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Liam Fraser

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Agreed.  TFC does not need to spend DP money on a CDM when they have a capable and cost friendly option.  DP money will be spent on attacking pieces, especially as Jozy is always suffering injuries. Even “why play Canadians” Vanney will see that.

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Bradley's not going anywhere as long as Vanney is there.  Bradley's money doesn't matter, he is the captain and he will play most every game and Liam will sit.

If the deal Fraser signed in Jan 2018 is the usual 2+2 option years, he will start his option years next season.  I would hope TFC will re-negotiate his contract this off season and show him some respect and invest in him as the future heir to Bradley's spot, if so he should stay and bide his time. 

If they try to make him play out his option years on the cheap contract he's on now, he should really see if he can make a move, even on loan. 

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12 minutes ago, narduch said:

They could always use the DP spot on an attacker instead, freeing up room for Fraser.

This.  Toronto needs a top quality winger in its lineup.  A CDM just isn’t worth DP money in the MLS.

If Toronto wins the MLS cup, then by all means bring on the Bradley victory lap.  Otherwise I think Fraser can do the job and it’s worth taking a look at Junior Hoilett next year.  

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Liam Fraser loves the city of Toronto and is only 21.  Bradley doesn't have many years left in his career, so I would hate to see Fraser leave TFC.  But he will need more playing time next year if he does stay.

Edited by Corazon

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1 hour ago, BFBF said:

Even if Bradley leaves there is no chance that Vanney will play Liam. Vanney will just bring in some international on big money to do the job that Liam could do just fine. Not just because Vanney doesn't like young Canadians, but also because fans go crazy in the MLS if you replace a DP with a homegrown. The "status" of a player has way to much influence in the MLS and the regular fan wouldn't be happy. I don't like it, but I think it's true.

For the fairweather fan wouldn't it be a plus to replace a run of the mill defensive midfielder DP with a homegrown and use that DP slot for a internationally recognizable striker? They wouldn't see replacing a Bradley DP with a homegrown, they'd see as replacing a Bradley DP with <insert here internationally known striker>

Edited by king1010

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If Liam  plays at the U23 Olympic qualifier and plays amazing. TFC would be stupid not get him  Bradley spot and use the savings to go get a good striker, One that doesn’t get hurt all the time.

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2 hours ago, Corazon said:

Liam Fraser loves Toronto and is only 21.  Bradley doesn't have many years left in his career, so I would hate to see Fraser leave TFC.  But he will need more playing time next year if he does stay.

Sometimes you have to go outside your comfort zone to get playing time. If he was 18/19 perhaps you wait.. I hope he does not follow  Jordan Hamilton's path.

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Liam will eventually play and will get minutes , has nothing to do with him being Canadian and Vanney not liking Canadians. Osorio came out of nowhere and under Vanney has become the player he is. Layrea was hardly seeing the field with Orlando and was let go by Orlando , comes to TFC Vanney takes a chance on him and plays him in many games and now look at him. If you play well you will play and get playing time it’s simple as that but it’s a free country so if you want to keep believing that Vanney hates Canadians then keep believing that if it makes you feel good. Vanney is no longer playing his own nephew Zavaletta anymore why? For the simple reason he was playing like crap. In 2017’s TFC MLS Cup winning run Zavaletta actually played relatively well so he got minutes, last year and this year he played like crap so he very seldom plays anymore. Many people on here think Jay Chapman should be playing more, but Jay Chapman was given enough playing time expecially last year when TFC had many injuries and had the Champions League run early in the season, but apart from the odd goal here and there did not really impress or has impressed even this year when he has come on. If I have to chose between Marky Delgado and Chapman it’s not even close it’s Marky Delgado based on his overall play and effectiveness on the field. Once again you play well you will get playing time it’s simple as that just ask Osorio or now even Richie Layrea .

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1 hour ago, SoccMan said:

 If you play well you will play and get playing time it’s simple as that

But he has played well. In 2018 he looked good every time he was on the field despite the team being a **** show and this season he also looked great, Vanney decided to reward him by leaving him out of the 18 in the last half of the season.

What has Patrick Mullins done to get playing time? Dude gets subbed on late last game and looks like he's jogging at defenders to pressure them.

