The Floro Bandwagon

[BearcatSA]

After finally watching these two matches, I'll throw in my two bits of armchair analysis about Floro's tactics for anyone to take with a grain or block of salt.  I wonder what would happen if Hoillet was give more flexibility to switch flanks?  I mean, if you want to lessen the offensive threat of the impressive LB, Layun, put our best one v one wing threat against him and force him to stay back and do some actual defending,

After the Vancouver match Hutchinson should have called his lawyer to sue his central midfield partners for lack of support.  As was mentioned by Unnamed Trialist, they were poor as a unit and contributed to the problems for an already dodgy back line.  In the Azteca match it was clear that it was keep-the-score-down mentality of not getting caught up, gap and space control, with Ledgerwood working as quasi-RB primarily to shadow Layun.  I wonder if the same strategy and personnel will be used in Honduras or will Senor be bold and start Arfield and Hoillet on the wings?  Or does he save that starting combo for the ES game at home?

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

Tortuga is meaningless, guys, you may find it funny but it makes no sense at all in Spanish. 

Anyways, look at the chances we blew that first game vs. Mexico, and have blown every game under Floro pretty well, and you see that the concept is not even applicable. 

Now if you can think of an animal who is unable to get fellow members of his species to do something when needed, even when it is his proper and natural task, then name Floro that.

One idea that comes to me and that I deal with every day is "parent".

[Yohan]

I kinda understand Floro's thinking. I think he thinks Canada just don't have the talent pool to play a style that's solid defensively and can score goals. Feels like you can either go all defence or all attack, not both. 

I kinda agree with him. Esp considering how poor our defenders are.

[AvroArrow]

I'll say this:  In most of the Gold Cup and World Cup qualifying games, we have had glorious chances to score and have finished poorly.  In a large number of those chances, our shots were laughably bad as they sailed over the net.

I would imagine Floro's thinking is this:  We are not going to beat teams 3-0, nor are we going to outgun them in a 4-3 slugfest.  If we are going to win, it will likely be 1-0.  So if that is the case, you build a solid defensive team and then you HAVE to capitalize on one of the 2 or 3 chances that you get during the game.  With the exception of the 1st Mexico game, our defensive play has been solid (take out the Mexico games and we've only given up 1 goal in the past 5 Gold Cup/World Cup qualifying matches).  The problem, as always, is we can't score.  Floro can't make Larin or Hoilet hit the net when they are under very little pressure in the 18 yard box.

[BearcatSA]

21 minutes ago, AvroArrow said:

I'll say this:  In most of the Gold Cup and World Cup qualifying games, we have had glorious chances to score and have finished poorly.  In a large number of those chances, our shots were laughably bad as they sailed over the net.

Something's gotta give.  It has to give because if it doesn't, we're probably not going through on two scoreless draws without help from the Mexicans in the last game.

34 minutes ago, Yohan said:

I kinda agree with him. Esp considering how poor our defenders are.

The midfield play on Friday night, as a unit, was also contributing factor in the team defensive break downs.  Much more compact and supporting on Tuesday evening.

[Moldy9]

1 hour ago, Yohan said:

I kinda understand Floro's thinking. I think he thinks Canada just don't have the talent pool to play a style that's solid defensively and can score goals. Feels like you can either go all defence or all attack, not both. 

I kinda agree with him. Esp considering how poor our defenders are.

I agree but to just have 10 men sit back and not make a transition or have the boys waste set plays free kicks and corners that's him that comes up with those tactics. 

Holger Osieck might have came to the same conclusion as Floro but at least he was smart enough to realize you just can't sit deep in your court and expect to get a result. With Holger at least we countered and made use of our corner kicks. He did that with a less talented offense than what we have right now at Floro's disposal. 

[Vince193]

30 minutes ago, Moldy9 said:

I agree but to just have 10 men sit back and not make a transition or have the boys waste set plays free kicks and corners that's him that comes up with those tactics. 

Holger Osieck might have came to the same conclusion as Floro but at least he was smart enough to realize you just can't sitInsert other media deep in your court and expect to get a result. With Holger at least we countered and made use of our corner kicks. He did that with a less talented offense than what we have right now at Floro's disposal. 

