November Mens U20 Camp

[Soccerpro]

So we only need players that will wait around and hold out for a call from Canada, even when another country that they have a connection with (regardless of how valid we believe that connection to be) is actually willing to bring them in without delay? 

 

 

In a few years, if and when the Czechs don't want him anymore, and he comes crawling back to Canada. What do we say? 

 

[shermanator]

So, any updates on the players who are actually at this camp?

[Obinna]

And why don't we have a strong sense of national identity? Who's fault is that? I'm a second generation Canadian and always taught my children to be very proud of their birth country.

 

Good for you, I admire that. Unfortunately for us fans of Canadian soccer, I am willing to bet you are in the minority when it comes to that. For many, the opposite occurs and parents tell their children to be proud of their roots or their heritage.

We can't control people's values. Let's focus on what we can control.

[Oranje]

And why don't we have a strong sense of national identity? Who's fault is that? I'm a second generation Canadian and always taught my children to be very proud of their birth country.

Blame Harper

[Obinna]

He wasn't missed. CSA knew who he was but felt he wasn't good enough for them. He looked in another direction.  Can't fault him. 

CSA is falling into a similar trap. Where before they used the provincial teams to draw from, now they are looking to the pro academies to scout. They need to do a better job of looking at kids outside their stream. Plenty of talented kids out there but they need to continue to want to look for them. 

This is absolutely critical. There is often such a small margin of error when it comes to who gets selected for a provincial team and who doesn't, who gets selected for NTC and who doesn't, who gets accepted to an academy and who doesn't. Etc. 

This is why the CSA needs to figure out how to keep the players who don't make the cut integrated. 

As I mentioned in another thread, good for them for introducing the regional national team camps, but there is still more that can be done, obviously.

[jpg75]

Part of the problem as i see it is that Twardek is a '97. He was a year underage for the 2013 U17 squad and was beat out for a spot in midfield by talented players who were a year older like Bustos and Froese. Then he was 2 years underage for this last U20 cycle. It's the same problem for every player in an odd birth year (remember the '97 U17 squad when Hargreaves, De Guzman and Klukowski were left off?), which is why we need a U16 camp every odd calendar year to keep these players included after introducing them to the program with the U15 camps.

[Obinna]

In a few years, if and when the Czechs don't want him anymore, and he comes crawling back to Canada. What do we say? 

 

Good question. I believe the best way forward is to give him another opportunity, so long as he deserves it on merit, can increase the talent level of the team, and exhibits an attitude which suggests he is comitted to moving our program forward.

I do NOT believe we have anything to gain by not giving a player another chance if he meets the criteria above.

There is a theory on this board that we should make an example of anyone who wants to come back and play for us (exclude extraordinary talents). I fundamentally disagree with that course of action, as it would not only be ineffective (players aren't going to stop testing the waters with other nations because we told Stephen Vitória to fuck off), but it would also hold back our progress (we wouldn't be maximizing the talent available).

At least they are smart enough at the CSA to not implement that strategy.

[Lord Bob]

Some really obtuse so called fans around here.  

So obtuse that we won't cheer for someone who doesn't give a shit about our country. Czech supporters forum is that way, buddy.

[Obinna]

So obtuse that we won't cheer for someone who doesn't give a shit about our country. Czech supporters forum is that way, buddy.

Who said anything about cheering? Simply not demonizing everyone who chooses to play for another nation that isn't Canada should suffice.

Direct rivals withstanding

[Lord Bob]

I mean, there's demonization and there's demonization. I wouldn't run this kid over if I saw him crossing the street. But he decided, while he was still a teenager, that he had to go play for the Czech Republic because Canada didn't appreciate his obvious talents on a local club in an odd-numbered year for the youth cycles. He was so incredibly entitled to a spot in our program, and Canada meant so little, that he effed off before he could celebrate those precious youth caps with a beer.

There's no need for me to pretend I have any time for that on a Canadian soccer supporters' forum. No need whatsoever. It's the Hargreaves situation all over again.

