Ranking our Central Defenders

[Northvansteve]

5 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Fury fans have disagreed with me in the past about TMG, but I thought he was really solid for Pacific last season. I hadn't seen much of him before that, but I'd place him alongside some of the other CBs I've seen live like Didic, Montgomery, Norman Jr, and Waterman

I overlooked TMG! Would agree with that grouping - Waterman perhaps top of that group. 

[costarg]

It's funny, a while back there were just no options for our challenging positions.  However at CB there are probably the most options and biggest competition for the two positions, just no one that clearly stands out from the crop. 

We know what the older guys bring, we've seen their upside as well as the downside.  It's up to the younger ones to really step up, earn some starts with their respective teams and take the CANMNT spots.  At the moment I give Miller and Cornelius the inside track on this one (Norman not too far off if he continues and develops in the CB role and promotes to a bigger league), however the competition seems fierce at their clubs, especially for Miller.

Even with the rust, I feel Ferreira's baseline is just so much higher than everyone else's.  The others have got to work, be fit and play regularly in order to be at the top of their games, however Ferreira just seems to have the natural instincts and pedigree, even with the rust and lack of fitness.  If he gets a team, plays a little and stays fit, he's in.

We're all pretty hard on Henry and his CANMNT track record, however we need to consider that not too long ago he'd be playing CANMNT and Whitecaps with no real help beside him.  Everything was on his shoulders.  No LB or RB quality and Cornelius was still very raw.  Now that we're better balanced, he might be able to be that guy West Ham rated highly.  However injuries and fitness always seem to be around the corner.

Vitoria was and probably is our best option, he also doesn't exactly instill confidence, however he seems to have the most stability at this point even with the lack of speed.

Jakovic, maybe we gave up on him too early?  Perhaps he showed poorly for the same reasons as Henry above?  Trying to do too much and too much pressure?  Seemed to deliver well for LAFC, and that was no average team.

Its hard to see any of the CPL guys lineup vs the tougher teams in CONCACAF.  Honestly, I just don't see it, they will get killed unless they play with tougher opponents regularly.

Sturing and Kennedy remain interesting options, they need to keep playing.

James - we know the deal, seems to have been labeled, hopefully he manages to turn that around, cause he's playing at a respectable level.

Edited April 1, 2021 by costarg

[VinceA]

2 hours ago, costarg said:

It's funny, a while back there were just no options for our challenging positions.  However at CB there are probably the most options and biggest competition for the two positions, just no one that clearly stands out from the crop. 

We know what the older guys bring, we've seen their upside as well as the downside.  It's up to the younger ones to really step up, earn some starts with their respective teams and take the CANMNT spots.  At the moment I give Miller and Cornelius the inside track on this one (Norman not too far off if he continues and develops in the CB role and promotes to a bigger league), however the competition seems fierce at their clubs, especially for Miller.

Even with the rust, I feel Ferreira's baseline is just so much higher than everyone else's.  The others have got to work, be fit and play regularly in order to be at the top of their games, however Ferreira just seems to have the natural instincts and pedigree, even with the rust and lack of fitness.  If he gets a team, plays a little and stays fit, he's in.

We're all pretty hard on Henry and his CANMNT track record, however we need to consider that not too long ago he'd be playing CANMNT and Whitecaps with no real help beside him.  Everything was on his shoulders.  No LB or RB quality and Cornelius was still very raw.  Now that we're better balanced, he might be able to be that guy West Ham rated highly.  However injuries and fitness always seem to be around the corner.

Vitoria was and probably is our best option, he also doesn't exactly instill confidence, however he seems to have the most stability at this point even with the lack of speed.

Jakovic, maybe we gave up on him too early?  Perhaps he showed poorly for the same reasons as Henry above?  Trying to do too much and too much pressure?  Seemed to deliver well for LAFC, and that was no average team.

Its hard to see any of the CPL guys lineup vs the tougher teams in CONCACAF.  Honestly, I just don't see it, they will get killed unless they play with tougher opponents regularly.

Sturing and Kennedy remain interesting options, they need to keep playing.

James - we know the deal, seems to have been labeled, hopefully he manages to turn that around, cause he's playing at a respectable level.

Ferreira literally played one game against the Cayman Islands. If you were right about his baseline he wouldn't have been cut by Farense, who is fighting relegation in Portugal.

[Obinna]

30 minutes ago, VinceA said:

Ferreira literally played one game against the Cayman Islands. If you were right about his baseline he wouldn't have been cut by Farense, who is fighting relegation in Portugal.

