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How we react when "traitors" play club games in Canada.


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So I've actually never been to an MLS game but based on ones I've watched on TV recently there doesn't seem to be a big vocal negative reaction to players that have switched allegiances or refused to play for Canada.

No one seemed to boo Bunbury when New England played at Saputo recently.

Couldn't hear anybody anti-Vitoria chants during the recent game where he scored when Philly was at BMO Field.

The reason why I ask is that Daniel Fernandes recently made a move to NASL, and on Sunday he will likely start with the San Antonio Scorpions when they are hosted by the Ottawa Fury. It's his first club game in Canada I think.

Should we single him out or boo him everytime he touches the ball? Yell "Portuguese reject"? What's the precedent?

EDIT:

I know there is also confusion about the fact that he switched to Portugal before the one time switch rule came into effect. Should we be kind and ask him of he can switch back? If he wants to?

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So I've actually never been to an MLS game but based on ones I've watched on TV recently there doesn't seem to be a big vocal negative reaction to players that have switched allegiances or refused to play for Canada.

No one seemed to boo Bunbury when New England played at Saputo recently.

Couldn't hear anybody anti-Vitoria chants during the recent game where he scored when Philly was at BMO Field.

The reason why I ask is that Daniel Fernandes recently made a move to NASL, and on Sunday he will likely start with the San Antonio Scorpions when they are hosted by the Ottawa Fury. It's his first club game in Canada I think.

Should we single him out or boo him everytime he touches the ball? Yell "Portuguese reject"? What's the precedent?

Well I mean, Bunbury gets that Tifo whenever he plays in TO.

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Well I mean, Bunbury gets that Tifo whenever he plays in TO.

What's the specific tifo again?

 

The average MLS fan isn't into the CMNT, prolly why you won't see/hear much of a reaction.

The Bytown Boys and Stony Monday Riot (The Fury supporters groups) are certainly into the canMNT and canWNT for the most part. Lots of them post on this forum.

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I think you don't know the Dani Fernandes story, because if you did you'd realize that each case is different. He only played for Portugal after 3 years of being ignored by Canada, when he was clearly the Canadian keeper in his age at the highest level club.

So in Dani's case, he actually never deserted, he was abandonned by the program (or by Dale Mitchell). He was not the only person to suffer that fate, but it is fair to say. He played for Canada in the lead-up to the 2003 u-20 World Cup. He was one of three keepers in Carolina where we qualified, beating the US, but Alim Karim played. He was on the initial roster to go the training camp, in Turkey, for the 2003 Cup, but missed out because the tournament was put back for the Gulf War, and he was not brought into the second call-up. Srdjan Djekanovic suffered the same fate. 

After that he was never considered by Canada, despite getting his pro career underway. He'd already signed with PAOK by summer 2003, which has been his most important club stint over his career (I have his game shirt from a win vs Olympiakos in Athens, from late 2005, which really made Portugal take notice). He did not play internationally again until being called for Portugal in early 2006, for the qualifiers for the Euro u-21 Championship. He was called into the senior team in late 2008 and played vs. Kuwait, in what many thought was not a real cap (it was a Kuwait XI, perhaps not an A side), in May 2009. He was then capped in a match vs Finland. He went with Portugal to the WC in S Africa but did not play. 

All the time, and I know as I was regularly in touch with him all through the period, he insisted on his interest in playing for Canada. After Kuwait, for those months before the Finland game, he even was convinced he was not capped and could still be called up by Canada. I always had the clear impression that he felt much more Canadian (and proudly East Van!!) than Portuguese, but that is not for me to really say.

After going to the WC he really has not spoken about this. As I have mentioned here a few summers ago a fellow Voyageur and I sought to set him up with Lenarduzzi, he was in pre-season in Greece. I think they even spoke. He has always been keen to return to Canada, since he left when he was a teen and has never been back for any longer than summer break since. 

Last time I saw him was when Panathinaikos played Barcelona here in Champions in September 2010, just after the WC. He did not play.

So I don't think this is the kind of player you jeer. I don't know if S Antonio has played in Edmonton, where he was born, but if not, him coming home to play on Canadian soil for the first time ever as a pro will for sure be an emotional experience. For what it's worth.

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So I've actually never been to an MLS game but based on ones I've watched on TV recently there doesn't seem to be a big vocal negative reaction to players that have switched allegiances or refused to play for Canada.

No one seemed to boo Bunbury when New England played at Saputo recently.

Couldn't hear anybody anti-Vitoria chants during the recent game where he scored when Philly was at BMO Field.

The reason why I ask is that Daniel Fernandes recently made a move to NASL, and on Sunday he will likely start with the San Antonio Scorpions when they are hosted by the Ottawa Fury. It's his first club game in Canada I think.

Should we single him out or boo him everytime he touches the ball? Yell "Portuguese reject"? What's the precedent?