[Obinna]

 

Or, he decided to play for the Czech Republic because they gave him an opportunity before Canada did (regardless of how that opportunity came about).

Those are the cold hard facts - no need to make up a story about how "incredibly entitled" he is, or how Canada meant "So little" to him . You don't know this individual. You're making shit up.

Clearly, the Czech Republic did appreciate his obvious talents. Good for them for taking a chance on him. Bad on us for not selecting him sooner.

[Lord Bob]

Or, he decided to play for the Czech Republic because they gave him an opportunity before Canada did (regardless of how that opportunity came about).

Those are the cold hard facts - no need to make up a story about how "incredibly entitled" he is, or how Canada meant "So little". You're making shit up.

If you don't care about Canada, that's your business. Go ahead and applaud people who leap at whatever opportunities come around rather than have interest in their country.

[shermanator]

The recent Aird, Hoilett, Cavallini, Akindele and Bustos situations have softened my view on this somewhat. These were all players who either chose to represent other nations, chose to go to camps with other nations, or dragged their asses in deciding to commit to Canada. And all 5 will be with Canada come Friday. 

Originally I was of the ilk where if you fell into the first two groups, to hell with you and that's that. At this point, I'm just simply choosing to ignore any Canadian who decides they want to go play for another country. No point in getting mad anymore, as it takes attention away from those willing to commit. So, for me, it's "Twardek? Never heard of him.".

Now, if you decide to be like de Guzman and show up at BMO wearing the Canadian colours, and then play for Holland, then you will be most certainly and deservedly called a traitor and have your name dragged through the mud in these circles. That's the consequences of your decision.

So, again, let's talk about those who are actually at the camp.

[MtlMario]

 

Good for you, I admire that. Unfortunately for us fans of Canadian soccer, I am willing to bet you are in the minority when it comes to that. For many, the opposite occurs and parents tell their children to be proud of their roots or their heritage.

We can't control people's values. Let's focus on what we can control.

Just to be clear, I also tell them to be proud of their heritage but their country is Canada & they are Canadian.Period.

[Ottawafan74]

Not sure why entitlement came up.

Why didn't the CSA feel the need to assess one of the top kids in the province?  Why did the Czechs jump at the chance to invite him?

Blaming the player is the wrong perspective. Determining how he wasn't scouted is what the focus should be. 

[Lord Bob]

Not sure why entitlement came up.

He was the top player on one of the top 2/3 teams for years in the province. The CSA was approached a few times by his soccer club, asking to have him scouted and invited to national camps. Nothing. When they were informed he would be moving to England and he was drawing interest from the Czech program, the CSA response was well if he really wants to play for Canada he will come. 

Plain ignorant on the part of the CSA. 

Would you still blame the kid?

That's why.

[Obinna]

If you don't care about Canada, that's your business. Go ahead and applaud people who leap at whatever opportunities come around rather than have interest in their country.

I care deeply about Canadian soccer, that is why I participate in this form.

I also do not believe in or support double standards. We have been hurt by the FIFA rules, but we have also benefitted from them. 

Just apply your second sentence to all the players who we have benefitted from as a result from FIFA's rules, and you'll see that your position is unreasonable.

[Lord Bob]

Just apply your second sentence to all the players who we have benefitted from as a result from FIFA's rules, and you'll see that your position is unreasonable.

You may be operating under the assumption that I want Canada to bring in "technical Canadians" from other countries with no bona fide attachment to Canada but the chance to crack a national setup earlier than the otherwise might. I do not.

There are many people to blame for these affairs. FIFA, with its shambolic rules, is one of them. The Canadian scouting apparatus doesn't always help. But ultimately it's a matter of personal responsibility. A Canadian kid makes the decision to represent another country, it is not forced upon him.

