Fan Violence at TFC-MTL Playoff game

[BrennanFan]

 

I thought some more light should be shed on some horrible events that happened at Stade Saputo yesterday.

I wasn't there.  This is what I've heard from people who were there.  

I wouldn't say there was fighting.  More like vicious, cowardly attacks by Montreal supporters against TFC supporters.  

The Montreal supporters involved were hitting people with retractable batons.  

In one instance, a female in the TFC supporters section was struck in the face with a baton.

Really disgusting, pathetic behaviour.  

Would this have happened if TFC had not been limited to 100 travelling supporters?  I doubt it.

 

If anyone who was there would like to chime in here, please do so.  

Anyone from UM02 care to comment?   

[shermanator]

The fact that this allegedly happened is a sad statement on supporters culture in Canada. There's no place for this in any supporters group in any region of the country.

Appreciating that the majority of supporters are not involved, and that the violence reflects a small percent of actual supporters, I think that there are certain supporters in Toronto and Montreal in particular need to grow the hell up before next year's games kick off. 

[Trillium]

 

I thought some more light should be shed on some horrible events that happened at Stade Saputo yesterday.

I wasn't there.  This is what I've heard from people who were there.  

I wouldn't say there was fighting.  More like vicious, cowardly attacks by Montreal supporters against TFC supporters.  

The Montreal supporters involved were hitting people with retractable batons.  

In one instance, a female in the TFC supporters section was struck in the face with a baton.

Really disgusting, pathetic behaviour.  

Would this have happened if TFC had not been limited to 100 travelling supporters?  I doubt it.

 

If anyone who was there would like to chime in here, please do so.  

Anyone from UM02 care to comment?   

I am not a member of UM02, so do not construe this as being a comment from them.

You were not in the stadia and heard things second hand, but there is a lack of detail. When was the female fan hit with the "retractable baton" which kinda sounds like a device a security person would have. Was it before the game in the stadium, during the game in the supporters section seats or was she sitting in seating bought through Ticket Master in area open to anyone ?

Was it after the game, outside the stadium from stadia to a parking lot or waiting bus ?

I know your going say ... whoa hey... why all demand for detail, its really about understanding what can be done going forward. 

I will say at times Best Security who works in the stadium is overzealous and poorly trained, I think they create more issues then they solve... I also think if you go as a traveling fan you need to be aware of your circumstances and think at all times... can I do this and avoid a negative situation or should I do something else. So for example if you park at Saputo on the surface lot at the East of the stadium, it involves traversing an area which is not well lit at night, is that a good place to park if you even remotely think someone with too much beer and bravado in them might mouth off at you ?

I am a big believer in actually liking opposing fan groups..be it club or national, I can sit and have a beer or talk ..or whatever after a game, but some folks like to play games and threaten to shoot you ( Honduras ) physically bump you and push you ( Panama ) etc. but if you read the situations the right way and do things with safety in mind you will be fine in most places, most times.

This will likely be construed in the wrong way, but the TFC SG's might want to think about issues of security and when travelling as group, have one individual of the SG responsible for safety and security in other stadia, is it they way other sports are in North America no, but if the statements above and others are true it is a reality that all SG's need to embrace.

The TFC / Montreal rivalry will only grow over time, individual's may make bad decisions and be rude or stupid or violent or criminal .. but the leadership of SG's can control their respective membership and they will have begin doing so in an appropriate manner before it all goes to hell in a handbasket.

 

 

 

 

[1zzurri]

Seeing pictures of TFC fans who were pepper sprayed by police after getting ambushed after the game is quite allarming. Nevermind those who were attacked with batons pre game. I even heard there was an undercover cop mixed in tfc fan section who had to act when montreal fans tried to attack away support. I am sorry but Montreal fans are animals, even if it is a minuscule portion of them. Reminds of the incident when UM02 threw chairs to people walking down below at BMO which could have KILLED somebody(On youtube). As much as you may hate Toronto, I don't recall them ever attacking Montreal fans like that. A scuffle or fight is one thing. Jumping someone with weapons is another. And I hope no one brings up flares or smoke into this convo because that happens every year. This was a whole new level of low. I even heard the police lead tfc fans to an area with Montreal impact fans waiting in the park. Is this true? 

[Unnamed Trialist]

I understand when you are there, it is bothersome, but this is pretty chicken-shit stuff. I am not saying it is good, and I have been subject to verbal and physical abuse before and it's upsetting as a travelling supporter, and worse if with a kid (Barça fan at Espanyol stadium, for example). But still, it's scratch, and minor. If you want to make an issue of it, just be aware: if authorities take action against everyone for what a few fools do, then the vast majority loses out, almost always.

There are certain things supporter groups can do, like ask members to not be personally confrontational (collectively you have to be), or eliminate flares--but hey, if security let fireworks in, that is the club's responsibility, the owner's in fact at Saputo, so fine him, and, solve the problem there first by spending money on proper staff and not being a cheapo.

