Ballou Tabla

[Complete Homer]

14 minutes ago, SCF08 said:

Why?

Because you are ignoring every objective measure of a player's level at our disposal (calling them non-arguments!) and asking us to put 100% faith in your subjective interpretation of skill demonstrated against weak competition that is the same age as him. All you have is your eyeball test. Lots of us watched those same youth tournaments. He looked great, but he looked great against youth. He isn't even particularly tearing up USL. Unless you are a professional coach that would have a better "eyeball test" than us, your argument doesn't boil down to much.

Should we cap tie him? Yeah, just like I and several people have said, bringing a limited number of high potential guys to tie at the Gold Cup would be smart (assuming Tabla even says yes, I am not about to whine about the CSA if he isn't on the roster because we may very well find out that he said no). But to have any confidence that he is already better than Ricketts is absurd. Maybe he is, and when Findley calls him he sees this astounding 17 year old dominating against adults. But there has not been sufficient evidence of that, and I am suspicious that your evaluation of Ricketts vs Tabla is as coloured by an underselling of Ricketts as much as an overselling of Tabla

[SCF08]

39 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Because you are ignoring every objective measure of a player's level at our disposal (calling them non-arguments!) and asking us to put 100% faith in your subjective interpretation of skill demonstrated against weak competition that is the same age as him. All you have is your eyeball test. Lots of us watched those same youth tournaments. He looked great, but he looked great against youth. He isn't even particularly tearing up USL. Unless you are a professional coach that would have a better "eyeball test" than us, your argument doesn't boil down to much.

Should we cap tie him? Yeah, just like I and several people have said, bringing a limited number of high potential guys to tie at the Gold Cup would be smart (assuming Tabla even says yes, I am not about to whine about the CSA if he isn't on the roster because we may very well find out that he said no). But to have any confidence that he is already better than Ricketts is absurd. Maybe he is, and when Findley calls him he sees this astounding 17 year old dominating against adults. But there has not been sufficient evidence of that, and I am suspicious that your evaluation of Ricketts vs Tabla is as coloured by an underselling of Ricketts as much as an overselling of Tabla

How many USL matches have you watched? How many Youth Tournaments and other International Youth matches have you watched? Why is he not tearing up the USL in your eyes?

I don't find comparing stats between a 29 year old and 17 year old objective. I don't find talking about stats when you're talking about a players quality objective in any sort of way. 

I haven't seen a single footballing argument which explains why Ricketts is a better player than Tabla. I've just seen nonsense comparing a 29 year olds record vs a 17 year old. 

Tabla is a superior player in almost all footballing aspects compared to Ricketts.

[kohanz]

On September 20, 2016 at 0:39 PM, JDub said:

Are you saying you would take a young, inexperienced team to the Gold Cup? 

Not across the entire squad, but I would prefer to take between 2 and 4 of our most talented young prospects, along with the vets.

[Obinna]

I find this Tabla vs Ricketts argument both interesting and entertaining! First of all, I am amazed to see people actually defending Ricketts here, as he was the chosen whipping boy until his MLS move. Secondly, I get that Tabla is more talented, but I think the question should be "who is more effective"? To that end, I think it's clear that would be Tos (for now).

Edited September 21, 2016 by Obinna

[RS]

5 hours ago, SCF08 said:

Why?

Because, as Complete Homer explained, you're telling us to ignore all the factors that make Ricketts better right now and instead to rely on "football quality."

I'll spell it out for you. Tosaint Ricketts at 29 is better than Ballou Tabla at 17. This is true in every measurable metric (the things that you're telling everyone to ignore). 

That doesn't mean that Ricketts at 17 was better than Tabla at 17 (quite the opposite), or that Tabla at 29 won't eventually (hopefully) be better than Ricketts at 29. But, at this very moment, Ricketts is objectively the better player.

Until Tabla proves otherwise, that is the case. He hasn't done so yet.

[SCF08]

3 hours ago, RS said:

Because, as Complete Homer explained, you're telling us to ignore all the factors that make Ricketts better right now and instead to rely on "football quality."

I'll spell it out for you. Tosaint Ricketts at 29 is better than Ballou Tabla at 17. This is true in every measurable metric (the things that you're telling everyone to ignore). 

That doesn't mean that Ricketts at 17 was better than Tabla at 17 (quite the opposite), or that Tabla at 29 won't eventually (hopefully) be better than Ricketts at 29. But, at this very moment, Ricketts is objectively the better player.

Until Tabla proves otherwise, that is the case. He hasn't done so yet.

The metrics are false though. Metrics cannot be compared between a 29 year old and 17 year old. If you would do that 99,99% of the time the metrics would say that the 29 year old is better than the 17 year old.

