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Liam Fraser

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1 hour ago, red card said:

When TFC started out, they went after the hardcore base rather than than the casuals that MLS 1.0 was based on. They were a bad team but still were one of better attendances in MLS.

They're spending big money because that is the business model of MLSE. And they believe they'll get their ROI from upselling the hard core base and expanding it in the long run (but will need help from the overall growth of the sport and MLS being more viewed as a top 5 league). MLSE also has a number of teams in its stable, so some TFC gains are cannibalizing sales from other MLSE teams.

The hard core TFC base do care about developing Canadian academy players and seeing them get minutes in MLS. So, if not deemed ready for MLS yet, as others have mentioned, TFC needs to get into the loan game to see if they'll sink or swim. It's what every other major football club does but instead they manage TFC player development like it was the Leafs or Raptors situation.

Winning gets casuals into TFC in the short run as evidenced by the TV ratings when they got to the MLS Cup. However, since MLS isn't the pinnacle of the sport, if these casuals stick with the sport, they also add other football leagues to their diet. Most casuals haven't stuck around. MLS Cup ratings fell to 1 million last year from a peak of 3 million. And regular season TFC ratings are again below 100k and being matched by the CPL this year.

 

I disagree with this somewhat. They initially spent big because MLSE realized that while nearly a decade of unprecedented incompetence hadn't necessarily killed the Golden Goose, the bird was definitely on life support. They massively overspent to get a few big names in as a grovelling way to keep the fan base onside. At this point, there is no pathway to sustainability of TFC's model outside of remaining a tax write off against the massive profits that MLSE makes from the Leafs and, for now, the Raptors. Unless they change their way of doing things, they won't make any big money on transfers and a future big TV contract is a unicorn. They'll remain a loss making enterprise for the foreseeable.

That being said, outside of this board, TFC's model seems to be working for everybody involved. The team wins on the back of the huge payroll (by MLS standards), the fans are mostly happy, and MLSE is content to write off the losses on their MLS operations as part of their overall business. 

Personally, my only interest in TFC is as a development vehicle for Canadian players. I freely admit that that's the narrow lens I'm looking through. On that score, I don't see any benefit to the club using some of our most-promising CMNT prospects as window dressing rather than as legitimate playing options. I'm happy that a handful are now getting loaned out, but on the whole, I'd prefer to see the best TFC academy kids decline MLS contracts and try their hand overseas. Specifically to Liam Fraser, if he doesn't get out soon, the high ceiling that we've all seen for him will crash into the basement.

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I think most MLS teams (or heck any team in a salary cap league) in TFC's position  would be looking to re-sign a promising 22 year old Fraser and instead trade Bradley for some CB help given that they are still at their thinnest. One gets the feeling that this won't happen though.

This doesn't mean that Fraser would suddenly start games instead of Osorio & Delgado, just that most teams look to offset their expensive surplus assets (like Bradley) and retain more affordable ones (like Fraser).

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1 hour ago, SthMelbRed said:

They initially spent big because MLSE realized that while nearly a decade of unprecedented incompetence hadn't necessarily killed the Golden Goose, the bird was definitely on life support.

Not quite. The only years TFC didn't spend on DPs were 2007 & 2008. Julian de Guzman was the first in 2009, joined by Mista in 2010 (royally pissing off DeRo), then in 2011 they expanded to three DPs with Frings and Koevermans.

They've always been a high-spending club, they just didn't know how to properly spend that money until the Tim Leiweke era (which coincided with MLSE being bought out by Bell and Rogers).

Now they're a content provider for their telco owners. Whether that's money well spent is up to the telco duopoly.

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2 hours ago, RS said:

Not quite. The only years TFC didn't spend on DPs were 2007 & 2008. Julian de Guzman was the first in 2009, joined by Mista in 2010 (royally pissing off DeRo), then in 2011 they expanded to three DPs with Frings and Koevermans.

DeRo "write the cheque" goal celebration is what I remember best from that time.