Those who know me also know that I tend to have certain animosity towards certain visiting or opposing fans, like Sounders, who I frigging hate. I will only talk to one diplomatically, like in Cold-War detente conditions. A small concession to being human. I also agree you should not allow visiting fans to feel comfortable cheering their team and making noise in your stadium. The real problem is that the majority of home fans in MLS sit on their hands and are useless and won't even consider the possibility of drowning them out collectively, as you'lll see anywhere in Europe or S. America. That makes things worse in fact: if home supporters were all on the proper wavelength, visiting fans would be less of a bother, and home fans would be less irritable.

One more thing: Impact winning early and easily should have calmed down home fans, so if someone does not feel the triumph of victory, which is the best in-your-face there is, something is wrong. The fact that goals against do not shut up fans is unnatural, however radical the fans; whereever I have seen the game, a goal against or two always reduces decibels.Even against hardcores. If that does not happen with supporter groups in MLS, it is NOT because they are committed and serious. It's because they're not there for the football, as I see it. They don't care about the game, so don't understand that winning is the best chant ever.

[matty]

Has there been any complaint file with the CSA, MLS or CONCACAF? If so what punishment could the Impact face? I doubt the MLS or CSA would make them play a closed door game or that CONCACAF would bar them.

[1zzurri]

 

One more thing: Impact winning early and easily should have calmed down home fans, so if someone does not feel the triumph of victory, which is the best in-your-face there is, something is wrong. The fact that goals against do not shut up fans is unnatural, however radical the fans; whereever I have seen the game, a goal against or two always reduces decibels.Even against hardcores. If that does not happen with supporter groups in MLS, it is NOT because they are committed and serious. It's because they're not there for the football, as I see it. They don't care about the game, so don't understand that winning is the best chant ever.

My goodness, what is this nonsense? You are saying if away fans get louder after being scored upon, they are not there for football? Or am i misreading something?

[Unnamed Trialist]

My goodness, what is this nonsense? You are saying if away fans get louder after being scored upon, they are not there for football? Or am i misreading something?

I don't think you are going to get me on your side with the use of the Word "nonsense", sorry.

Only a robotic fan base with no interest in the game cannot be silenced, for a time at least, by an embarrassing loss on the field. In MLS we have supporter groups who think it is otherwise, because they are trying too fcking hard to be like real fans. And in the end, prove they are not. Where the hell did we come up with this idea, that I support my team no matter what and sit in the choir chirping away the whole time, come hell or high wáter? That is a total bastardization of supporter culture.

I've seen this demonstrated literally dozens of times, at Camp Nou, up to thousands of visiting supporters from some of the toughest support in Europe, I don't have to say who we've faced over 25 years--and not one has ever sustained support in the face of a couple goals against. Because they are actually fans, they are hurt by losing to a rival. If it's close, they'll keep it up, hopeful,  but if it's two goals and the other team dominating, it'll slip severely, chanting, noise, general disposition, posture, even the quality of the coordination. I have also seen it in EPL, Championship and League One; it holds true in all divisions I've seen in Spain which is from 1st to 8th, from thousands to a dozen. Only the fringe drunks in a neo-nazi or pseudo-anarchist section or folks in some brass band using the game to practice keep it up relentlessly. The rest, real fans, feel loss.

You can't be a football fan, a supporter of a team, and not be human.

 

[Yagbod]

So because they give up in the stadia that you visit we should give up here? Do you prefer that supporters observe a period of silence before supporting again?

When our team goes down that is the very fucking moment to double the effort.  They need our boost then. Not after a period of feeling shame and abandonment.

UnnamedTrialist, you are advocating the most unproductive type of support. Be silent yourself if you can't handle adversity. But don't tell me we can't push our team on when they falter.

[Unnamed Trialist]

That is wonderful, very brave , very admirable, but pretty poser, as I see it. And pretty insecure, I mean: am I telling you what to do? Do what you want and don't get all in a knot. All I am doing slagging what I see as fake supporter culture in MLS, which is terribly contradictory because those promoting it think they are copying what is done elsewhere.

One thing is to have your great noble principle which you follow like a little clone, unthinking; another thing is to be affected by what happens on the field and actually follow the ebb and flow as a real fan does. 

Was watching the Portland KC elimination again, from extra time on, they do repeats on Eurosport here. You have this amazing support, for me better than Seattle who I find very orchestrated at Century Link, never been to Portland but for me it looks more realistic. The crowd is amazing, not just supporter sections but huge part of the stadium. But you can hear it rise and fall. In ET the KC goal is followed by a massive fall in noise. And while it kicks up again, it is more nail-biting and uneasy all the way to the unexpected tying goal. When the crowd goes beserk.

Then, for penalties, listen what happens when Timbers miss the first, it just goes dead. Silence. Then KC scores and it's a funeral. And then, timidly, the FC-PT chant comes up from some remote corner of Providence and when they score the next it rises, when KC misses, it surges back, as Timbers are no longer down in the kicks.