You should always look at football quality. Those are the metrics that matter on the pitch. Who's going to get that first touch right or who's dribbling ability will create space for other or will create a good chance for the player himself. Who's going to spot teammates early and can execute a good through ball or who can operate well in tight spaces under pressure.

I'm pretty sure the answer is not Ricketts to all these and many other questions. Those are the things that matter.

But...I'm not going to be a bad sport and try to explain the uselessness of Ricketts in your metrics as well.

Tosaint Ricketts goals:
2 vs Dominica (3-0 + 4-0) - WCQ
2 vs Belize (1-0 + 2-0) - WCQ
2 vs Puerto Rico (0-1 + 0-3) - 1x Friendly, 1x WCQ
1 vs Cuba (1-0) - WCQ
1 vs St Kitts (4-0) - WCQ
1 vs Moldova (1-1) - Friendly
1 vs Jamaica (3-1) - Friendly
1 vs T&T (1-0) - Friendly
1 vs Ecuador (2-2) - Friendly

Hardly impressive is it? He only scores goals against weak opposition. He has never really scored an important goal in an important match against serious opposition. 

If you wish to disregard footballing ability and qualities and pick these sort of "relevant metrics" while also disregarding the 12 year age gap than it's your good right but I don't take a few goals against Belize, Puerto Rico and Dominica very seriously.

And by the way....in all the records I could only find 1 (yes 1) assist in his entire International history and that was in the last match against El Salvador. 

[maccaliam]

3 minutes ago, SCF08 said:

And by the way....in all the records I could only find 1 (yes 1) assist in his entire International history and that was in the last match against El Salvador. 

So you're saying Ricketts is improving and becoming a playmaker?

[SCF08]

Just now, maccaliam said:

So you're saying Ricketts is improving and becoming a playmaker?

He's the new Canadian Ozil!

[1Knight]

23 hours ago, Kent said:

Like I said before, I don't have strong feelings in the cap or don't cap Tabla debate, but I just want to point out that we have only won one game in the Gold Cup in the last three tournaments combined, and it was a nail biter 1-0 win against Guadeloupe, which I think you couldn't even cap tie a player in since Guadeloupe isn't a FIFA member. 2009 is the last time we won a game in the Gold Cup against a FIFA member. 2007 was the last time we had a win by more than 1 goal. Of course it is possible to cap tie a player, in particular an offensive player with a 1 goal lead.

For me this is a good argument for getting Tabla cap-tied - we simply haven't won or achieved the success we would like to with the current crop of players. I don't think it's necessarily time to throw everyone, including Ricketts, away but he will be in his 30's next qualifying cycle which is something to consider. I would prefer us to take a look at young players who could make an impact in years to come and get their feet wet within the national team fold. Tabla probably isn't better than Ricketts at this point in time but what are we really gaining from trotting out Ricketts for friendlies - we know what he can and cannot do he's got over 50 caps across two WCQ cycles, bring in some new blood.

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, SCF08 said:

You should always look at football quality. Those are the metrics that matter on the pitch. Who's going to get that first touch right or who's dribbling ability will create space for other or will create a good chance for the player himself. Who's going to spot teammates early and can execute a good through ball or who can operate well in tight spaces under pressure.

 

I get what you're saying here, but what about other important metrics which you don't consider, such as Speed?

It's technically a "football quality".

Here is another one: experience.

If the sum total of Tabla's game was better than Rickett's, he'd be playing and scoring at a higher level, regardless of his age.

He isn't, yet.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, SCF08 said:

How many USL matches have you watched? How many Youth Tournaments and other International Youth matches have you watched? Why is he not tearing up the USL in your eyes?

I don't find comparing stats between a 29 year old and 17 year old objective. I don't find talking about stats when you're talking about a players quality objective in any sort of way. 

I haven't seen a single footballing argument which explains why Ricketts is a better player than Tabla. I've just seen nonsense comparing a 29 year olds record vs a 17 year old. 

Tabla is a superior player in almost all footballing aspects compared to Ricketts.

You do realize you are the only one on this board that has the same "eyeball" for talent as you right? You are obviously in the wrong here, denying facts, and you want us to believe he is better than Ricketts because you watched him play in the USL (you are not the only one). You are acting like a certain man from vancouver

[JDub]

21 hours ago, farrelld said:

You don't have to fill up the entire 23 man roster or however many spots with young players. If you bring 5-7 young guys along, maybe 3-5 that need to be cap tied, that would be perfectly acceptable to me.

Considering a couple guys that typically are in the starting 11 are young I wouldn't see those numbers as unreasonable.  I think we still need to bring the best squad possible.  The more games together the better they get.  Working in a few younger guys and cap tying them is fine but I don't think you just basically concede the gold cup by sending a very young inexperienced team.  Our team needs to get some results to build confidence.  As we start to get competitive these kids won't see us as a second option but their first option.  Saying that, calling in a couple kids not currently cap tied for the experience and if score lines permits getting them in the game is all right with me.

