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Obinna, No one is putting words in his mouth,  How would you interpret that statement?  If you dont trust medicine, presciptions from doctors etc, what would be the reason?? He believes the science is real, medical science is real....but....????????  He is allergic to the white coats doctos and pharmacists wear??  

“I never have,” he said. “I’ve never had vaccines. I don’t get the flu shot. I don’t get any of that. I don’t take medicine. I don’t take prescription crap. Any of that.

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Probably one of the shittest takes I've read on this board. And that's saying something. 😭

I'm not saying he is better than Bradley, but the cost of Bradley certainly isn't justified when Fraser can come in his place.

It looks like that inter-league loan that I suggested for Liam a year and a half ago is finally materializing:  

Posted Images

On 5/1/2021 at 9:05 PM, TOcanadafan said:

But I suspect that people get emotional/outraged because someone’s  ‘lack of trust’ (which also coincides with believing the rhetoric of anti-vaxxer crackpots who know nothing about the science of vaccines) can have an effect on the health and lives of other people.

Pretty much

 

On 5/1/2021 at 6:03 PM, yomurphy1 said:

I piped up earlier because another commenter called DeLeon a prick and I now understand why.  I suspect none of us on this forum are well versed in the intricacies of mRNA vaccines. Your support of "science" is trust (or faith if you want call it) based, likely not a product of deep understanding.

 

lol, speak for yourself

 But all that side, I should add that there was the irking aspect of a guy who gets paid a shit ton of money to kick a ball for a living going on a tabloid to bitch about how hard his life is because he has to be away from home and can't do the things he wants to do, whereas its the same for everyone else, with the exception that almost everyone else has had their livelihoods affected in the process. Then goes on to bitch and smear the tools and efforts present to save lives and try to bring society back to where it was pre pandemic. So yeah I repeat, I rather not have jackasses representing my city and club 🤣 

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52 minutes ago, archer21 said:

What I mean is that people think they’re smarter than the people who spend their lives working on things. If the vast majority of scientists and doctors think that the benefits of the vaccine far outweighs the risk, then why would I think that I know better? 

I don't think it's a matter of thinking they're smarter than experts who spend their lives working on things, at least in most cases. I think it is a matter of blindly putting your faith in them.

Can experts fall victim to bias? Can experts be swayed by the scientific consensus? Can the scientific consensus be nudged by industry or government? Can experts be influenced by grant money? The answer to all of these questions is obviously yes, especially when there is profit to be had. 

Experts are human beings, after all. You can trust their knowledge on a subject while simultaneously considering each of those questions and factoring them accordingly. If you blindly follow experts on this subject, or any subject, you are not thinking critically.

The flipside of blindly trusting experts is blindly trusting conspiracy theories without question. Notice in the above how I carefully used the word "can" in those questions, and not "are"? Assuming the experts are definitely compromised, without proof, is equally foolhardy, if not more so. 

At any rate one must use their judgement and act accordingly, which is what everyone is doing, including DeLeon.

If he succumbs to Covid-19 because he never wanted to get vaccinated, that's his problem. The rest of the vaccinated public will social distance and take measures to protect ourselves. We need not fear or slander people like DeLeon.

52 minutes ago, archer21 said:

Also, yes if you look at the numbers, they do back up that the risk of the virus is worse than that of the disease. I’m not sure how someone can look at the numbers of deaths worldwide from Covid vs the number of adverse reactions from the vaccine, and come to the conclusion that they’d rather not be vaccinated. So yes, I’d say those people are not able to comprehend statistics, or are just so biased that they intentionally ignore them.

Again, I would say it probably has more to do with trusting the reporting of deaths and the reporting of vaccine injury.

The fact he called it "crap" suggests he believes the benefits of vaccines and medications are overblown, plus he said himself he is healthy as can be, so it seems he is informed by his personal experience. Again, nothing in his statement suggesting he is remotely against science, or that he thinks he's smarter than the experts. 

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39 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Obinna, No one is putting words in his mouth,  How would you interpret that statement?  If you dont trust medicine, presciptions from doctors etc, what would be the reason?? He believes the science is real, medical science is real....but....????????  He is allergic to the white coats doctos and pharmacists wear??  