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1 hour ago, SoccMan said:

Liam will eventually play and will get minutes , has nothing to do with him being Canadian and Vanney not liking Canadians. Osorio came out of nowhere and under Vanney has become the player he is. Layrea was hardly seeing the field with Orlando and was let go by Orlando , comes to TFC Vanney takes a chance on him and plays him in many games and now look at him. If you play well you will play and get playing time it’s simple as that but it’s a free country so if you want to keep believing that Vanney hates Canadians then keep believing that if it makes you feel good. Vanney is no longer playing his own nephew Zavaletta anymore why? For the simple reason he was playing like crap. In 2017’s TFC MLS Cup winning run Zavaletta actually played relatively well so he got minutes, last year and this year he played like crap so he very seldom plays anymore. Many people on here think Jay Chapman should be playing more, but Jay Chapman was given enough playing time expecially last year when TFC had many injuries and had the Champions League run early in the season, but apart from the odd goal here and there did not really impress or has impressed even this year when he has come on. If I have to chose between Marky Delgado and Chapman it’s not even close it’s Marky Delgado based on his overall play and effectiveness on the field. Once again you play well you will get playing time it’s simple as that just ask Osorio or now even Richie Layrea .

It just seems like the Canadians have to play MUCH better than other players to get on the field. Just ask Jordan Hamilton and Tosaint Ricketts who were both shipped out in favour of mediocre Americans (Patrick Mullins and Terrence Boyd respectively). Or Ryan Telfer who played very well for TFC but lost his spot, (who even was his competition? I legit can’t remember). Even Richie Laryea who you mentioned as an example of Vanney’s lack of nationality bias, to me he has been a lot better than Auro this season, and yet he is coming off the bench while Auro is getting starts.

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Good article on Fraser. He gives a diplomatic answer to the question of moving to another team to get playing time.

I wasn't aware that he had spent six years in the Whitecaps academy. Some eye opening comments about that organization. He doesn't seem to have anything good to say about them.

https://chatnewstoday.ca/2019/10/23/liam-fraser-bides-his-time-with-toronto-fc-but-believes-he-is-ready-for-more-2/

Edited by Norrin Radd

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13 minutes ago, Norrin Radd said:

Good article on Fraser. He gives a diplomatic answer to the question of moving to another team to get playing time.

I wasn't aware that he had spent six years in the Whitecaps academy. Some eye opening comments about that organization. He doesn't seem to have anything good to say about them.

https://chatnewstoday.ca/2019/10/23/liam-fraser-bides-his-time-with-toronto-fc-but-believes-he-is-ready-for-more-2/

If my math is correct, he was 14 or 15 when he returned to Toronto from Vancouver. He complains that the Whitecaps organisation only gave him age-group football. Realistically, though, how many players are ready for U18 or senior team football at the age of 14. Not many, I'd say, not even those that go on to be world class players.

His complaint has echoes of Owen ********** carrying around bitterness for decades because he was cut from a Canadian age-group team as an underager. I don't have kids, so I don't know. Is this the level of entitlement that the last couple of generations are bringing to the table?

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2 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Comments are a little strange considering he left the Whitecaps at 14. I guess he thought he was Alphonso Davies x 2

If I was more succinct, I'd have beat you to the punch. 😄 

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Well I guess we'll see eh?  Will Lareya continue to get chances or will he get shipped out like Edwards, Telfer, Hamilton, who all got some chances, seemed to play well and Vanney didnt stick with them and shipped them out.  Seems like Fraser is more on course with the second group of guys and that is another shame.  Maybe it'll work out, maybe not, but dont tell me there is a pretty good pattern built up over the years.  Osorio, who was there before Vanney and was playing very well would be the exception not the rule.  And even there I would say he got to his current level in spite of Vanney, not because of him.  

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1 hour ago, Kent said:

It just seems like the Canadians have to play MUCH better than other players to get on the field. Just ask Jordan Hamilton and Tosaint Ricketts who were both shipped out in favour of mediocre Americans (Patrick Mullins and Terrence Boyd respectively). Or Ryan Telfer who played very well for TFC but lost his spot, (who even was his competition? I legit can’t remember). Even Richie Laryea who you mentioned as an example of Vanney’s lack of nationality bias, to me he has been a lot better than Auro this season, and yet he is coming off the bench while Auro is getting starts.

Vanney doesn't hate Canadians, but I do get the impression that  whole American-based TFC brass often overrate American players. Not always but more often than they seem to do any other nationality. I think this can be traced back to getting the likes of Robbie Findley at a fairly high salary when RSL was happy to get rid of him. The strikers you mentioned as well fall into this category, and we haven't even mentioned Ben Spencer - until now that is.