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14 hours ago, El Hombre said:

Things really seemed to change when Bezbatchenko came on board.  Before that, the culture of the team would change with every coach: Preki would bring in European wanderers from Latvia/Russia, Winter had a distinct Dutch flavour in the players brought in during his tenure, Nelsen opted more for the English types with his players.  Once Bezbatchenko joined, that's when things seemed to stabilize with bringing in high-priced talent like Defoe, Bradley, Giovinco, Altidore etc.

Could be completely off-base but it seemed like the (major) personnel decisions were taken out of the coach's hands and dealt with more by the manager.  Perhaps at least part of the reason TFC has been more successful during the Vanney years could be due to raising the level of professionalism in the entire front office?

I think everything changed when Tim Leiweke was put in charge of MLSE.  He changed the culture in the front office to the pursuit of wins and hardware as the top priority.  Everything else followed from that.  As a TFC fan, I am eternally grateful to Leiweke for turning the team from a laughing stock to something to be proud of.  Unfortunately, that culture is probably costing the inexperienced Canadian players.  If they don't give the team the best chance of winning right now, they won't see the field much.  I wouldn't blame Vanney too much for that, it seems to be more of an institutional bias.

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I think Toronto FC has given a lot of chances to Canadians. Oso, Laryea, and Akinola start. They're about to debut a 16 year old. Nelson has gotten minutes. 

 

Has there been a Canadian who left TFC recently and became a lot better on another team? Hamilton, Chapman, etc. go to other teams and pretty much resume where they left off. At most. 

 

It might be that TFC has a higher standard that applies to everyone. 

Edited by One American

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29 minutes ago, One American said:

I think Toronto FC has given a lot of chances to Canadians. Oso, Laryea, and Akinola start. They're about to debut a 16 year old. Nelson has gotten minutes. 

 

Has there been a Canadian who left TFC recently and became a lot better on another team? Hamilton, Chapman, etc. go to other teams and pretty much resume where they left off. At most. 

 

It might be that TFC has a higher standard that applies to everyone. 

It's a fool's game to look at the players' fortunes after leaving the club as retrospective justification for a failure to properly develop a player to their maximum potential. The players had very promising prospects when they arrived at TFC. They then burned their prime development years at a club who didn't care to put resources into nurturing their obvious talents. Had they spent those years at a club more committed to player development, they probably emerge as better players on the other side. Once you squander those prime development years, you can't get them back. Liam Fraser, right now, is probably as good as he's ever going to be, if he stays at TFC and nothing else changes. If he wants to grow and improve as a player, he has to get out soon.

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i guess we will see if the club will resign him,its up to him he will hold the cards, maybe the club dont rate him like we do.the fact they signed Priso ,maybe the writing on the wall for Liam.you got bradley delgado oso and priso okello at the DM pos.

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39 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

It's a fool's game to look at the players' fortunes after leaving the club as retrospective justification for a failure to properly develop a player to their maximum potential. The players had very promising prospects when they arrived at TFC. They then burned their prime development years at a club who didn't care to put resources into nurturing their obvious talents. Had they spent those years at a club more committed to player development, they probably emerge as better players on the other side. Once you squander those prime development years, you can't get them back. Liam Fraser, right now, is probably as good as he's ever going to be, if he stays at TFC and nothing else changes. If he wants to grow and improve as a player, he has to get out soon.

Or maybe sometimes a player in the end was just not good enough plain and simple. Not every player who comes out of the academy and is signed for the first team is going to work out no matter how much playing time you give them. At times I feel people think that every player signed to a first team contract is going to work out, and if they don’t it’s always because they didn’t get enough first team minutes . Sometimes it’s simply because you just ain’t good enough unfortunately. This reminds me of players I’ve known over the years that when you ask about their playing days they always tell you the reason they didn’t make it was because of either politics or they had a bad career ending injury for the reasons they didn’t make it in the end lol, but I hardly ever hear them say , that in the end they were just not good enough lol!