Perhaps he just wasn't the right fit for Farense, or perhaps he wasn't as healthy as he is right now. I know it's one game against a very weak team, but he looked very good on the ball at least. Suriname will be a better gauge if he's chosen to play. 

[Ivan]

14 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Perhaps he just wasn't the right fit for Farense, or perhaps he wasn't as healthy as he is right now. I know it's one game against a very weak team, but he looked very good on the ball at least. Suriname will be a better gauge if he's chosen to play. 

If he still doesn't have a club and isn't playing regularly by the time we play Surinam, Ferreira doesn't make my 23 man squad list.

[red card]

Roster is going to bigger than 23. 4 potential matches in June. And 3 fall windows have 3 matches each.

In the recent WCQ in Europe, most teams did almost a full rotation for a match. Germany was one country that didn't and you know the rest of the story. France's roster size was 38.

Edited April 1, 2021 by red card

[Kent]

8 hours ago, Obinna said:

Perhaps he just wasn't the right fit for Farense, or perhaps he wasn't as healthy as he is right now. I know it's one game against a very weak team, but he looked very good on the ball at least. Suriname will be a better gauge if he's chosen to play. 

I worry about his speed. One thing that stood out to me was how badly he was outpaced in one play (I know, it's just 1 play, but there wasn't much going on for a defender in that game). It's hard to know if he is definitively slow, or worse yet, too slow, because you never know. Davies makes guys look slow who aren't. I have no idea who the guy was that outran him, but it was a thing I noticed and I wondered if this is a new reality for him. Hopefully he gets fit and a club.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

I worry about his speed. One thing that stood out to me was how badly he was outpaced in one play (I know, it's just 1 play, but there wasn't much going on for a defender in that game). It's hard to know if he is definitively slow, or worse yet, too slow, because you never know. Davies makes guys look slow who aren't. I have no idea who the guy was that outran him, but it was a thing I noticed and I wondered if this is a new reality for him. Hopefully he gets fit and a club.

He was always a slow player.

[Stryker911]

On 3/31/2021 at 11:05 AM, Northvansteve said:

The central defender role is going to be the most competitive of all the positions on the senior team. Clearly not yet settled with two sets of starters for each of the WC qualifying games, a different set for the Olympic qualifying, and a number of candidates on the outside looking in. 

Let's bump this thread to discuss where we rank the current contenders:

Steven Vitoria - clearly Herdman's first choice; regular starter in Portugal top division

Kamal Miller - looking like they want Kamal to be the left-sided starter; will be starter at Montreal?

Ricardo Ferreira - could be number one on this list if he finds a club, gets regular playing time and stays injury free

Doneil Henry - no reason to think he's not still in the mix as a potential starter

Derek Cornelius - given prominent leadership role on U23 team and excelled; will battle for a starting role with the Whitecaps all season

Frank Sturing - given a start for the senior team in a WC qualifier, thinking that means they rate him highly; hopefully plays for a higher level team soon 

Scott Kennedy - missed out on this round due to injury? You have to think he's in the mix due to the level he's playing

Joel Waterman - more playing time in Montreal this season?

Callum Montgomery - can he stick in Minnesota and get MLS playing time?

Amer Didic - a top CPL-level central defender

Manjrekar James - clearly not in Herdman's plans but in the past showed promise, a comeback is always possible if he can find a full-time role somewhere

Julian Dunn - most promising young central defender in the mix; will he finally get playing time with Toronto? If so, how high on this list does he go?

David Norman - promising debut as a central defender at U23; will be a CPL starter

Not my list, but how I think Herdman rates them based on our last couple games as well as the text squad.

Henry

Kennedy

Vitoria

Miller

Sturing

Waterman

Cornelius

Ferreira

Not really any standouts, but still a solid group. I hope 1 or 2 of these guys can elevate their games another level.

[frmr]

Crazy that Cornelius is so far down. It wasn't long ago that I thought he was maybe our #1.

[gator]

I still think this position is my biggest concern, the emergence of Kennedy and Johnston playing in a back 3 and Henry looking solid is a real good thing which gives us more options!

[BearcatSA]

45 minutes ago, frmr said:

Crazy that Cornelius is so far down. It wasn't long ago that I thought he was maybe our #1.

Needs a scenery change.

[Pottsy3]

I am starting to sound like a broken record, but I really hope the Gold Cup is used to ease Manjrekar James back into the picture.

