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NEW Mother of all Canucks Abroad (and domestic)


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2 minutes ago, Toje said:

Bit of a drop from Palermo, was hoping he would end up in Serie C. Playing in Italy is great for experience though. Italian teams tend to do very well at developing their players. Still very young (1998 I think?) I think the move was so that he can get regular minutes. 

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2 hours ago, Toje said:

And yet some among us are calling for him to be included in the squad for the El Salvador game... Reality check. One. Two.

Edited by BCM
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3 hours ago, SpecialK said:

James Pantemis ??

 At least Breza can lock down a job 

Did I say anything about Pantemis? I just said, implicitly, that Breza signing for a D4 team shows he's nowhere near national team level. Your argument/question regarding the suitability of Pantemis for the national team does not detract in the slightest from my statement. Breza is nowhere near ready.

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18 minutes ago, BCM1555362349 said:

Did I say anything about Pantemis? I just said, implicitly, that Breza signing for a D4 team shows he's nowhere near national team level. Your argument/question regarding the suitability of Pantemis for the national team does not detract in the slightest from my statement. Breza is nowhere near ready.

No but Pantemis has been called up a few times because he's young and someone thinks he has potential, but you have Breza who's was called to Serie A last year for a month to backup, he played well in the youth league in Italy and just because he went to the Serie D to get playing time, witch is very common for young players in Italy to do because of a lack of a youth system/development league, you say he's not ready ? But Pantemis is? Who has played only 2 games in USL for the former FC Montreal? 

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4 hours ago, BCM1555362349 said:

Did I say anything about Pantemis? I just said, implicitly, that Breza signing for a D4 team shows he's nowhere near national team level. Your argument/question regarding the suitability of Pantemis for the national team does not detract in the slightest from my statement. Breza is nowhere near ready.

Piette was playing for the national team when he was playing in Spanish D4. We also took players from the bottom club of Spanish D4 to our recent friendlies in Qatar, u-23 I guess. It is not a matter of the division, strictly speaking, it is a matter of what the coach thinks. 

But I agree that, in principle, when choosing senior NT players, you have to look a bit higher, the quality of Italian or Spanish lower tiers notwithstanding. 

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10 hours ago, BCM1555362349 said:

And yet some among us are calling for him to be included in the squad for the El Salvador game... Reality check. One. Two.

Serie D has many teams who were previously even in Serie A. Como, Messina and Varesa as well as many teams who have reached the heights of Serie B. Italy and Spain's 4th and 5th divisions are of a higher level or equal in quality to the USL.

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5 minutes ago, TFC2017 said:

Serie D has many teams who were previously even in Serie A. Como, Messina and Varesa as well as many teams who have reached the heights of Serie B. Italy and Spain's 4th and 5th divisions are of a higher level or equal in quality to the USL.

When I watched USL this summer, all I thought was how much less pressure there was on the ball defenisvely, it was soft, players had time. They also seemed to be pacing themselves for long spells--or coasting. Spanish 2B, or third tier, has a higher pace and defensive mentality, more pressure on the ball, sharper overall sense of tactics, and better decision making. It is not pretty, because your rival does not let you get fancy. 

 

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8 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

When I watched USL this summer, all I thought was how much less pressure there was on the ball defenisvely, it was soft, players had time. They also seemed to be pacing themselves for long spells--or coasting. Spanish 2B, or third tier, has a higher pace and defensive mentality, more pressure on the ball, sharper overall sense of tactics, and better decision making. It is not pretty, because your rival does not let you get fancy. 

 

That's true. But in defence of this NA trait, these guys are traveling long distances and playing two games a week quite a bit of the time. Players in England complain about Ipswich to Sheffield, but that's nothing with what the USL players face. And it's not luxury travel.


In regards to level and players, I'm okay with specialist players coming from this level occasionally to fill a need, but I hardly think that's the case with a keeper. Keepers peak much later anyway, and a keeper with no pro match experience prior to signing with D4 Italy. No thanks.

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15 hours ago, TFC2017 said:

Serie D has many teams who were previously even in Serie A. Como, Messina and Varesa as well as many teams who have reached the heights of Serie B. Italy and Spain's 4th and 5th divisions are of a higher level or equal in quality to the USL.

I think among the non-academy teams (and that's really what they are, unfortunately) I'd say there's 5-9 players per team that would laugh at the suggestion of moving to Spain/Italy 4th or 5th tier - and if they did so would be taking a more than 50% pay cut. Case in point, Jamaica had at least three players on its Gold Cup roster from USL. Remove those 5-9 players, and then those levels may be on par.

I can't say that I have seen much 4th and 5th tier football in Spain and Italy, but just that a lot of USL players would see it as a drop, and their bank account would certainly drop.

PS - there's a lot of former Premier and 1st (2nd) division English clubs in Conference and League 2 now - doesn't mean that they're still good! Yeovil Town was in the Championship in 2014 and now in Conference. Swindon and Oldham were Premier League teams - what does it mean now? Nothing.

Edited by BCM
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1 hour ago, BCM1555362349 said:

I think among the non-academy teams (and that's really what they are, unfortunately) I'd say there's 5-9 players per team that would laugh at the suggestion of moving to Spain/Italy 4th or 5th tier - and if they did so would be taking a more than 50% pay cut. Case in point, Jamaica had at least three players on its Gold Cup roster from USL. Remove those 5-9 players, and then those levels may be on par.