Teal is a colour, Alex is a legend.

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@unnamed trialist

Coaches come and go, nationalities are forever.

The current coaches of the program abandoned me is not really a valid excuse... If it were, Hargreaves is okay because he only picked Wales after not being selected for Canada in U-17 (before subsequently abandoning Wales, of course).

Everyone has an excuse, if you like them. Begovic is okay because he only switched after being threatened by mafia types. Teal is okay because he's really American... It goes on and on.

Fact is he represented Canada and then chose to represent another nation. Whatever the reason.  The fact he really felt Canadian and not Portuguese is actually even more infuriating, no make that disgusting. Representing a nation is not club ball, but he's treated it as such.

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I don't know if S Antonio has played in Edmonton, where he was born,

San Antonio played up in Edmonton before he arrived. This would be his first game back in Canada.

 

 ...he insisted on his interest in playing for Canada...

If what you say is true and his heart is in the right place, what should we do? I don't want to jeer him but I don't want to say nothing either.

I want him to know that we know who he is and that we're upset he went over to Portugal yet at the same time ask him what he thinks of the whole situation. Can he switch back to Canada because his switch was before the "one time switch" rule?

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I agree with Jefferey about Fernandes because I remember the story as well and never regarded him like the other traitors. It was not just that he was not selected for one tournament, his career was blooming and Canada seemed to have no interest in him. At the time he made the decision it wasn't really a choice between Canada and Portugal it was a choice between Portugal and no international football. Maybe he would have chosen Portugal anyway, we never know, but he was not turning down Canada calls, we were not calling him. He apparently had a bad relationship with Mitchell and Fernandes himself admitted he was hard to handle as a kid but a pro-career is short and at the time he chose Portugal it did not seem like Canada would ever be interested in him.

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I agree with Jefferey about Fernandes because I remember the story as well and never regarded him like the other traitors. It was not just that he was not selected for one tournament, his career was blooming and Canada seemed to have no interest in him. At the time he made the decision it wasn't really a choice between Canada and Portugal it was a choice between Portugal and no international football. Maybe he would have chosen Portugal anyway, we never know, but he was not turning down Canada calls, we were not calling him. He apparently had a bad relationship with Mitchell and Fernandes himself admitted he was hard to handle as a kid but a pro-career is short and at the time he chose Portugal it did not seem like Canada would ever be interested in him.

I remember this situation as well but don't recall it being as clear cut as a choice between Portugal or no international football.

This is different to say, Joe Didulica who even after playing for Ajax and Vienna was ignored and essentially begged the Australian coach to select him. Only when told that he was far behind Mark Schwartzer and Zeljko Kalac in the pecking order did he, somewhat reluctantly, finally accept a call up from Croatia. Can't begrudge him for his choice.

Fernandes spat the dummy at being cut, burned a bridge and ditched the program. And while I do not know him, I would speculate that a spot for Portugal in the WC would have won out over a friendly for lowly ranked Canada even if the coaches had pushed for him.

Anyway, let bygones be bygones. He wouldn't be the saviour now so I'm really non-fussed either way at this stage. Lars was steady and not the reason we didn't rise up the rankings in the mid to late 2000s.

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Fernandes spat the dummy at being cut, burned a bridge and ditched the program. And while I do not know him, I would speculate that a spot for Portugal in the WC would have won out over a friendly for lowly ranked Canada even if the coaches had pushed for him.

Anyway, let bygones be bygones. He wouldn't be the saviour now so I'm really non-fussed either way at this stage. Lars was steady and not the reason we didn't rise up the rankings in the mid to late 2000s.

Maybe it is just how you express it, or maybe--as I see it--you are simply wrong, though the vitriol might make you feel good. Since I had regular contact with him from the day he signed for Celta Vigo at age 18, I think I can judge correctly. 

It was Canada that burned the bridge and ditched Daniel. As to why he did not play at Blackbaud, he was not sure, but Karim did well, no doubt, even though he never went beyond being a NCAA player. Dani was on the roster for the World u-20s, as was Srdjan, I have the call-up list in fact--and both were cut just a few months later, though in fact both had continued to play and advance at a high level. 

It is true that Daniel was impatient to play when he was young, being a keeper it is even more critical, but when I say impatient, I am talking about even half a season on the bench made him ask for a loan out or transfer. He moved immediately to get playing time. 

With Canada he waited almost 3 years. So you could say that was an incredible feat of patience on his part. And Canada had great chances to call him in, probably up to 5 or 6 chances which is a lot for a lower age keeper. Has to be said: he's never had an agent or rep handling that part of his career.

Only when he felt he could do no more with Canada, and Portugal came knocking, did he finally say yes. And even then that did not cap tie him, he is only barely cap-tied in fact, one or maybe two.

