you think. My anecdote was meant to explain that extreme actions can be correct in unique situations, not that that is how coaches should act generally.

[Obinna]

3 hours ago, Colliedor said:

Tell me about it. I remember my team was losing 7-0. My team could barely string 2 passes.

I barely played in that match. Everytime he subbed me in, I was off in about 2-3 mins. I wasn't even on the field for any of the goals conceded. Was given no time at all just to get into the rhythm of things. It was insulting and extremely embarrassing. The last time I was subbed, I said enough and just went home. Completely shattered my confidence and made me question if I should bother showing up to future matches.

With all due respect this sounds like it happened at a very low level/recreational level of soccer. Was that the case? At that level of play, such a thing is totally uncalled for. You are there to have fun and not be disrespected. I see why you were upset and went home.

At a more competitive level, you are given instructions and if you do not execute them you are sent off, plain and simple. It doesn't matter if you started the game from the bench or not.

It happened to a guy on my provincial team one year. The player never had a bad attitude or anything, but he was completely ineffectual/not doing what he was told and was pulled off after subbing on. There were no hard feelings. This was at the U-17 level by the way.

It's been a while since I played youth soccer, but I doubt much has changed.

. @SF you may say the harm this causes at the youth level is documented fact, but Tabla is not playing youth soccer. He is playing professional soccer. MLS is not a youth league and Henry is not a youth coach. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Obinna

[Gian-Luca]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

I wish someone was on the bench screaming at Henry..."you picked the wrong lineup...the formation is all wrong...read your f#ckin mls rule book and learn how to make substitutions..".  I guess that sort of style works for some people......

Not quite condescending enough. It needs to be someone asking him “Hey, Thierry - are you capable of using all of your subs?”

”Yes” replies Henry

”Then why don’t you? That’s football!”

[Bertuzzi44]

I dunno, I didn't think that clip of Henry yelling was so bad. Probably other managers are similar.

[The Real Marc]

Playing gifts don’t necessarily translate to coaching prowess.

The screaming is likely the only managerial tool Henry has - a mixture of aggression, humiliation, and leveraging his former stature as a player.

Just because it’s a pro environment doesn’t mean it’s particularly effective or called for.

Strikes me as more about demeaning players to absolve Henry of responsibility for the team’s failures by highlighting their weaknesses rather than his own. Weak stuff and not good for anyone’s long-term development, player or club.

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by The Real Marc

[El Hombre]

To me it was the same as any gifted player-turned-manager.  When they played everything came naturally to them so they don't understand why some things aren't natural to others.  Its hard to do in-game, but there's no "teaching" there.

[MtlMario]

Vancouver maybe?

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, El Hombre said:

To me it was the same as any gifted player-turned-manager.  When they played everything came naturally to them so they don't understand why some things aren't natural to others.  Its hard to do in-game, but there's no "teaching" there.

Good point. This may apply to a guy like Shome or Piette, but not to Tabla, who is the subject of this thread.

[Gian-Luca]

2 hours ago, El Hombre said:

To me it was the same as any gifted player-turned-manager.  When they played everything came naturally to them so they don't understand why some things aren't natural to others.  Its hard to do in-game, but there's no "teaching" there.

I think it was Brad Smith (the one who played for the Leafs, not the git who plays for Seattle) who said there are essentially three types of coaches - a teacher, a motivator and a strategist. He reckoned that John Brophy was none of these three. I am getting the same impression about Henry.

[dyslexic nam]

47 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

Vancouver maybe?

I would rather see him go to CPL and lock down a starting role and get a lot of playing time.  I am not sure he gets that sort of playing time for the Caps.  
 

Watching the Island Games this summer made me appreciate the level of play even more than before. Players are on top of you in a split second when you get the ball and they press you aggressively.  It may not be MLS, but somewhere on here (the threads sometimes blur together) someone was claiming that it is a big step down and not a good alternative for MLS fringe players to go to CPL.  After watching a lot of games really closely, I very much disagree.   Fringe MLS guys (Bekker, Telfer, DeJong, etc) are no so far above the other players that they show the disparity.  There is a lot of talent in CPL at both ends of the pitch and I think it would be a great spot for a guy like Tabla to get back on track.  

Edited October 28, 2020 by dyslexic nam

[VinceA]

9 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I would rather see him go to CPL and lock down a starting role and get a lot of playing time.  I am not sure he gets that sort of playing time for the Caps.  
 

Watching the Island Games this summer made me appreciate the level of play even more than before. Players are on top of you in a split second when you get the ball and they press you aggressively.  It may not be MLS, but somewhere on here (the threads sometimes blur together) someone was claiming that it is a big step down and not a good alternative for MLS fringe players to go to CPL.  After watching a lot of games really closely, I very much disagree.   Fringe MLS guys (Bekker, Telfer, DeJong, etc) are no so far above the other players that they show the disparity.  There is a lot of talent in CPL at both ends of the pitch and I think it would be a great spot for a guy like Tabla to get back on track.  