“I never have,” he said. “I’ve never had vaccines. I don’t get the flu shot. I don’t get any of that. I don’t take medicine. I don’t take prescription crap. Any of that.

Pretty easy, just read it verbatim. No interpretation required, it's in plain English.

I can't believe how surprised people are that a healthy 30 year old man, who hasn't taken medication his entire life, isn't rushing to get a covid-19 vaccine that uses an experimental technology lol 

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15 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I can't believe how surprised people are that a healthy 30 year old man, who hasn't taken medication his entire life, isn't rushing to get a covid-19 vaccine that uses an experimental technology lol 

Ironic... weren't you just boasting about having a science degree a few essays ago? I guess it's not just people without science backgrounds that make vague and lazy statements then? I guess this could serve as a lesson that anecdotal experiences don't provide a large enough sample size to make any defining conclusions (FYI mRNA tech has been around for quite a while)

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3 minutes ago, LeoH037 said:

(FYI mRNA tech has been around for quite a while)

It's been in research and development for decades, but the clinical trials are ongoing right now, as we speak, thus making it experimental. 

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3 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Silly me, a 30 year old who claims to have never had any medicine or shots and would never get either is a little surprising.  He must never have been injured...no stiches....no clashes of heads on the pitch.  

 

He was never talking about injuries on the pitch, so you're just being purposely obtuse in order to obfuscate the point. Nice try though 😎

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7 minutes ago, Obinna said:

He was never talking about injuries on the pitch, so you're just being purposely obtuse in order to obfuscate the point. Nice try though 😎

NEVER TAKEN MEDICINE DONT TAKE PRESCRIPTION CRAP, DONT GET SHOTS.  

How the fuck would he get a knee/ankle surgery, or stiches or pain meds for torn muscles etc  How does he get his teeth worked on??   Sure sounds like he doesnt trust medicine..ie medical science.  Cripes who is being obtuse??  

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6 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

NEVER TAKEN MEDICINE DONT TAKE PRESCRIPTION CRAP, DONT GET SHOTS.  

How the fuck would he get a knee/ankle surgery, or stiches or pain meds for torn muscles etc  How does he get his teeth worked on??   Sure sounds like he doesnt trust medicine..ie medical science.  Cripes who is being obtuse??  

magic clearly, geeeeez try to keep up 😂

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

NEVER TAKEN MEDICINE DONT TAKE PRESCRIPTION CRAP, DONT GET SHOTS.  

How the fuck would he get a knee/ankle surgery, or stiches or pain meds for torn muscles etc  How does he get his teeth worked on??   Sure sounds like he doesnt trust medicine..ie medical science.  Cripes who is being obtuse??  

You are overanalyzing this way too much. He's very clearly talking in the context of vaccines and general health management (probably doesn't take pain medications, etc.), not surgical procedures that require local anesthetic. Nowhere did he say he does or doesn't trust medicine in general 😄

You are being obtuse by bringing surgery into it and searching for instances where he must have used medication in the past, which is obviously far removed from his point, which is that he is not going to take a covid-19 vaccine lol

Edited by Obinna
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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

NEVER TAKEN MEDICINE DONT TAKE PRESCRIPTION CRAP, DONT GET SHOTS.  

How the fuck would he get a knee/ankle surgery, or stiches or pain meds for torn muscles etc  How does he get his teeth worked on??   Sure sounds like he doesnt trust medicine..ie medical science.  Cripes who is being obtuse??  

Maybe he uses the Felix Mcgath treatment. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/29319599

Edited by Greatest Cockney Rip Off
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3 hours ago, Obinna said:

I don't think it's a matter of thinking they're smarter than experts who spend their lives working on things, at least in most cases. I think it is a matter of blindly putting your faith in them.

The science all points to one conclusions. I am not in a position to conduct my own experiments. Where else am I to go to get the proper science?

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

Can experts fall victim to bias? Can experts be swayed by the scientific consensus? Can the scientific consensus be nudged by industry or government? Can experts be influenced by grant money? The answer to all of these questions is obviously yes, especially when there is profit to be had. 