Nobody is unforgiveable. Everybody matures as they get older (except me). It's not about hating some kid I've never met. It's about saying that he didn't stumble into the Czech program, but went there because he wanted a quicker chance to play internationally more than he wanted to represent and help his country. It wasn't a scout. It was his choice.

[Ottawafan74]

 

That's why.

Ah ok. Thanks for the clarification. Now I know you've never dealt with any of the soccer governing bodies in this country. 

The sense of entitlement in this case actually comes from the CSA. I am not anti CSA at all but in this case they made a mistake. They would have said well he isn't in the program so he's not really on our radar. That's how they operate. They don't like going outside their program. 

The fact he was one of the best players doesn't entitle him to anything. The fact the Czechs saw his talent and grabbed him shows how much the CSA coaches messed up. With all the games he played in Toronto it would have been easy for them to go watch him. They decided they didn't need to. 

[Obinna]

You may be operating under the assumption that I want Canada to bring in "technical Canadians" from other countries with no bona fide attachment to Canada but the chance to crack a national setup earlier than the otherwise might. I do not.

There are many people to blame for these affairs. FIFA, with its shambolic rules, is one of them. The Canadian scouting apparatus doesn't always help. But ultimately it's a matter of personal responsibility. A Canadian kid makes the decision to represent another country, it is not forced upon him.

Nobody is unforgiveable. Everybody matures as they get older (except me). It's not about hating some kid I've never met. It's about saying that he didn't stumble into the Czech program, but went there because he wanted a quicker chance to play internationally more than he wanted to represent and help his country. It wasn't a scout. It was his choice.

Okay great, thank you for making your position clear. 

You know, that last paragraph you wrote reminded me of this kid named Fraser Aird. He went on record stating that he made a decision to play for Canada because he never wanted to wait any longer to become an international, so he chose Canada. He said it was probably easier to get games with Canada.

Considering your strong stance on this issue, should I assume you won't be cheering for Fraser on the 13th? Since you know, he "wanted a quicker chance to play internationally more than he wanted to represent and help his country". Or, will you throw all of that out the window because it is CANADA he will be playing for?

.........

And if that example doesn't suit you, try Will Johnson, or Marcel De Jong, or Tesho Akindele. 

Will and Marcel in particular decided to represent another country. Make sure not to cheer for these "technical Canadians" at BC Place next week. After all, it is a matter of personal responsibility, as you put it.

[Lord Bob]

Fraser Aird was born and raised in Toronto. I actually am not a Marcel de Jong, Will Johnson, or Tesho Akindele fan, and when Akindele was going to play for the United States I wrote a blog post saying that I wasn't bothered.

[Obinna]

Fraser Aird was born and raised in Toronto. I actually am not a Marcel de Jong, Will Johnson, or Tesho Akindele fan, and when Akindele was going to play for the United States I wrote a blog post saying that I wasn't bothered.

And your not bothered by the fact that his motivation to play for us was to become an international quickly? I am surprised.

Anyways..

We have beat this dead horse enough now. I am done. You are indifferent to Tesho, yet you feel compelled to chime in about this Czech. Would be nice if you also felt indifferent towards this kid and others like him as well, but I can't tell you how to feel. You're a grown man.

The only thing that is important is that we WHOOP that Honduran ass on the 13th!

Oh, and the U-20 camp in Mexico, that thing too. Let's win!

[Lord Bob]

Yeah, I've wearied the board far, far more than enough. Come on lads!

[tbrown]

Very happy to see:

CB- Fikayo Tomori | ENG / Chelsea FC U-21
M- Tristan Borges | CAN / Toronto FC II
M- Joshua Doughty | ENG / Manchester United FC U-21
F- Dario Zanatta | SCO / Heats of Midlothian FC

 

There's some real talent there.

Thats a very solid spine of the team. 

[lazlo_80]

You know your on a Canadian supporters board when a Chelsea kid and a Man U kid are playing for the team...but there's still a page of arguing over whether we should hate the kid who plays for millwall who turned us down. 

This thread has reached peak voyageurs cliche. Well done boys.