I can't say that I have seen much 4th and 5th tier football in Spain and Italy, but just that a lot of USL players would see it as a drop, and their bank account would certainly drop.

PS - there's a lot of former Premier and 1st (2nd) division English clubs in Conference and League 2 now - doesn't mean that they're still good! Yeovil Town was in the Championship in 2014 and now in Conference. Swindon and Oldham were Premier League teams - what does it mean now? Nothing.

From what I have read USL salaries might average around 2000 US a month, with some teams paying 2-3 grand a month. Only for the season and preseaon, so a few months without pay. Often including housing. There is no minimum, so many could be making less. That is similar to 2B in Spain. 

It is only worth seeking out chances in Europe, in all lower tiers but especially-Spain, if 

-you have an EU passport and can live and work freely where you want. 

-you are young and believe you have a real chance to rise and improve your status, or want the competitive experience. 

-you happen to latch onto a stronger club that can pay a bit better and aspires to promotion; or if it is a B team of a higher level club.

-you happen to have some reason for being in that place, like having family nearby, or can even work in something else part time to compensate. 

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15 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

From what I have read USL salaries might average around 2000 US a month, with some teams paying 2-3 grand a month. Only for the season and preseaon, so a few months without pay. Often including housing. There is no minimum, so many could be making less. That is similar to 2B in Spain. 

It is only worth seeking out chances in Europe, in all lower tiers but especially-Spain, if 

-you have an EU passport and can live and work freely where you want. 

-you are young and believe you have a real chance to rise and improve your status, or want the competitive experience. 

-you happen to latch onto a stronger club that can pay a bit better and aspires to promotion; or if it is a B team of a higher level club.

-you happen to have some reason for being in that place, like having family nearby, or can even work in something else part time to compensate. 

Again, for those 5-9 (experienced) players I mentioned I think you'll find the salary is higher - and much higher than in the lower leagues of Spain and Italy (if what you quoted earlier in a different thread for Piette was in the ballpark). For the young player on the bench, lower than the average you mentioned. The USL is weird that way, a mix of experienced professional with out of their depth youth, and some in between.

But otherwise, I like your assessment. If you are young, ambitious, have an EU passport and can connect with a strong club a good lower league in Europe seems the better option.

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21 hours ago, BCM1555362349 said:

I think among the non-academy teams (and that's really what they are, unfortunately) I'd say there's 5-9 players per team that would laugh at the suggestion of moving to Spain/Italy 4th or 5th tier - and if they did so would be taking a more than 50% pay cut. Case in point, Jamaica had at least three players on its Gold Cup roster from USL. Remove those 5-9 players, and then those levels may be on par.

I can't say that I have seen much 4th and 5th tier football in Spain and Italy, but just that a lot of USL players would see it as a drop, and their bank account would certainly drop.

PS - there's a lot of former Premier and 1st (2nd) division English clubs in Conference and League 2 now - doesn't mean that they're still good! Yeovil Town was in the Championship in 2014 and now in Conference. Swindon and Oldham were Premier League teams - what does it mean now? Nothing.

I guess that goes both ways though. I'm sure 5-9 players would laugh if they were asked to go to the USL. 

If you take the best teams against the best and the worst teams against the worst then I'd give the advantage to the 4th and 5th tiers of Spain and Italy. Of course the best teams in USL would do well in these divisions but I doubt that they'd win it. 

 

This is all a matter of opinion because there have been no games to suggest who is stronger. 

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Just to be clear, 2B is one thing in Spain, fourth tier Tercera quite another. One offers living salaries and is professional, the other means basically just speculating on your future with no immediate dividends.

Like in other lower tiers, the teams with big stadiums, aspiring to promote, with a fan base and sponsors, can pay more. But that is like 10% of the 80 teams in Spanish 2B, the rest are modest. An example, don't know if I ever posted this: I saw a stat on twitter references to the 80 teams in 2B last year, Extremadura, where Hume was, in the top 5, they have followers around the world, and were getting over 5000 out to games and late in the season even more. Izarra, Piette's team, was fourth from the bottom in social media interest, they have no proper web, no community manager, nothing, they are bare bones. I don't think they ever got a thousand out to a game. This is why I emphasized what Piette was doing with that team, just staying in the category. Watch them this year (Aparicio): I think they'll relegate.

But let's be honest, until MLS raised their minimum wages only a few years ago, there were players having problems paying their bills who could not save at all (in 2008 it was at 33 grand, with some developmental players making a thousand a month), alongside the high-priced DPs. Now that has changed, because up to less than a decade ago it was shameful.

Edited by Unnamed Trialist
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Higher salary in this case doesn't necessarily mean higher level of play of the league when it comes to comparing with d4 spain or italy. There are many reasons why the salary is higher. 360+ teams in d4 spain with 122 teams above… Saying those usl players are of higher level means they are at least d3. First, even if 5-10 players on half of the teams are of higher level it doesn't mean that the league is of higher level. There could be plenty of players in d4 spain who could play higher. Then, take a team and identify those 5 players. Take Louisville City who are currently first in the east and have no affiliation with an mls team. Which 5 players would be starters in a d3 out there… Del Piccolo was a d4 sub in germany, Craig played d6 in england, Lancaster a d4 and d6 sub england before coming and has 6 usl goals this season…Unfortunately a lot of overestimating pro leagues here and not understanding that the level of training and development is much much higher there which means that even lower leagues are of high quality

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