[Bison44]

Its still a bit scary, Cornelius has followed James down into purgatory.  I think Jakovic has finally done as well.  I'd feel a lot better if Montgomery, Dunn, Yao or Heibert, somebody would catch a break and run with it.  Kennedy cant be the only young guy we have coming up.  

[Bdog]

On 6/20/2015 at 1:10 AM, nolando said:

This looks a hell of a lot better than our RB pool:

 

Ledgerwood

Edward

Practice Dummy

Pilon

Empty beer bottle someone left from last week's match

Retired Paul Stalteri

Retired Chris Pozniak

Sam Lenarduzzi

What a difference the last 6 years have made eh? Even depth guys like Cordova or Godinho would have been a godsend back then. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

5 hours ago, Pottsy3 said:

I am starting to sound like a broken record, but I really hope the Gold Cup is used to ease Manjrekar James back into the picture.

At the Gold Cup, he needs a chance, like Hoilett, unless their club situations works themselves out. Then they could very well be playing and certainly be in preseason ( if they find clubs that are going to use them.)

Henry will probably be back with his club for one.

 

 

[LeoH037]

6 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Its still a bit scary, Cornelius has followed James down into purgatory.  I think Jakovic has finally done as well.  I'd feel a lot better if Montgomery, Dunn, Yao or Heibert, somebody would catch a break and run with it.  Kennedy cant be the only young guy we have coming up.  

Pretty sure Singh isn't going with T&T now. He's pretty much as good as ours now and will likely see him in the Gold Cup if he's getting minutes with Toronto, so there's promise there

Edited June 17, 2021 by LeoH037

[baulderdash77]

The emergence of Scott Kennedy and Alistair Johnson alongside the return to form of Doneil Henry has completely changed the outlook of defence IMO.

The 3-5-2 formation is clearly working and Herdman looks like he’s finally found a spot to maximize Davies’ 2-way contribution.

With a back 3 I’m feeling quite good about the 4 player rotation of Vitoria, Henry, Kennedy and Johnson back there.  They look like a solid unit that can rotate and keep everyone fresh.  There’s a good mix of youth and veteran leadership.

For the Gold Cup and Octo we should all be sighing in relief as the defence has come into form.

[Shway]

The only thing I’ll say about our defence is that it hasn’t been tested.

[Ruffian]

11 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

Needs a scenery change.

I am not convinced Cornelius does. He is a young CB who can compete for playing time on an MLS team. Any move I think would likely be a step down. I wouldn't want him at a level lower than MLS.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Ruffian

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Ruffian said:

He is a young CB who can compete for playing time on an MLS team.

Just not under the current coaching staff for the Caps.  I just don't see it happening, really, unless their is a change in direction that department.  

[Ruffian]

5 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

Just not under the current coaching staff for the Caps.  I just don't see it happening, really, unless their is a change in direction that department.  

34 appearances in just over 2 years as a 21 and 22 year old with that same coaching staff.

[Bison44]

Yeah but only 1 start this year??  What happened to wanting guys that are match fit and on form??  HAHA, at CB  that all gets waived and fans are still trying to shoe horn Hutch into the backfield.  

[BearcatSA]

10 hours ago, Ruffian said:

34 appearances in just over 2 years as a 21 and 22 year old with that same coaching staff.

The same coaching staff that gives him a much quicker hook from the starting line up compared to similar shortcomings from Veselinovic and Rose, guys who have been afforded the opportunity to work through a setback with a start in the following match?  I watched Rose have a great view of Urruti's wide open goal at the far post in the last match vs Houston and I wouldn't have been surprised at all to see him start again if the next match was a week later.

Things have changed noticeably since 2019 (I even noted this in other threads here even last year) and the coaches look to have him at 4th on the depth chart right now.  

Edited June 18, 2021 by BearcatSA

[Pottsy3]

I think we can consider Henry and Vitoria locks to return at CB in the fall. Kennedy has probably created a good enough impression to be called back as well against Honduras et al. (not considering Johnston as a CB but he'll be there too).

The Gold Cup would ideally see a group called to challenge for that last CB spot in WCQ rosters. With three game windows in the fall/winter, rotation could be really important. 

Ideally for me:

 

WCQ Locks: 

Henry

Vitoria

Kennedy

 

Gold Cup:

Miller

Ferreira

Sturing

James

Cornelius

Singh

 

If there is a taxi squad for GC:

Waterman

Dunn

and maybe a couple CPLers a la Zator, Didic, Schaale if eligible

 

 

Gold Cup 60 Man rosters are rumoured to be released today, so we should know a little bit more soon.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Pottsy3