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After going to the WC he really has not spoken about this. As I have mentioned here a few summers ago a fellow Voyageur and I sought to set him up with Lenarduzzi, he was in pre-season in Greece. I think they even spoke. He has always been keen to return to Canada, since he left when he was a teen and has never been back for any longer than summer break since. 

 

That was me.  I was fortunate to train one night with Dani at South Memorial in Vancouver in about 2010 (I even managed to hit a laser into the corner passed him - not bad for an old guy!).  I helped to set him up with Lenarduzzi, but all the Whitecaps offered was an opportunity for a tryout.  This was not something that Dani expected since he was only about two years removed from being the Portuguese number three keeper at the 2008 World Cup.

I was also trying to connect Dani with Morgan Quarry at the CSA, but I am not sure if they ever connected at that time.   Regardless, at the time, Dani was trying to play in N. America especially in Vancouver as he had been away from home and family for awhile.

By the way, he is a heck of a nice guy!

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Maybe it is just how you express it, or maybe--as I see it--you are simply wrong, though the vitriol might make you feel good. Since I had regular contact with him from the day he signed for Celta Vigo at age 18, I think I can judge correctly. 

It was Canada that burned the bridge and ditched Daniel. As to why he did not play at Blackbaud, he was not sure, but Karim did well, no doubt, even though he never went beyond being a NCAA player. Dani was on the roster for the World u-20s, as was Srdjan, I have the call-up list in fact--and both were cut just a few months later, though in fact both had continued to play and advance at a high level. 

It is true that Daniel was impatient to play when he was young, being a keeper it is even more critical, but when I say impatient, I am talking about even half a season on the bench made him ask for a loan out or transfer. He moved immediately to get playing time. 

With Canada he waited almost 3 years. So you could say that was an incredible feat of patience on his part. And Canada had great chances to call him in, probably up to 5 or 6 chances which is a lot for a lower age keeper. Has to be said: he's never had an agent or rep handling that part of his career.

Only when he felt he could do no more with Canada, and Portugal came knocking, did he finally say yes. And even then that did not cap tie him, he is only barely cap-tied in fact, one or maybe two.

Maybe I'm wrong. Fair play. But maybe you heard one side and took it as gospel. Athlete always right, eh.  I've seen first hand that one man's impression can be totally incorrect. I'm sure you have too, my friend. 

Vitriol - I spread no hate here, and didn't even comment on whether to boo this player or that player. But I would have thought you'd have mellowed with age. I remember an arrogant know it all on this board called Jeffrey S living in Spain in the year 2000. I'm  guessing you're him, or am I wrong on that call as well? Seriously man, relax. All the unnecessary stress can't be good for your health. 

Most keepers don't play for their national team in their early 20s. First call ups are common for 25 or 26 year olds, or older.  There was obvious impatience here, and maybe (some have reported in this thread) a strain with the regime. Hardly enough to claim a call up is forever out of the question. 

I cannot comment on whether he's a good guy or otherwise, and that's irrelevant to this thread. 

 

 

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Maybe I'm wrong. Fair play. But maybe you heard one side and took it as gospel. Athlete always right, eh.  I've seen first hand that one man's impression can be totally incorrect. I'm sure you have too, my friend. 

Vitriol - I spread no hate here, and didn't even comment on whether to boo this player or that player. But I would have thought you'd have mellowed with age. I remember an arrogant know it all on this board called Jeffrey S living in Spain in the year 2000. I'm  guessing you're him, or am I wrong on that call as well? Seriously man, relax. All the unnecessary stress can't be good for your health. 

Most keepers don't play for their national team in their early 20s. First call ups are common for 25 or 26 year olds, or older.  There was obvious impatience here, and maybe (some have reported in this thread) a strain with the regime. Hardly enough to claim a call up is forever out of the question. 

I cannot comment on whether he's a good guy or otherwise, and that's irrelevant to this thread. 

 

 

That was an interesting way of staying on topic, personal attacks, touché. If you think you are right just make the case. Say what you think and don't be afraid, its a soccer board, nobody will bite you.

Speaking of which, of the only thing remotely on topic thing you are trying to say in that post, the age of keeper call-ups, well do us a favour and read what was said. The only late teens-early 20 international call-ups for Daniel Fernandes were u-20 and u-21. Though he could have been called for our senior men in late 2005, he was amongst our 2-3 keepers playing at the highest club level. 

BTW, Neuer was called up for full Germany age 23, De Gea for Spain age 20, Lloris was 23, I could go on--and so you don't think it is just this generation, Buffon was called by Cesar Maldini for Italy's senior side at age 19. (edit: so we don't say it is just in Europe, Keylor Navas was called up for the Senior men Costa Rica side age 19 and debuted at 21). So your comment about what is normal isn't even based on fact.  