Edited by SoccMan

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2 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

Or maybe sometimes a player in the end was just not good enough plain and simple. Not every player who comes out of the academy and is signed for the first team is going to work out no matter how much playing time you give them. At times I feel people think that every player signed to a first team contract is going to work out, and if they don’t it’s always because they didn’t get enough first team minutes . Sometimes it’s simply because you just ain’t good enough unfortunately. This reminds me of players I’ve known over the years that when you ask about their playing days they always tell you the reason they didn’t make it was because of either politics or they had a bad career ending injury for the reasons they didn’t make it in the end lol, but I hardly ever hear them say , that in the end they were just not good enough lol!

I'm not talking about every player from the TFC Academy. The main topic of conversation is Liam Fraser. We know he's good enough because we've already seen him perform at both club and international level. With regards to Chapman and Hamilton, they may not have been world beaters, but I have no doubt that they'd have become better players had they been in a better environment (for them, individually) between the ages of 18 and 22.

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23 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

Or maybe sometimes a player in the end was just not good enough plain and simple. Not every player who comes out of the academy and is signed for the first team is going to work out no matter how much playing time you give them. At times I feel people think that every player signed to a first team contract is going to work out, and if they don’t it’s always because they didn’t get enough first team minutes .

If that's the case then, isn't the fact that so few of the 25 graduated players have become regulars is in itself an indictment of the program?

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3 hours ago, reggietfc said:

i guess we will see if the club will resign him,its up to him he will hold the cards, maybe the club dont rate him like we do.the fact they signed Priso ,maybe the writing on the wall for Liam.you got bradley delgado oso and priso okello at the DM pos.

I think that signing might be a defensive move to keep him from jumping somewhere else...like the Peruzza signing.  

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13 hours ago, El Hombre said:

If that's the case then, isn't the fact that so few of the 25 graduated players have become regulars is in itself an indictment of the program?

Yes and no but I remember reading a report about English Academies that said only one in 200 players actually become regulars on the first team of clubs . For all the money these clubs put into a academies and it’s not a cheap endeavour for these clubs, love them or hate them TFC like most pro clubs in the world spend a fortune on their academies and sometimes one wonders if it’s really worth it in the end. Better to just invest in a league like a League 1 Ontario and just develop players from their and then have a yearly draft and teams pick the best from the crop. That’s why I think a new league like the CPL should just stick to this way of developing players. Each team helps out leagues like a league 1 Ontario across Canada and develop players there, it’s much more cheaper than running full fledged academies in the end. 

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8 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

Yes and no but I remember reading a report about English Academies that said only one in 200 players actually become regulars on the first team of clubs . For all the money these clubs put into a academies and it’s not a cheap endeavour for these clubs, love them or hate them TFC like most pro clubs in the world spend a fortune on their academies and sometimes one wonders if it’s really worth it in the end. Better to just invest in a league like a League 1 Ontario and just develop players from their and then have a yearly draft and teams pick the best from the crop. That’s why I think a new league like the CPL should just stick to this way of developing players. Each team helps out leagues like a league 1 Ontario across Canada and develop players there, it’s much more cheaper than running full fledged academies in the end. 

England is a bad comparison, because it’s known that they are the top league in the world from a money and player standpoint. They are at the pinnacle of the football world where they prefer to buy proven vs player development (giving youth players meaningful minutes) is not at the forefront no matter how much they say it is. 

This is exactly where MLS is. A lot of the top teams, barely field Americans in their starting 11’s. Why because everyone has the opportunity to win now, so they buy now. The new wave for MLS franchises is buying young from the Americas.

Which brings me to the final point - the other leagues that are selling leagues give their young youth prospects opportunities a lot earlier and a lot more due to their club/business model that a few players have to be sold every so often to sustain the club.

The CPL has gone this route, with mandating that players U21 must play a certain amount of minutes. So the model of scouting players from League 1 makes complete sense because they are looking for free agents, that can make the difference/step up and potentially be sold on (Borges, Ongaro, Brim, Waterman, etc).

Liam is almost 23, he ultimately needs to move on/change his environment from TFC before it’s too “late”. @SthMelbRed perfectly referenced two players, who fell into this category. Whereas I think Mark Anthony Kaye shouldn’t be considered the only anomaly. But he is. 