Experts are human beings, after all. You can trust their knowledge on a subject while simultaneously considering each of those questions and factoring them accordingly. If you blindly follow experts on this subject, or any subject, you are not thinking critically. 

To assume that all of the experts are just being biased/bought and paid for is conspiracy, and is showing that you don’t trust the science that is being done. Literally against the science. So why are we arguing that nobody is against science? Again, there is literally no non-conspiratorial side to this that says the vaccine is worse than the virus.

4 hours ago, Obinna said:

The flipside of blindly trusting experts is blindly trusting conspiracy theories without question. Notice in the above how I carefully used the word "can" in those questions, and not "are"? Assuming the experts are definitely compromised, without proof, is equally foolhardy, if not more so. 

Trusting peer reviewed research is not in the same realm as trusting some conspiracy theorist on the internet.

 

4 hours ago, Obinna said:

At any rate one must use their judgement and act accordingly, which is what everyone is doing, including DeLeon.

If you think DeLeon carefully reviewed both sides and came to this conclusion, I don’t know what to tell you.

4 hours ago, Obinna said:

At any rate one must use their judgement and act accordingly, which is what everyone is doing, including DeLeon.

If he succumbs to Covid-19 because he never wanted to get vaccinated, that's his problem. The rest of the vaccinated public will social distance and take measures to protect ourselves. We need not fear or slander people like DeLeon. 

It is not just about DeLeon, it is about public health. Some people cannot be vaccinated because of health conditions/age, so everyone else needs to do their part to reach herd immunity.

4 hours ago, Obinna said:

Again, I would say it probably has more to do with trusting the reporting of deaths and the reporting of vaccine injury.

The fact he called it "crap" suggests he believes the benefits of vaccines and medications are overblown, plus he said himself he is healthy as can be, so it seems he is informed by his personal experience. Again, nothing in his statement suggesting he is remotely against science, or that he thinks he's smarter than the experts. 

Again, conspiratorial. This is still insane that we argue this. There were approximately 300,000 more deaths in the US than expected last year if we didn’t have Covid and about 300,000 covid deaths reported. Even assume half of the covid deaths that were reported were bullshit (obviously they were not). That leaves us 150,000 deaths from Covid in 2020. Does he really think the vaccine will kill 150,000 people in a year? There’s no way someone could seriously think that the risk of the vaccine is worse than the risk of covid unless they believe some seriously crazy shit.

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42 minutes ago, archer21 said:

The science all points to one conclusions. I am not in a position to conduct my own experiments. Where else am I to go to get the proper science?

To assume that all of the experts are just being biased/bought and paid for is conspiracy, and is showing that you don’t trust the science that is being done. Literally against the science. So why are we arguing that nobody is against science? Again, there is literally no non-conspiratorial side to this that says the vaccine is worse than the virus.

Trusting peer reviewed research is not in the same realm as trusting some conspiracy theorist on the internet.

 

If you think DeLeon carefully reviewed both sides and came to this conclusion, I don’t know what to tell you.

It is not just about DeLeon, it is about public health. Some people cannot be vaccinated because of health conditions/age, so everyone else needs to do their part to reach herd immunity.

Again, conspiratorial. This is still insane that we argue this. There were approximately 300,000 more deaths in the US than expected last year if we didn’t have Covid and about 300,000 covid deaths reported. Even assume half of the covid deaths that were reported were bullshit (obviously they were not). That leaves us 150,000 deaths from Covid in 2020. Does he really think the vaccine will kill 150,000 people in a year? There’s no way someone could seriously think that the risk of the vaccine is worse than the risk of covid unless they believe some seriously crazy shit.

"come on man!"

There is a separate page for this discussion.  Y'all are tarnishing Liam's page.

I'll help:

 

 

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19 minutes ago, archer21 said:

The science all points to one conclusions. I am not in a position to conduct my own experiments. Where else am I to go to get the proper science?

Proper science?

