The Floro Bandwagon

[Keegan]

Just thought I should say that you are severely underrating Venezuela if you think they're clearly not better then us. On paper/player pool it's obvious and recent results from the last 2 copa americas show they're on the upward even if they didn't do that well this year. I would also trade 3 clubs that if you bombined all together would not be able to form a full 23 canadian roster over an actual league filled with native players like the countries you mentioned above. 

 

Venezuela is clearly better than us and an example we should follow, I should have excluded them but included them late in my edit as an example of a team with a similar talent pool that has had success.  It seemed we were both on the come-up in 2007 when we faced in a friendly with us having the edge in top-end talent arguably but since then they've really progressed.  

 

As for the 3 clubs, you're absolutely right but I'm looking at the potential.  Our 3 clubs are bigger than any clubs in Venezuela as evidenced by the star power they can attract, I think the academies of these clubs are poised to produce more stars than the academy of Caracas for example. 

[king1010]

One thing this team can do is play together more. This has always been an issue, the team should be playing on way more friendly dates.

We play on every fifa international date. This has been the case for a number of years now and has been one of the improvements the csa had made.

[jonovision]

We play on every fifa international date. This has been the case for a number of years now and has been one of the improvements the csa had made.

 

On most occasions, the FIFA window leaves room for two friendlies. We normally play one. But this is, as you say, an improvement.

[koolvid]

Venezuela is clearly better than us and an example we should follow, I should have excluded them but included them late in my edit as an example of a team with a similar talent pool that has had success.  It seemed we were both on the come-up in 2007 when we faced in a friendly with us having the edge in top-end talent arguably but since then they've really progressed.  

 

As for the 3 clubs, you're absolutely right but I'm looking at the potential.  Our 3 clubs are bigger than any clubs in Venezuela as evidenced by the star power they can attract, I think the academies of these clubs are poised to produce more stars than the academy of Caracas for example. 

Not sure, since it's no doubt Caracas plays strictly native players while toronto only has a handful starting and on the bench. That being said I'll take 18 team league over 3 clubs in potentially producing talent, especially when all 18 clubs play more native players than all our 3 by miles. Bringing star talent doesn't mean much imo in producing talent, it's putting money into the academies that's most important, and that's what venezuela is doing. Like big clubs in england buy from smaller clubs like their some feeder clubs. The small clubs can't afford to spend on big players so they rely a lot on producing young talent themselves through their academies. eg: wayne rooney with mid table everton then off to big club MUFC and bale back when southampton was a perennial bottom to mid table club then off to the spurs. 

[king1010]

On most occasions, the FIFA window leaves room for two friendlies. We normally play one. But this is, as you say, an improvement.

You're right about that. Consensus on here was that an extra few days of training in national team camp were more beneficial than a second friendly.

[Obinna]

Just thought I should say that you are severely underrating Venezuela if you think they're clearly not better then us. On paper/player pool it's obvious and recent results from the last 2 copa americas show they're on the upward even if they didn't do that well this year. I would also trade 3 clubs that if you bombined all together would not be able to form a full 23 canadian roster over an actual league filled with native players like the countries you mentioned above.

Off the top of my head:

Vizcarrondo - Nantes FC

Rondon- Zenit St. Petersburg

Rosales - Malaga

Rincon - Genoa

Arango - Tijuana

Amorbieta - Fulham

Miku - Real Vallecano

[Cheeta]

Going a bit sideways but since it's been mentioned, that is to say MLS in Canada, I promise if I win the lotto Friday Cheeta will be lawyering up to the eyeballs and will put a quick (and noisy) end to the discriminating employment practices of that business enterprise in this country.

See if I don't.

[Sébastien]

I was bitter after the Jamaica game, but I won't say I'm off the bandwagon yet. The roster choices leave me confused, but not the tactics. I understand the need to play defence-first. We don't have the skill not to do it. But I was hoping that either Teibert and/or Osorio would help things change a bit, as they are stable defensively and can both offer something going forward. Seeing Piette, who has a role to play but is unable to do much going forward, and Bekker who has always has difficulty retaining posession, makes it even more frustrating. Unlike others, I disagree with the Ricketts hate. I understand the criticism, but I don't think there's anyone else actually better. Jackson? I'm curious, but he's always been very poor for the CMNT. Awful even. The other remark is that when we do get the ball, I find we do not have a plan going forward. That's what is most frustrating. We know we'll get limited opportunities to create chances (nevermind actually getting one), so we should have a clear idea of what to do when it happens. Sadly, it really seems the only one in both games who has been able to create is Ricketts. And that's an indictment of our player pool more than anything else.