 

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That was me.  I was fortunate to train one night with Dani at South Memorial in Vancouver in about 2010 (I even managed to hit a laser into the corner passed him - not bad for an old guy!).  I helped to set him up with Lenarduzzi, but all the Whitecaps offered was an opportunity for a tryout.  This was not something that Dani expected since he was only about two years removed from being the Portuguese number three keeper at the 2008 World Cup.

I was also trying to connect Dani with Morgan Quarry at the CSA, but I am not sure if they ever connected at that time.   Regardless, at the time, Dani was trying to play in N. America especially in Vancouver as he had been away from home and family for awhile.

By the way, he is a heck of a nice guy!

Of course I know it was you IK but I was trying to be discreet.

And actually, that was right after the 2010 WC.

I think the main reason, as I posted here at the time in fact, was that he was making 400 thousand euros a year at Bochum and no keeper in MLS was making anywhere near that, Mondragon was the highest paid at the time and made something like 20% less. For his NEXT contract, after the Twente is up, I would not be surprised if he looked for a final contract, even with a pay drop, with MLS--or Norway--for personal reasons.

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Thanks,  Jeffrey, for the discretion.  

Yes, the year you cite is correct. For some reason I thought that the WC was in 2008 - Whoops.  Anyway, as we both recall, it was an odd response from the Whitecaps at the time because Dani was close to the top of his game and would,very likely, have done very well in MLS.  His salary was an issue as you point out.

As for the Canada option, it was an all round unfortunate thing.  Mitchell misread Dani's potential and the rest is history.  I am sure that there were other behind the scenes issues as well.

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He directed the whole game today, i was impressed. He was always talking and directing the players where to move.

Made some great saves in the first half.

He came up for the corner at the end of the second half and attempted a scissor kick. 

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That was an interesting way of staying on topic, personal attacks, touché. If you think you are right just make the case. Say what you think and don't be afraid, its a soccer board, nobody will bite you.

Speaking of which, of the only thing remotely on topic thing you are trying to say in that post, the age of keeper call-ups, well do us a favour and read what was said. The only late teens-early 20 international call-ups for Daniel Fernandes were u-20 and u-21. Though he could have been called for our senior men in late 2005, he was amongst our 2-3 keepers playing at the highest club level. 

BTW, Neuer was called up for full Germany age 23, De Gea for Spain age 20, Lloris was 23, I could go on--and so you don't think it is just this generation, Buffon was called by Cesar Maldini for Italy's senior side at age 19. (edit: so we don't say it is just in Europe, Keylor Navas was called up for the Senior men Costa Rica side age 19 and debuted at 21). So your comment about what is normal isn't even based on fact.  

 

Interesting, you call me vitriolic. I respond. You accuse me of straying into personal attacks. Despite your pleasant PM I wonder if you still are the same old Jeffrey S. But I will return your PM with pleasantness and hopefully we can move on.

In the midst of your personal attack, you may have missed the first line of my last message: "Maybe I'm wrong. Fair play".

Responding to the last point - you have cherry picked among the very best keepers in the world. Mr Fernandes has never been in that category, I'm sure you agree. For the mere mortals, look at their ages.

If you look at recent starters in the Euro qualifiers I think you'll find my statement was correct (or at least not incorrect). Quite a few of the keepers weren't called up until their mid-20s: McGovern (first call up at 26) and Randolph (first call up at 25) from Norn Iron and the Republic being two that immediately come to mind. Not enough time or energy to go through all the keepers for these matches. Fair to say some were, some weren't. Some have to wait for the honour. I guess the impatient don't wait :)

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So you think Fernandes looked like top notch, a good quality keeper, another competent NASL keeper, washed up? Curious to see how he looked. 

I won't ask if he is worth half a million dollars to S Antonio because it's obvious no keeper could be in NASL.

I think I am one of the few people here who has some idea of his strengths and virtues, at least when he was at the top of his game. As I watched game highlights for season upon season, meaning saves and goals against. He's very big and corpulent. He is not incredibly good in the air despite this, though he can hold his place and bring a ball down he's often better staying beneath the pipes. He's actually more an athletic shot stopper in spite of his size. He has character, that is obvious, and he's a leader. I am not sure he's particularly skilled with his feet, he is a bit more old school and I don't think has ever had to play out for any of this teams, but he always said in practice he would play striker and score. And in fact he once scored for Bochum I think.

I do not think he could seriously challenge for a Canada MNT spot now even if he were not cap tied, not as he is now playing.

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Even if the average fan knew the backstory I doubt they'd care as much as many of us do.  If they were aware, I think a lot of people would see Hargreaves' example (2 World Cups and a dream move to Man Utd) and realize that trusting the CSA with your international future can be a mistake regardless of how much national pride you have.

Not only that, but how many Vees would have booed someone like Hoilett?  Thank f*ck he never read this board

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