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1 hour ago, Shway said:

England is a bad comparison, because it’s known that they are the top league in the world from a money and player standpoint. They are at the pinnacle of the football world where they prefer to buy proven vs player development (giving youth players meaningful minutes) is not at the forefront no matter how much they say it is. 

This is exactly where MLS is. A lot of the top teams, barely field Americans in their starting 11’s. Why because everyone has the opportunity to win now, so they buy now. The new wave for MLS franchises is buying young from the Americas.

Which brings me to the final point - the other leagues that are selling leagues give their young youth prospects opportunities a lot earlier and a lot more due to their club/business model that a few players have to be sold every so often to sustain the club.

The CPL has gone this route, with mandating that players U21 must play a certain amount of minutes. So the model of scouting players from League 1 makes complete sense because they are looking for free agents, that can make the difference/step up and potentially be sold on (Borges, Ongaro, Brim, Waterman, etc).

Liam is almost 23, he ultimately needs to move on/change his environment from TFC before it’s too “late”. @SthMelbRed perfectly referenced two players, who fell into this category. Whereas I think Mark Anthony Kaye shouldn’t be considered the only anomaly. But he is. 

I completely agree with your post but I highlighted the part on the CanPL because I feel this is an argument for keeping the MLS clubs in MLS.

Essentially our current situation is the best of both worlds. CanPL is the development league. MLS is the win now league. We take advantage of both. This is a very good balance for us right now and will continue to be as both leagues develop down their seperate paths.

As I see it, the Americans are producing and selling players at a rapid rate, but it would be much, much, more if MLS had a CanPL mindset.

As it were though, a lot of teams opt for young foreign players (to sell on), pushing young American players down to the USL, where it is hard to move back up and hard to move to Europe. I think the CanPL already sells more to Europe than the USL by percentage, but I could be wrong.

You may wonder why even bother with MLS in this case, but I would say that our teams are much less prone to this buy/sell foreign model. The young players at Montreal and Vancouver are largely Canadian, while Toronto FC are not concerned with selling. They still have 2-3 Canadian internationals starting on any given day, which is not the case at some American clubs (in terms of American internationals).

Nobody knows if these trends will continue, but I would personally like to see Toronto continue to be the leading club in MLS while getting more Canadian. I want them to further cement their place as the pinnacle of Canadian club soccer, where the best domestic Canadian internationals play. Then, I am happy to see Vancouver and Montreal continue to improve, with a slant towards up-and-coming youth and full Canadian internationals. Meanwhile, under that we will have the CanPL grow and do it's job developing Canadians, some moving to MLS but most moving to Europe.

That gives us a better pyramid than if all the Canadian clubs were in CanPL.

 

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Oso goes down injured in the 20th minute tonight and Vanney instead of bringing on Fraser who is fit and has played recently he ******* brings on Bradley who is just coming back from an injury and hasn't played in months... Sigh

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30 minutes ago, Nate3322 said:

Oso goes down injured in the 20th minute tonight and Vanney instead of bringing on Fraser who is fit and has played recently he ******* brings on Bradley who is just coming back from an injury and hasn't played in months... Sigh

Bradley is ready to play clearly. 

 

Lol at complaining about using Bradley over Fraser. 

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22 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

Bradley is ready to play clearly. 

 

Lol at complaining about using Bradley over Fraser. 

My concern was more about Bradley's fitness. Fraser is currently healthy, fitter and sharper as he played the full 90 against Cincinnati a week ago compared to Bradley who has been off injured for a month it just seems more logical to me to not risk Bradley tonight when he might not be a 100% yet

Edited by Nate3322

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10 hours ago, SoccMan said:

Yes and no but I remember reading a report about English Academies that said only one in 200 players actually become regulars on the first team of clubs .

The difference between TFC and the English Academies is that TFC has little to no competition for young talent in Ontario.  I think if there was one academy for all of London, one would hope that it would be a better than 1 in 200 ratio.

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