[Scorpion26]

One thing this team can do is play together more. This has always been an issue, the team should be playing on way more friendly dates.

That's what frustrates me the most the lack of friendly games. Every time there's a friendly they should be playing a game and at any chance they can play outside of friendlies too. B.Floro is the coach and will just have to wait and see if does in fact improve the team or not. Will be interesting to see the game tomorrow and I hope with it being a home game that Canada comes out with fire and go for it even if they have more of a defensive shape in the formation and the such.

[BearcatSA]

You're right about that. Consensus on here was that an extra few days of training in national team camp were more beneficial than a second friendly.

 

I'm guessing that was Floro's philosophy for awhile as well.

[One American]

When Piette manages to switch the point of attack, let me know.

[Keegan]

Not sure, since it's no doubt Caracas plays strictly native players while toronto only has a handful starting and on the bench. That being said I'll take 18 team league over 3 clubs in potentially producing talent, especially when all 18 clubs play more native players than all our 3 by miles. Bringing star talent doesn't mean much imo in producing talent, it's putting money into the academies that's most important, and that's what venezuela is doing. Like big clubs in england buy from smaller clubs like their some feeder clubs. The small clubs can't afford to spend on big players so they rely a lot on producing young talent themselves through their academies. eg: wayne rooney with mid table everton then off to big club MUFC and bale back when southampton was a perennial bottom to mid table club then off to the spurs. 

 

 

I guarantee you that our 3 MLS clubs put more into their academies than Venezuelan clubs.  Bringing star talent means a lot more than you think.. if you're a youth talent Venezuelan or Canadian and you get offered an academy spot at Caracas or Toronto FC which do you take?  It's a no brainer.  Not to mention that TFC has state of the art facilities and a 30,000 SSS.

 

That was my point, but of course like you said Venezuela has an 18 team domestic league that plays 90% Venezuelan talent, really impressive.  Hopefully in a few years we can be at 12... we can't forget our 2 NASL squads either when we discuss "pro" teams, I'll stop at USL since that is a farm team basically.  

 

My original comment was that I wouldn't trade our pro clubs for Venezuelas and I stand by that.  If things stayed the same as they are now forever would I?  Yes.  But we have a lot more potential for growth than Venezuela at the domestic level simply because of $ and if/when we create a domestic league it'll be a no-brainer.  For now though our 3 MLS clubs are bigger than any Venezuelan clubs and despite not loading their rosters with Canadian talent our youth players should they make it get to play at a higher level than Venezuela.

[ted]

Going a bit sideways but since it's been mentioned, that is to say MLS in Canada, I promise if I win the lotto Friday Cheeta will be lawyering up to the eyeballs and will put a quick (and noisy) end to the discriminating employment practices of that business enterprise in this country.

 

For the amoiunt you would spend on the legal challenge you could almost start an MLS team and choose to sign only Canadians.

[mpg_29]

I guarantee you that our 3 MLS clubs put more into their academies than Venezuelan clubs.  Bringing star talent means a lot more than you think.. if you're a youth talent Venezuelan or Canadian and you get offered an academy spot at Caracas or Toronto FC which do you take?  It's a no brainer.  Not to mention that TFC has state of the art facilities and a 30,000 SSS.

 

That was my point, but of course like you said Venezuela has an 18 team domestic league that plays 90% Venezuelan talent, really impressive.  Hopefully in a few years we can be at 12... we can't forget our 2 NASL squads either when we discuss "pro" teams, I'll stop at USL since that is a farm team basically.  

 

My original comment was that I wouldn't trade our pro clubs for Venezuelas and I stand by that.  If things stayed the same as they are now forever would I?  Yes.  But we have a lot more potential for growth than Venezuela at the domestic level simply because of $ and if/when we create a domestic league it'll be a no-brainer.  For now though our 3 MLS clubs are bigger than any Venezuelan clubs and despite not loading their rosters with Canadian talent our youth players should they make it get to play at a higher level than Venezuela.