 

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6 hours ago, SoccMan said:

Liam will eventually play and will get minutes , has nothing to do with him being Canadian and Vanney not liking Canadians. Osorio came out of nowhere and under Vanney has become the player he is. Layrea was hardly seeing the field with Orlando and was let go by Orlando , comes to TFC Vanney takes a chance on him and plays him in many games and now look at him. If you play well you will play and get playing time it’s simple as that but it’s a free country so if you want to keep believing that Vanney hates Canadians then keep believing that if it makes you feel good. Vanney is no longer playing his own nephew Zavaletta anymore why? For the simple reason he was playing like crap. In 2017’s TFC MLS Cup winning run Zavaletta actually played relatively well so he got minutes, last year and this year he played like crap so he very seldom plays anymore. Many people on here think Jay Chapman should be playing more, but Jay Chapman was given enough playing time expecially last year when TFC had many injuries and had the Champions League run early in the season, but apart from the odd goal here and there did not really impress or has impressed even this year when he has come on. If I have to chose between Marky Delgado and Chapman it’s not even close it’s Marky Delgado based on his overall play and effectiveness on the field. Once again you play well you will get playing time it’s simple as that just ask Osorio or now even Richie Layrea .

 

I personally think it's a bit of a coincidence that it just so happens to be Canadians. Players like Hamilton and Chapman weren't good enough. Although, I do have an issue of him selling these players and replacing them with more expensive, equally poor/mediocre Americans, who end up doing worse or exactly the same thing as the Canadian players, just a bigger salary eating the capspace..

 

There are more examples but people already mentioned it. My biggest problem is how he deals with your academy players.

Edwards was the talk of MLS at one point. The fans were loving him. But in the second half of the season, it was like he vanished. Before you know it, Hagglund is protected over him in the superdraft, and worse, we made no effort to get him back. This is how you handle a young academy prospect?

Teams are literally playing 16-17 year olds, these kids are  getting more minutes than a 21 year old Fraser. Not even kidding. Busio, Araujo, Bassett etc range from 16-18 and they all saw more minutes than Fraser this year. How is it that these teams trust their kids so much, meanwhile Fraser has to go to BMO field and hope that Bradley is hurt, suspended, or on international duty just so he can get on the tfc bench? That is a concern. This is not how you develop young players. You have to give them starts, you have to sub them on once in a while. Get their confidence going, get them experience. This is hurting his development. He's already behind his progression with the lack of playing time.

We were ******* beating DC 5-1 and he STILL couldn't see a ******* minute. The guy was coming off a high against the States earlier in the week, he was full of confidence. Way to shoot it down. That was the perfect time to play the kid, but nope, gotta get Mullins in there..

Is Okello going to see his first sub when he's 23 years old or what?

 

Edited by Colliedor

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He has Bradley playing on his spot, that's his problem! A team without a DP on D-mid would suit him better.

And to the point of Bison:

To get some starts is one thing, to keep up the level is another. Endoh looked flashy at his start but then spent a whole season in USL before eventually getting back into the team and now playing in the most important games. Vanney looks at who's hot at the moment.

Another point is that in MLS, you need a lot of players in the rotation. The most important thing is to get the best ones in the team when it matters. That's why see guys like Schaffelburg and Chapman get minutes in the beginning of the season. 

To Layrea: he's already proven his worth. Still needs to work on his defense but he's managed the position well and with the ball he's exceptional. No doubt he'll be getting more minutes. He's also older and more consistent. 

 

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1 hour ago, narduch said:

Its too bad MLS teams don't really do Inter league loans. 

Fraser is good enough to start at an MLS level and needs to be playing consistently for his development. 

He is too good for TFC II now. 

They do. They have to be under 24 to go on an inter league loan - which Fraser qualifies for. 

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On 10/25/2019 at 8:55 AM, narduch said:

Its too bad MLS teams don't really do Inter league loans. 

Fraser is good enough to start at an MLS level and needs to be playing consistently for his development. 

He is too good for TFC II now. 

As @Shway mentioned, an inter-league loan actually is a possibility for Fraser. The first example of an MLS inter-league loan that comes to mind is Lalas Abubakar. He couldn't break through with the Crew so he was loaned out to the Rapids this season. He was a regular starter and won their defender of the year award. Liam is in a similar situation. He is certainly good enough start in MLS, he is just finding it difficult to break through with TFC. I think that a loan to another MLS team would be a great option until there is more space at TFC.

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TFC have never been good at bringing academy players to their full potential.  I agree with most here that Fraser should look to get himself into a better situation where he will get playing time.  Unfortunately, being Canadian his value isn't nearly as high in the rest of MLS.  

With CPL here now I wonder what kind of impact it will have on players coming out of the TFC academy.  Will they sign long term deals or bet on themselves in CPL?  

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