If he still has his attitude he's not gonna take the likely 30-40k paycut he'd need to. He's on like 70k USD right now. And right now he's not gonna get the 60k CAD Bustos money.

[dyslexic nam]

10 minutes ago, VinceA said:

If he still has his attitude he's not gonna take the likely 30-40k paycut he'd need to. He's on like 70k USD right now. And right now he's not gonna get the 60k CAD Bustos money.

If he went at the start of the next CPL season, he would still be under contract with the Impact so I don’t think a pay cut would be needed.   They would have to figure it out with the loan team but I don’t think there would be a financial hit - and it is in everyone’s best interest that he get back on track.   The Impact have an option for another 2 years so he needs to start showing his worth over the next year.  

Edited October 28, 2020 by dyslexic nam

[Ruud]

Jackson-Hamel is another who needs some CPL to find his game.  No point is sticking around with Impact while not making an...ahem...impact

If CPL expands under COVID that would be shocking, but a team in Laval next season would be ideal. 

 

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Gian-Luca said:

I think it was Brad Smith (the one who played for the Leafs, not the git who plays for Seattle) who said there are essentially three types of coaches - a teacher, a motivator and a strategist. He reckoned that John Brophy was none of these three. I am getting the same impression about Henry.

Perhaps he falls into this category. On the broadcast they were saying how he's helped Piette to play forward more often. That is teaching to me. 

Being a motivator is probably he's weakest trait of the 3, which is why he can't seem to get through to Ballou, yet.

[Unnamed Trialist]

18 hours ago, Obinna said:

If you had a magic wand you could give Tabla the personality of David or Davies, but bearing that I think a sports psychologist could help. Maybe.

I am still not convinced though. I think David is more in need of such a thing than Tabla. Why? Because David just needs to re-discover that quality which allows him to finish the final action. Everything else is good, such as his work rate, his off the ball movement. He is getting chances, so he just needs to finish them.

Tabla does not have that issue. For Tabla, his issue seems to be attitude and/or following instruction. A sports psychologist would not fix that, would they? Seems to be a matter of personality more than anything. 

What I don't get about this insistence on him following instructions, is that his main defect as a player is not insistently taking on these last defenders with his quality dribble. So for me, that has to be the instruction, to go, go go, to hammer away. And to not be deterred when he fails, as even Messi fails most of the time. It is about being judicious about when to take that guy on. And then of course track back if you lose it. 

Tabla is not going to be a midfield contention player, don't think. He's going to be the guy that breaks down a defender a few times a game and gives you a scoring chance. 

Worrying about whether he can follow instructions, in my view, could be off track. Oh good, Ballou, you spent a game tracking an outside back who was hardly involved in the attacking play thanks to your diligence in following instructions. Is that what folks are advocating?

[Unnamed Trialist]

11 hours ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

I dunno, I didn't think that clip of Henry yelling was so bad. Probably other managers are similar.

Considering it is edited, it is not that bad.

What I don't accept is if a coach runs a bunch of drills and scrimmages in practice, four or 5 days straight, and then gets to a game and starts shouting his head off. I feel you should do the shouting, or your assistants, in training. Push and instruct and make everything clear as day. This also means individual work. 

I've seen lower tier coaches do this a lot, and youth coaches, the match starts and they go nuts. Because they did not do their job during the week. 

And then in a match, they execute, and you adjust positional play, mostly, or call their attention to details. Most of the great coaches do this, they do not go beserk even if the team is failing miserably, because they understand what can be solved in a match and what has to be dealt with fundamentally in practice. The great coaches watch their teams get clubbed, on a bad day, and store it all up for the next set of training sessions.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Unnamed Trialist

[Obinna]

10 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

What I don't get about this insistence on him following instructions, is that his main defect as a player is not insistently taking on these last defenders with his quality dribble. So for me, that has to be the instruction, to go, go go, to hammer away. And to not be deterred when he fails, as even Messi fails most of the time. It is about being judicious about when to take that guy on. And then of course track back if you lose it. 

Tabla is not going to be a midfield contention player, don't think. He's going to be the guy that breaks down a defender a few times a game and gives you a scoring chance. 

Worrying about whether he can follow instructions, in my view, could be off track. Oh good, Ballou, you spent a game tracking an outside back who was hardly involved in the attacking play thanks to your diligence in following instructions. Is that what folks are advocating?

I don't think it is that complicated. The instruction to Tabla is probably to work harder without the ball. That is my assumption, but who knows. 