That was so frustrating. All those short corners and free kicks led to nothing.

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

 I wonder if the same strategy and personnel will be used in Honduras or will Senor be bold and start Arfield and Hoillet on the wings?  Or does he save that starting combo for the ES game at home?

Actually in Spain they say "el Mister" referring to the coach. 

Pretty sure we will try to rob a result in Honduras same way we always do, but that does not rule out Arfield and Hoillet if they understand they have to work defensively.

[BearcatSA]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Actually in Spain they say "el Mister" referring to the coach. 

That sounds even better!

[nolbertos]

12 hours ago, Moldy9 said:

I agree but to just have 10 men sit back and not make a transition or have the boys waste set plays free kicks and corners that's him that comes up with those tactics. 

Holger Osieck might have came to the same conclusion as Floro but at least he was smart enough to realize you just can't sit deep in your court and expect to get a result. With Holger at least we countered and made use of our corner kicks. He did that with a less talented offense than what we have right now at Floro's disposal. 

You know as time keeps flying high, Holger's legacy is growing to the point that he may have been Canada's best coach, at least after Lenarduzzi on getting results with what little players he had at his disposal compared to Floro and others.  Holger didn't have an MLS, NASl and USL team players to draw from.  He had to rely on Unattached FC, some 2nd div. players and journeyman to make Canada competitive.  I think Holger countered well and defended well.  People keep saying we need to better defend, but over the last 5 WCQ cycles, all Canada has ever done is defend.  No-one really played all attacking or counter attacked effectively save Holger durinf the Gold Cup run. He didn't play to lose, he played for opportunities and counter.  Floro is playing for the tie 90% or lose minimal and 10% to win.  I honestly rather Canada learn how to attack, as what have we got to lose, that we haven't tried in the last 15 years??

[Vince193]

8 hours ago, nolbertos said:

You know as time keeps flying high, Holger's legacy is growing to the point that he may have been Canada's best coach, at least after Lenarduzzi on getting results with what little players he had at his disposal compared to Floro and others.  Holger didn't have an MLS, NASl and USL team players to draw from.  He had to rely on Unattached FC, some 2nd div. players and journeyman to make Canada competitive.  I think Holger countered well and defended well.  People keep saying we need to better defend, but over the last 5 WCQ cycles, all Canada has ever done is defend.  No-one really played all attacking or counter attacked effectively save Holger durinf the Gold Cup run. He didn't play to lose, he played for opportunities and counter.  Floro is playing for the tie 90% or lose minimal and 10% to win.  I honestly rather Canada learn how to attack, as what have we got to lose, that we haven't tried in the last 15 years??

all we are seeing at this point is that we can't defend for 90 minutes. Floro's tactics have worked against poor teams but against quality we struggle. It doesn't help that he doesn't put out an optimal XI. 

[Grizzly]

On 4/3/2016 at 3:45 AM, nolbertos said:

You know as time keeps flying high, Holger's legacy is growing to the point that he may have been Canada's best coach, at least after Lenarduzzi on getting results with what little players he had at his disposal compared to Floro and others.  Holger didn't have an MLS, NASl and USL team players to draw from.  He had to rely on Unattached FC, some 2nd div. players and journeyman to make Canada competitive.  I think Holger countered well and defended well.  People keep saying we need to better defend, but over the last 5 WCQ cycles, all Canada has ever done is defend.  No-one really played all attacking or counter attacked effectively save Holger durinf the Gold Cup run. He didn't play to lose, he played for opportunities and counter.  Floro is playing for the tie 90% or lose minimal and 10% to win.  I honestly rather Canada learn how to attack, as what have we got to lose, that we haven't tried in the last 15 years??

This is inaccurate revisionist history. Lenarduzzi was a horrible coach, poor tactics, lots of politics and unprofessionalism and favouritism. Yeah we came close to qualifying under him but it was mostly because we had a lot of good players still around from the Canadian Soccer League and pretty decent talent compared to the level of CONCACAF at the time. I remember Lenarduzzi's reign as being a total shit show. I do agree Osieck was our 2nd best coach in history though as I would put Waiters as our best coach. He was an excellent coach, very professional, fair with the players, knew how to maximize the players strengths and weaknesses and how to come up with tactics that fit the squad. If you listen to him talk today still very knowledgeable about the game and has great insights.