20 minutes ago, archer21 said:

To assume that all of the experts are just being biased/bought and paid for is conspiracy, and is showing that you don’t trust the science that is being done. Literally against the science. So why are we arguing that nobody is against science? Again, there is literally no non-conspiratorial side to this that says the vaccine is worse than the virus.

I covered this here: 

4 hours ago, Obinna said:

The flipside of blindly trusting experts is blindly trusting conspiracy theories without question. Assuming the experts are definitely compromised, without proof, is equally foolhardy, if not more so. 

 

22 minutes ago, archer21 said:

Trusting peer reviewed research is not in the same realm as trusting some conspiracy theorist on the internet.

Agreed. Not sure what your point is here.

23 minutes ago, archer21 said:

If you think DeLeon carefully reviewed both sides and came to this conclusion, I don’t know what to tell you.

I don't pretend to know how carefully or not carefully DeLeon considered anything.

25 minutes ago, archer21 said:

It is not just about DeLeon, it is about public health. Some people cannot be vaccinated because of health conditions/age, so everyone else needs to do their part to reach herd immunity.

Need? You can't make people vaccinate against their will. That's seriously crazy talk. 

36 minutes ago, archer21 said:

Again, conspiratorial. This is still insane that we argue this. There were approximately 300,000 more deaths in the US than expected last year if we didn’t have Covid and about 300,000 covid deaths reported. Even assume half of the covid deaths that were reported were bullshit (obviously they were not). That leaves us 150,000 deaths from Covid in 2020. Does he really think the vaccine will kill 150,000 people in a year? There’s no way someone could seriously think that the risk of the vaccine is worse than the risk of covid unless they believe some seriously crazy shit.

Questioning the reporting doesn't need to be conspiratorial. There are plenty of reasons to cast doubt on reporting that do not involve conspiracy. Claiming it is conspiratorial is just an easy way out for someone who doesn't want to look at the situation more critically. 

Also, why are you assuming 100% of those extra deaths are covid related?

There are many other possible explanations for those deaths, ranging from drug overdoses to poor health to job loss. All of those things increased in 2020.  Total deaths in the US fluctuate up and down by hundreds of thousands year over year.

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5 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Proper science?

I covered this here: 

 

Agreed. Not sure what your point is here.

I don't pretend to know how carefully or not carefully DeLeon considered anything.

Need? You can't make people vaccinate against their will. That's seriously crazy talk. 

Questioning the reporting doesn't need to be conspiratorial. There are plenty of reasons to cast doubt on reporting that do not involve conspiracy. Claiming it is conspiratorial is just an easy way out for someone who doesn't want to look at the situation more critically. 

Also, why are you assuming 100% of those extra deaths are covid related?

There are many other possible explanations for those deaths, ranging from drug overdoses to poor health to job loss. All of those things increased in 2020.  Total deaths in the US fluctuate up and down by hundreds of thousands year over year.

What an absolute waste of time this was, as expected. Do you really not accept that the science points to the fact that contracting Covid is much more dangerous than taking the vaccine? And if you do realize that it points to that, then how can having the opposite viewpoint not be against the science?

By the way, we force people to take vaccines all the time, hence the eradication  of various diseases through vaccination. How is something crazy talk when we do it all the time already? Again, you keep talking about the “risk” of vaccine. What is this risk, and how is it greater than Covid?

I literally cut the reported Covid death numbers in half to show that the number of deaths is still really high, even if reporting is inaccurate. So it doesn’t matter if 100% of reported deaths are Covid related. 
 

Finally, total deaths don’t “fluctuate year to year by hundreds of thousands”, they have steadily risen by 30-70k each year over the past decade due to population growth and an aging population.

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1 minute ago, archer21 said:

What an absolute waste of time this was, as expected. Do you really not accept that the science points to the fact that contracting Covid is much more dangerous than taking the vaccine? And if you do realize that it points to that, then how can having the opposite viewpoint not be against the science?

By the way, we force people to take vaccines all the time, hence the eradication  of various diseases through vaccination. How is something crazy talk when we do it all the time already? Again, you keep talking about the “risk” of vaccine. What is this risk, and how is it greater than Covid?