[SCF08]

13 hours ago, Obinna said:

I get what you're saying here, but what about other important metrics which you don't consider, such as Speed?

It's technically a "football quality".

Here is another one: experience.

If the sum total of Tabla's game was better than Rickett's, he'd be playing and scoring at a higher level, regardless of his age.

He isn't, yet.

Speed is very important. If you organise a foot race...Ricketts will probably win. Tabla will win speed wise while dribbling with the ball and more importantly (maybe the most important form of speed) speed of thought. Ricketts is a blind player and his only quality is basically running. If you don't have a good first touch and you can't read the game you have a massive problem. That's the ideal recipe for having 1 assist in your entire International career.

What higher level can Tabla reach at the moment? He's playing in the USL and he's focussing on a career in Europe. He's 17 and he can't sign a contract there until he turns 18. He's not going to sign a MLS contract so what options are there for him?

13 hours ago, canta15 said:

You do realize you are the only one on this board that has the same "eyeball" for talent as you right? You are obviously in the wrong here, denying facts, and you want us to believe he is better than Ricketts because you watched him play in the USL (you are not the only one). You are acting like a certain man from vancouver

I didn't only watch him play in the USL though but in many many other International matches as well ranging from Cocacaf U17 to Slovak Cup to friendlies vs England or matches with Quebec in and against Belgium.

I was just wondering how many matches you guys have seen of him because I can't understand why I still don't see many footballing aspect arguments on why Ricketts is better than Tabla. That shouldn't be so hard to mention if you've seen him play regurlarly.

Edited September 22, 2016 by SCF08

[farrelld]

Signed an MLS contract today. 2 years starting next year. Will be part of a group of young players going to train with Bologna FC in November.

http://www.impactmontreal.com/en/post/2016/10/20/ballou-jean-yves-tabla-signs-mls-contract-impact

Edited October 20, 2016 by farrelld

[Stryker911]

Their playoff saviour.

[farrelld]

2 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

Their playoff saviour.

Edited my post from above it doesn't look like he can play this year. The contract only starts next year.

[Complete Homer]

Very happy he signed an MLS contract. As much as I am doubtful that he is actually on the radar of Ivory Coast, keeping him in Canada and surrounding him with Canadians in the post-Drogba era should hopefully swing him back to our side of things

[lazlo_80]

Great to see. From a Canadian Team perspective there wasn't a ton to watch on the Impact this past season.

 

[shermanator]

Looks like Tabla's contract starts in 2017, also a 10 day training stint in Bologna.

How long until he is unceremoniously cut by the Impact?

Edited October 20, 2016 by shermanator

[PhillyCanuck]

Does Tabla have Canadian citizenship?

[Kent]

22 minutes ago, PhillyCanuck said:

Does Tabla have Canadian citizenship?

He must. He played for the U17 Canada team in World Cup qualifying in 2015.

[jpg75]

I'd rather see him playing first team football in MLS and staying closer to the Canadian program than catching the eye of Cote D'Ivoire if he signed at a big club. Sounds pathetic, i know, but until he's fully capped it's the safe play.

[BradMack]

10 hours ago, jpg75 said:

I'd rather see him playing first team football in MLS and staying closer to the Canadian program than catching the eye of Cote D'Ivoire if he signed at a big club. Sounds pathetic, i know, but until he's fully capped it's the safe play.

I unfortunately agree... Kind of sucks when a kid signs for a big academy and the first thing you think of is whether or not he has other options. Just one of the realities of being a CMNT fan at this point I guess, hopefully soon it isnt a factor.

[Kent]

8 hours ago, BradMack said:

I unfortunately agree... Kind of sucks when a kid signs for a big academy and the first thing you think of is whether or not he has other options. Just one of the realities of being a CMNT fan at this point I guess, hopefully soon it isnt a factor.

Hopefully soonish we get the CPL up and running and have a bunch of players at a pretty good level playing there and it paves the way for some of them to move on to better leagues. Hopefully that in turn means better results for the men's national team, and we as fans no longer have to scour the academies of big teams in Europe in order to inspire hope that we might get a good player in the near future.

[dyslexic nam]

3 hours ago, Kent said:

Hopefully soonish we get the CPL up and running and have a bunch of players at a pretty good level playing there and it paves the way for some of them to move on to better leagues. Hopefully that in turn means better results for the men's national team, and we as fans no longer have to scour the academies of big teams in Europe in order to inspire hope that we might get a good player in the near future.

Yeah, but by that time a lot of the homegrown kids may be looking to play for Mars FC.