I like Osieck and think he was our 2nd best coach and a good hire at the time. But we played horrible soccer to watch under him, defensive with zero creativity, complete negative soccer. I am not criticizing him for doing this either given the players he had but if people are bitching at Floro for being defensive and "turtling", Holger was 10 times worse. But he did have some success playing like this and was a high level coach who did leave a legacy with the players and the system that unfortunately was not built on. Our mistake was not in firing Osieck, his reign had run its course. Our mistake was not hiring someone comparable but different to replace him. Nevertheless, while Yallop in my opinion was our worst coach ever but I can understand the hiring, a Canadian who was probably cheap and who we overvalued his success in MLS. But then going back and doing the same thing over, ie. hiring 2 more cheap underqualified Canadian coaches (not sure if Hart ever got his citizenship but he was Canada based) , was unacceptable. None of these 3 coaches really built much as far as the program was concerned or helped our players develop, for the most part they were poorer quality coaches than the players had at their clubs.

Floro may not be our ideal coach and there are things he does that I don't agree with but he is still a big upgrade over the last 3 coaches. We are well structured under him, have not given up a lot of goals other than against Mexico and our players are benefiting from the training they are doing under him. I feel a lot better about this team getting a result in Honduras than I did when Hart was in charge. And while it is fine to criticize Floro, this defeatism and over the top criticism is ridiculous and based on a lot of ignorance in my opinion. 2-0 and 3-0 loses against an in form Mexico in a good generation is pretty much what could be expected. We would probably get the same result under Sir Alex. And coaches always look better when they have good players and worse when they have poor players. People keep talking about us having a better team but based on what? We have one top level player in Hutchison. We might be able to add Hoilett and Arfield to that list but they are both new with the team and incidentally were also recruited by Floro. Other than that the only improvements in the team have been in mediocre depth players of which we have a lot more but none are top quality. If someone is injured or unavailable it does not hurt us as much as before but the quality has not really improved. We still do not have a striker who is able to finish which has plagued our team for a long time. Yes Larin is scoring in MLS but he is not doing it for the national team despite having some very good chances. We see him mostly from highlights in MLS except when he is playing against one of our teams and I highly suspect that if we were watching his complete games regularly that he is missing a lot of chances in MLS too but it is ok because he gets enough chances unlike with the national team where he gets 1 or 2 chances and is expected to score. And I personally would have started Edgar but lets be realistic, he is a guy who had a cup of coffee in the EPL, was mostly a sub in the Championship and is now a starter in the 3rd tier. He is not that great either and not a no-brainer over Straith who played well in previous games and has also played at pretty high level even if he is not playing in a great league now (he likely got a contract he couldn't refuse, sometimes there is money in lower divisions especially from a big team trying to promote)  or James who I think played at least as well as we could have expected from Edgar. We are not talking about Yallop playing 17 year old Peters and 100 year old Corrazin :-) And we don't even have one real right back playing at any decent level. Maybe Henry was not the best choice but there was no good choice at this position. And if anyone thinks Osorio would be a difference maker they are dreaming, he is good at controlling the ball to get to the offence zone and once he gets there he has no clue what to do or how to break through, a classic flaw in Canadian players. Personally I would still call him but I don't think we are hurt very much by his absence either. The only possible difference maker I can see would be Occean but I suspect there is a lot more to that story than we know.

I think Floro has brought a lot to the program and we are a tie in Honduras away from qualification assuming there are no unexpected results. I think his hiring was a step in the right direction and he was the best level of coach we could afford/attract at that time. If we get eliminated from WCQ in this round we should try and upgrade on Floro, if we make the Hex possibly as well but until then I think we can criticize but this crazy negativity is not productive or very well thought out at all. I think it is crucial we always hire  the highest level coaches we can. That does not mean we will always qualify with such coaches, Osieck did not get us through WCQ either. But a high level coach will at least teach the players and build the system and I think Floro has done a good job of that as compared to the last 3 in my opinion "amateur level" coaches.