 

It would be nice if cities like Calgary and Winnipeg got NASL teams.  Even Halifax should have either a USL(although is this league exclusively farm teams now?) or NASL side as a lot of athletes in Atlantic Canada often get overlooked IMO simply because the population is so spread out and far away from the rest of Canada.  A team based in Halifax that could pull that talent together and showcase it would be great.

 

That being said I am a bit more skeptical that MLS is going to be as good for Canadian players as people make it out to be.  A lot of good international players are more likely to move to and play in Europe and North America than other parts of the world and if the MLS keeps improving and the international recognition expands, salary cap expands etc...MLS owners will want the best product on the field there is going to be a lot of competition for domestic players to get regular playing minutes.  I don't think countries like Venezuela have or will have the same problem.  

 

So for me it's ensuring the success of the tier 2 and tier 3 soccer in Canada that will help the most with Canadian players.

[xcalibre]

Since day 1 I've been saying that the CSA got sold on a "name" despite Floro having no international experience and limited CONCACAF experience (Monterrey fans will tell you he was a joke down there, 1 playoff appearance in 3 years).

 

El Salvador got a slightly younger coach from Spain, looking like a far better appointment.  Piette and Aleman weren't even born when Floro was coaching Real for f***'s sake...  his tactics and (presumably) his man-management style are decades old.  Hell, even T&T appear to have made a better appointment than we did, and that's with the guy who took us to an 8-1 loss!

[ted]

... is this league (USL) exclusively farm teams now?

 

No it is not, although according to Wikipedia only three are unaffiliated currently. It is has also announced plans to apply for sanctioning as a D2 league.

[jonovision]

I'm not going to weigh in on Floro other than to say that he is more organized than our previous coach.

 

The problem for me with heaping the lion's share of the blame on the manager is that it absolves the players. Forgive me if I'm naive, but I don't think one or two player selection switches will turn this team from one that played close with some of CONCACAF's middle powers to one that challenges the top 4. Players that have been expected to do much of the heavy lifting at the attacking end, which is where Floro seems to come in for the most criticism, have been almost universally poor, with new whipping boy Tosaint Ricketts the least disappointing of the front three. Some of this comes down to tactics, but players need to perform and execute and ultimately must be held accountable.

 

The lack of performance and accountability from players, moreso than management, has been Canada's biggest issue for the last 15 years. I see no reason to let them off the hook now.

 

I also see no reason to pitch Floro overboard on the basis of two losses in a tournament we all knew was not a priority, especially as reviews were almost overwhelmingly favourable up until last week.

 

I also don't want to live in a world where Canadian fans somehow think Jonathan Osorio is a saviour of some sort, as that is a world that doesn't make any sense and doesn't know up from down.

[Keegan]

Since day 1 I've been saying that the CSA got sold on a "name" despite Floro having no international experience and limited CONCACAF experience (Monterrey fans will tell you he was a joke down there, 1 playoff appearance in 3 years).

 

El Salvador got a slightly younger coach from Spain, looking like a far better appointment.  Piette and Aleman weren't even born when Floro was coaching Real for f***'s sake...  his tactics and (presumably) his man-management style are decades old.  Hell, even T&T appear to have made a better appointment than we did, and that's with the guy who took us to an 8-1 loss!

 

What is the common denominator there though?  Our players.  It was our guys who lost 8-1 in Honduras and it's our guys who who haven't scored a goal from open play in the Gold Cup in 3 tournaments.  It should come as no surprise that most of our players aside from a few aren't rated at all by their clubs/supporters in Europe.  We have guys who can't even hold down jobs at 3rd division clubs.

[Free kick]

We are a team of supporting cast role players.

Yes. It's a national team of squad players who can fill certain roles.. In many cases they are character players who offer great leadership. But there is no one who can influence a game. We have been seeing it for years in matches where everybody is wait or looking for sombody else to do something. These are symptoms is div 2-3 players and for too long, we have thought that this was sufficient. But it's not.

[jonovision]

Yes. It's a national team of squad players who can fill certain roles.. In many cases they are character players who offer great leadership. But there is no one who can influence a game. We have been seeing it for years in matches where everybody is wait or looking for sombody else to do something. These are symptoms is div 2-3 players and for too long, we have thought that this was sufficient. But it's not.

 

Yes. So much this.