I literally cut the reported Covid death numbers in half to show that the number of deaths is still really high, even if reporting is inaccurate. So it doesn’t matter if 100% of reported deaths are Covid related. 
 

Finally, total deaths don’t “fluctuate year to year by hundreds of thousands”, they have steadily risen by 30-70k each year over the past decade due to population growth and an aging population.

Dude, I can't tell you what the risk is over the long run, because I don't have a crystal ball telling me what happens in a few years from now. Typically we'd run human clinical trials over multiple years to gather data, but we haven't done that. Do we understand all the intricacies of Sars Cov 2 spike protein interaction with ACE2 receptor sites in the human body over several years? We are going to find out years into the future post-vaccine rollout, but don't pretend we have a crystal ball.

And no, we don't force people to take vaccines. If we did DeLeon would be vaccinated. 

Final comment on this and I am done, because it is also a big waste of my time, but people will be less cautious with these jabs overtime, as long as our vaccine rollout / clinical trials demonstrate that adverse reactions are not too serious, so don't worry about it man. People are mostly experiencing brief covid-like symptoms for a day or two, which according to at least 1 pro-vaccine immunologist (Dr. Hooman Noordchashm) is probably due to recent Sars Cov 2 exposure. There are some fringe cases of allergic reaction from polyethylene glycol, issues with mensuration, along with very rare cases of blood clots and death (which are unfortunately a risk with traditional vaccines as well). So as I have been saying, you just have to weight all of that up against the 99.5% probability that you'll die from Covid-19 and make the right decision for you. That's what Nick DeLeon did and you can think he's an idiot and imagine him to be an anti-science quick (maybe he is, who knows), but at the end of the day it's still a personal decision (which you shouldn't be coerced into) based partly on your age, because if you're older you need not be worried about possible long term side effects that may never come to pass. If you're younger, perhaps you have more to think about, or maybe not. Depends on the person.

Anyways, that's the last word from me. Cheers.

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7 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Dude, I can't tell you what the risk is over the long run, because I don't have a crystal ball telling me what happens in a few years from now. Typically we'd run human clinical trials over multiple years to gather data, but we haven't done that. Do we understand all the intricacies of Sars Cov 2 spike protein interaction with ACE2 receptor sites in the human body over several years? We are going to find out years into the future post-vaccine rollout, but don't pretend we have a crystal ball.

And no, we don't force people to take vaccines. If we did DeLeon would be vaccinated. 

Final comment on this and I am done, because it is also a big waste of my time, but people will be less cautious with these jabs overtime, as long as our vaccine rollout / clinical trials demonstrate that adverse reactions are not too serious, so don't worry about it man. People are mostly experiencing brief covid-like symptoms for a day or two, which according to at least 1 pro-vaccine immunologist (Dr. Hooman Noordchashm) is probably due to recent Sars Cov 2 exposure. There are some fringe cases of allergic reaction from polyethylene glycol, issues with mensuration, along with very rare cases of blood clots and death (which are unfortunately a risk with traditional vaccines as well). So as I have been saying, you just have to weight all of that up against the 99.5% probability that you'll die from Covid-19 and make the right decision for you. That's what Nick DeLeon did and you can think he's an idiot and imagine him to be an anti-science quick (maybe he is, who knows), but at the end of the day it's still a personal decision (which you shouldn't be coerced into) based partly on your age, because if you're older you need not be worried about possible long term side effects that may never come to pass. If you're younger, perhaps you have more to think about, or maybe not. Depends on the person.

Anyways, that's the last word from me. Cheers.

Yeah I’m done with the argument as well because people have had their minds made up on the issue for a long time, and no matter what argument/evidence is presented to them, they are too dug in to listen anyways.

One last point though. We don’t yet know the long term effects of taking the vaccine, which is a concern. We also don’t really know the long term effects of being infected with Covid either though. Early results show that there could be life long, or at least long term side effects. Some have had scarring of heart/lungs, others have high blood pressure still a year after being infected, etc. Yes, the side effects technically COULD be worse long term from taking the vaccine, but there’s absolutely no reason to believe that would be the case.

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