A silent supporter section in a critical moment of a game, even for half a minute, is a sign they are actually watching the game. Anything less is wannabe as far as I am concerned.

 

[El Hombre]

Oh good, a topic with a pretty interesting subject was started by BrennanFan and now it has been reduced to who's harder than who and who's more of a true football fan than who.  Well done.  That'll help move things forward.

Can anyone point me to somewhere this is actually being discussed?  I'd like to read about the details.

[Bison44]

Were there any charges filed? Fans got pepper sprayed by the Montreal police? Was anybody actually there to see this? That is quite shocking if its true.  I didn't hear this anywhere but this thread, did it make the papers??  

[Grizzly]

If there is ever any problem between TFC fans and any other group one can always be sure that the internet will be full of TFC fans with exaggerated, biased accounts that they heard from a friend of a friend and claiming it was all the fault of the other side. I heard about 2 incidents over the 2 games though was not present at either nor to my knowledge was anyone from UM present. The first one involved TFC fans attacking Impact fans in the parking lot going to the Sunday game after they got off the metro in particular the pre-game tailgate of 127, which is a very peaceful supporters group. The second one is the incident after the Thursday game. I can't say who was responsible for starting that however reports that police arrested and pepper sprayed some TFC fans suggest that it was not only Montreal fans involved.

We have had our share of incidents in Toronto as well and the famous chair incident at BMO was started when 2 Impact fans (who somehow did not get the message they were not supposed to leave the section at the end of the game) were being attacked by a large group of TFC supporters below the stands. We almost got attacked after our last road trip to Toronto as we were walking to a bar and passed another bar that seemed to be a supporters group bar. People threw stuff at us from the patio and 5 or 6 guys ran out to confront us. I assume it was a supporters bar because there was a short dude running around like a chicken without a head yelling incomprehensible stuff into a megaphone that I don't think was about how much he loved Montreal. Anyway when the dudes realized most of the bar did not follow them and they were outnumbered they quickly backed down and we went on our merry way but had they outnumbered us I think the outcome would have been a lot different. I don't think it was the RPB or USector bar so possibly it was Inebriatti but I don't know.

As for the claims that something happened during the Thursday game in the stands, count me as being sceptical. The 100 TFC fans were alone in a large section with security around them. And the surrounding sections are mostly full of families and the club's false supporter group, 1642, who I am pretty sure are absolutely forbidden by the club to confront other fans. Indeed 1642 members have been posting pictures from both games of themselves posing with both TFC fans and players. I obviously was not in the TFC away section so can't rule anything out but I certainly never noticed any sort of commotion or problem there any time I looked at that section during the game.

And to mention the Giovinco incident after the game, someone yelled something at him (that seems to be just before the video started) and then he tries to attack that person. I am not one to overly criticize players for responding like that because they are human and maybe I would do the same thing in their situation but on the other hand has this guy never been heckled in Italy? Indeed the fans in the video seemed to be mostly Italian Montrealers who probably heckled him as much because they hated Juventus as TFC. And the guy who responds to verbal abuse with violence is the one most in the wrong by any standard and that was Giovinco (not to mention that he tries to attack the guy fully knowing that security is going to back him up whatever happens). I am not someone to call for sanctions for stuff like that but if the league had any consistency it would suspend Giovinco for several games for trying to attack a fan. The supporters groups of both sides were punished for pyro so if Garber were consistent Giovinco would get a suspension for attacking a fan though we all know he will not.

Security is very bad at both BMO and Saputo though with good security stuff like this could be avoided. We have told them both over and over again what to do to prevent problems and they never listen. We say, "Put security from the metro station exit to the stadium entrance." and their response is "Don't do pyro it is dangerous and we will employ lots of security to pat you guys down". The league and clubs continue to focus on non dangerous stuff that creates atmosphere while ignoring the truly dangerous things that they will then blame us for if anything happens. 

[BrennanFan]

 

Lets not lose track of the real issue here.  Male Impact fans were hitting females:

 

 

 

[Admin]

Ultimately, this is very very few people.

There is far more solidarity on this issue than division. Nobody wants this, so at least recognize that fact in talking to one another about it.

Want to change this? Isolate those people socially.  Directly or indirectly. 

[SoccerfanCAN]

I'd sure like to see more people calling out a very big part of European and South American soccer culture for what it is, undeveloped, immature, and very un-north american.

It's cool that so many of you want to bring the flag waving, songs, and other cool parts of that culture, but let's be very clear here: this is North America and we don't allow that babaric aspect of soccer support here. It's a sport. Not a f-ing way of life, not "more than a club", it's not tribal, it's not political, it's just a sports game.

Leave the violence, culture of fear, and stupid stupid smoke bombs back in europe where it belongs. You want a template to go by? Check out any baseball, hockey, basketball, of football game in Canada or America. We have more than our fair share of violence here in North American, but it isn't manifested in some loser's idea of supporters culture.

Grow up and go take out your issues somewhere else. Losers.