 

That is why this team misses Atiba so much, as he is a guy that doesn't seem to fear the responsibility of influencing the game. And even he is a role player for his club, not the straw that stirs the drink.

[BearcatSA]

Yes. It's a national team of squad players who can fill certain roles.. In many cases they are character players who offer great leadership. But there is no one who can influence a game. We have been seeing it for years in matches where everybody is wait or looking for sombody else to do something. These are symptoms is div 2-3 players and for too long, we have thought that this was sufficient. But it's not.

 

 

Yes. So much this.

 

That is why this team misses Atiba so much, as he is a guy that doesn't seem to fear the responsibility of influencing the game. And even he is a role player for his club, not the straw that stirs the drink.

 

My exact sentiments as well.  

 

So, as sometimes happens with this team, we'll probably win tonight's game in convincing fashion and everybody here will be talking about what a master class it was in so many areas.

[Ruud]

Truth be told, we've not had a feared player since Radzinski.  

 

Hutch is clutch, but I agree he's not driving the bus.  But he would have been a difference maker in this tournament.

 

I think that we've put this topic to bed until after tonight.  CONCACAF threw us a bone with this home game.  Let's see if we can use it to our advantage.  

[reme90]

What is the common denominator there though?  Our players.  It was our guys who lost 8-1 in Honduras and it's our guys who who haven't scored a goal from open play in the Gold Cup in 3 tournaments.  It should come as no surprise that most of our players aside from a few aren't rated at all by their clubs/supporters in Europe.  We have guys who can't even hold down jobs at 3rd division clubs.

I think this is where I fall into as well, I blame the players. Looking at these two games, we underestimated El Salvador's quality and while I hated Bekker before it was cool, we did just as well as Costa Rica did against them.

The Jamaica game, was more of the same, but you can tell Floro was furious with how the team was executing his plan. He turned to veterans and they disappointed.

In both games Canada had CLEAR OPEN opportunities to score. Golden chances that you would lambast your U11 players for missing. Larin missed the first which would have won us the game. Then Ricketts needed a simple pass to Larin to put away Jamaica. At best we would be sitting with 6 points and at worst with 4points had players taken their chances.

Floro, is not without blame, but something my wife asked is, "is this really the best 23 players we have?" And quite frankly it is. Yes Hutch, Will Johnson, Borjan and Henry would have helped solidify the spine of the team, but truthfully speaking, what can you expect from a manager when his players refuse to score open netters???

I'll be at the game tonight and be cheering these boys on with my 3 sons and hoping they can one day lead this nation out of purgatory, but deep down inside, I know that although Costa Rica is a winnable game, we have no killers on our team.

 

[1Knight]

What is the common denominator there though?  Our players.  It was our guys who lost 8-1 in Honduras and it's our guys who who haven't scored a goal from open play in the Gold Cup in 3 tournaments.  It should come as no surprise that most of our players aside from a few aren't rated at all by their clubs/supporters in Europe.  We have guys who can't even hold down jobs at 3rd division clubs.

 

^^This. No matter which we slice it for repeated cycles our players have not got it done and I think it could be strongly argued that the talent in our player pool has declined. I have to agree with jonovision that although Floro has frustrated many with his squad selection we can't be under the impression that the inclusion of an Osorio, Teibert, or even Hutch will elevate us to a top 6 team in CONCACAF. 

[Keegan]

Yes. It's a national team of squad players who can fill certain roles.. In many cases they are character players who offer great leadership. But there is no one who can influence a game. We have been seeing it for years in matches where everybody is wait or looking for sombody else to do something. These are symptoms is div 2-3 players and for too long, we have thought that this was sufficient. But it's not.

 

That's why we really miss DeRosario.  He may have fallen flat a few times but he was always trying to make things happen for us.  When he got the ball you got excited because you knew he had so many tools, same with Simpson or Hutchinson.  The same can't be said for our current team.

 

We are really, really unlucky as well.  We all look in awe at Panama as a great team that we aspire to be but honestly did they have to lose their 2 best players to injury?  If Blas Perez was to suffer a career ending injury before 2014 qualifying do they advance ahead of us?  Or if they were to miss Tejada, Penedo and Perez (as we're missing Borjan, Hutchinson, Johnson (and in 2014 WCQ DeRo and Simpson)) what would that look like?