Edit: It could also be positionally, just speculating. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Obinna

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

I don't think it is that complicated. The instruction to Tabla is probably to work harder without the ball. That is my assumption, but who knows. 

I watched Henry play a few seasons at Barça. He was already a legend, in attack he was effective. He was fairly disciplined as well and respected the pecking order (Messi, a couple of great mids in Xavi and Iniesta, then everyone else). But he was not exactly exemplary without the ball, he was only okay. Maybe this is not fair, being a senior player who transferred in search of a European trophy and with a huge prestige behind him, he perhaps was not required to work that hard defensively. Maybe those who followed him at Arsenal would know more about that player.

[Obinna]

Just now, Unnamed Trialist said:

I watched Henry play a few seasons at Barça. He was already a legend, in attack he was effective. He was fairly disciplined as well and respected the pecking order (Messi, a couple of great mids in Xavi and Iniesta, then everyone else). But he was not exactly exemplary without the ball, he was only okay. Maybe this is not fair, being a senior player who transferred in search of a European trophy and with a huge prestige behind him, he perhaps was not required to work that hard defensively. Maybe those who followed him at Arsenal would know more about that player.

Being "okay" off the ball may not be good enough for Henry the coach, even if that was okay for Henry the Barcelona player. 

[El Diego]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Considering it is edited, it is not that bad.

What I don't accept is if a coach runs a bunch of drills and scrimmages in practice, four or 5 days straight, and then gets to a game and starts shouting his head off. I feel you should do the shouting, or your assistants, in training. Push and instruct and make everything clear as day. This also means individual work. 

I've seen lower tier coaches do this a lot, and youth coaches, the match starts and they go nuts. Because they did not do their job during the week. 

And then in a match, they execute, and you adjust positional play, mostly, or call their attention to details. Most of the great coaches do this, they do not go beserk even if the team is failing miserably, because they understand what can be solved in a match and what has to be dealt with fundamentally in practice. The great coaches watch their teams get clubbed, on a bad day, and store it all up for the next set of training sessions.

Really good post. I compare it to writing a test or exam. If you studied well, then writing the test is the easy part as you are simply writing down all the thoughts you stored from studying once you recognize what the question is asking. If you are trying to learn during the test, then you are in big trouble.

[SpursFlu]

yah I don't think you should be coaching technique in the middle of the game. It just sounds like your verbalizing your frustration and letting the world know you could do better. Its kinda amateurish, and none helpful. Should be more about awareness, motivation and tactics 

Edited October 28, 2020 by SpursFlu

[LeoH037]

20 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Ugh. I found his comments towards Shome to be particularly demeaning and condescending. The sorts of comments (which make Shome out to be a completely talentless and clueless dolt, which I'm sure he isn't) wouldn't have inspire me as a player, they would just make me bitter.

Fair constructive criticism. Maybe in practice Henry sees Shome do things consistently at a higher level than he does during the game (which we don't) , and as such knows Shome is capable of better and is reminding him during the heat of a game. Shome is an adult and a professional player so I'm sure he knows to take it in context and not personally.

[Gian-Luca]

44 minutes ago, LeoH037 said:

Fair constructive criticism. Maybe in practice Henry sees Shome do things consistently at a higher level than he does during the game (which we don't) , and as such knows Shome is capable of better and is reminding him during the heat of a game. Shome is an adult and a professional player so I'm sure he knows to take it in context and not personally.

I suspect whether Shome takes it personally may be dependent on whether Henry makes the same demeaning and condescending comments to other players. If he's heard shouting "Hey Wanyama - are you capable of running fast? Then why don't you?" or "Maxi, trying taking a shot on target. That's football!" then he'll know that Henry is just an all-round complete and total jackass of a coach. If he's only spouting that kind of nonsense to Shome then he should take it personally since it would be personally directed at him and no others. That's how that (admittedly, edited) compilation of clips came across as only Shome got the demeaning & condescending comments.

Either way, it's tough to see how these comments were "constructive criticism". As you say, Shome, while young, is a professional player. He's played nearly 50 games now for the Impact and has been capped a couple of times for his country, so he probably doesn't need to be told what football is (which is condescending), or asked if it's physically possible for him to play the ball first time (which is demeaning).

Keep in mind that I originally defended Henry for shouting at Ballou with the "what are you on the field for" since he wasn't doing the specific task that Henry put him on the field for. That's not really different from a lot of frustrated comments we've heard from managers over the years, from Holger's famous "Keep the fucking ball!!!" in Azteca back in 2000 to Vanney's list of exasperated comments in one of the MLS is back games that I posted in the TFC thread. The comments to Shome are in a different category to my mind, for the reasons stated above.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Gian-Luca