[The Ref]

^ you made a good defense of Floro and I enjoyed reading it.  In case you may know, I would like to know what it was that Floro promised when he was hired as that to me is a base upon which to judge him.

[BearcatSA]

4 hours ago, Grizzly said:

 People keep talking about us having a better team but based on what? We have one top level player in Hutchison. We might be able to add Hoilett and Arfield to that list but they are both new with the team and incidentally were also recruited by Floro. Other than that the only improvements in the team have been in mediocre depth players of which we have a lot more but none are top quality. If someone is injured or unavailable it does not hurt us as much as before but the quality has not really improved.

He knows he has a pool of role players and works with them accordingly.  There seems to be more of a club side mentality with emphasis on guys who follow the tactical approach, regardless of an individual player's league or club situation.  And, to his credit, in the return match in Mexico he made necessary changes to personnel and got an improved performance.

I wonder if any significant additions or subtractions in personnel will happen for September.  Or does he stand pat?  

 

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

3 weeks away from the Honduras games, how do all of you feel about Floro?

Recent article from Capitaine Soccer about Wandrille Lefèvre but sheds some light on Floroball:
http://capitainesoccer.net/2016/08/11/linternational-qui-ne-pensait-jamais-devenir-pro/

Cinq ans dans un même club, avec ses habitudes, ses façons de faire, ses principes et ses concepts. De quoi être déstabilisé en arrivant dans l’entourage de l’équipe nationale. « Avec Benito (Floro), c’est très professionnel, très tactique, très pensé, mais c’est une philosophie complètement différente de ce qu’on retrouve à l’Impact, explique Lefèvre. Quand j’arrive en équipe nationale après avoir passé beaucoup de temps avec l’Impact, c’est un vrai renouveau, un vrai challenge, ça n’a rien à voir avec la manière dont on me demande de défendre ici. C’est un système différent et une manière différente de penser. Ça ajoute à mon profil de joueur. » Par exemple, la manière dont Floro demande à sa ligne défensive de bouger est bien différente de ce qu’on exige des défenseurs à Montréal. « À l’Impact, j’ai la liberté de regarder à droite et à gauche, pour voir où sont mes coéquipiers et réajuster. En équipe nationale, non. Tu regardes devant toi. S’il (Floro) te voit regarder à droite ou à gauche, il arrête l’entraînement et il t’engueule! » Un exercice plutôt difficile en équipe nationale selon le principal intéressé, car il ne joue pas à l’année longue avec ses coéquipiers.
↑↑↑ What is Floro trying to instill in our defenders here?

[Grizzly]

I think Floro is probably wanting the defenders to maintain their shape and responsibility while the Impact is giving them more freedom to react. Given how well we have defended under Floro and how poor the Impact is defensively and how often Impact defenders are at places they should not be I would give Floro the benefit of the doubt here.

[Obinna]

I have become accustomed to us not holding a high line on free kicks. Holding a high line is how I grew up playing, and it is how I continue to play, but man have I been on the wrong end on some poor calls. Not saying it's all about the officials with Floro, but I have been personally burned on it so many times that I don't mind seeing something different. It hasn't screwed us over yet (knock on wood), so if it ain't broke don't fix it?

[jpg75]

The tunnel vision explains why our CB's get burned on runs through the channels (Ghana comes to mind).

Could also be why Edgar is not starting, ingrained habits are hard to shake for such a short amount of time and young defenders like Henry or James may be able to shake them off more easily.

[BrennanFan]

Edgar's struggling in Vancouver seems to support Floros decision to drop him for the 11.  Then again, Edgar did so well at the Gold Cup with Jakovic.  The right decision may be unknowable. At least Floro has the balls to make tough, unpopular decisions. 

[ob1]

4 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

At least Floro has the balls to make tough, unpopular decisions. 

Yes, like having 6 defenders on the field.

[The Ref]

Floro should get some pointers from Herdman.

[toontownman]

Wait... people like Herdman again?

Lets hope we don't win either of our qualifiers, the board might melt.

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, toontownman said:

Wait... people like Herdman again?

Lets hope we don't win either of our qualifiers, the board might melt.

Actually, a draw in Honduras sets us up well to be able to draw El Salvador and go through. Not the kind of meltdown you are talking about I suppose....