Liam Fraser

[Mikmacdo]

Wow the delusional folks in this thread, Laryea carrying Vanney? He probably would have been in the CPL if it wasnt for Vanney seeing potential in him as a rightback. 

Fraser just isnt as good as Osorio or Delgado and thats okay because hes younger. 

[narduch]

3 minutes ago, LeoH037 said:

Yes... Vanney had no impact on Laryea's current career transformation and trajectory(the guy was on his way out of MLS). But at least you make your opinions of being here to hate on Vanney clear, so fair enough.

So one player after 6 years is supposed to be proof that he is good at developing players?

This is the Fraser thread anyway. I'm of the opinion Fraser needs to leave TFC to further his career.

If I was an agent with a young and up and coming player I would not direct them to TFC.

[LeoH037]

1 minute ago, narduch said:

So one player after 6 years is supposed to be proof that he is good at developing players?

This is the Fraser thread anyway. I'm of the opinion Fraser needs to leave TFC to further his career.

If I was an agent with a young and up and coming player I would not direct them to TFC.

 A coach's job isn't to just develop players. but okay, got a fringe player on his way out of MLS, transformed him to a position he never has played before, and said kid is not arguably one of, if not, the best fullback in MLS... but lets go out of the way to find every excuse under the sun give Vanney zero credit for it... or better yet, lets twist it as another reason why he is a poor coach (and since it seem there's need to mention it, yes Laryea also deserves credit for it too).

[narduch]

5 minutes ago, LeoH037 said:

 A coach's job isn't to just develop players. but okay, got a fringe player on his way out of MLS, transformed him to a position he never has played before, and said kid is not arguably one of, if not, the best fullback in MLS... but lets go out of the way to find every excuse under the sun give Vanney zero credit for it... or better yet, lets twist it as another reason why he is a poor coach (and since it seem there's need to mention it, yes Laryea also deserves credit for it too).

You are putting words in my mouth.

I just think Vanney is an overrated coach. 

I watch him every game and I think he could get more out of his team.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, El Diego said:

If you want to discuss whether TFC is the right environment for a certain player to develop, that's fine. One can do that in a vacuum. What is odd to me is that many non-TFC fans have strong opinions about Vanney as a coach and it is hard not to think that these opinions are partially (or wholly) because of their belief that he doesn't play young Canadians enough. (full disclosure: I am a TFC fan and I think Vanney is a good coach, though certainly not perfect)

If you really want to take this exercise of is TFC developing Canadian talent well, why not literally do a case by case basis? The most interesting case is, in fact, Liam Fraser. I love watching him play and I think he is capable of a bigger role. I don't think TFC are necessarily wrong in not playing him more, but I see the argument. It may be in his best interest to leave TFC to get high level first team minutes on a weekly basis, but he may also be a regular starter as soon as next season. Staying and going both have risks and he should have a frank discussion with TFC. I think TFC has been overall positive to his development. These things can all be true at the same time.

 

Great post.

The risks are not brought up as often as the benefits, which is interesting but predictable. It is easy for us to get dreamy when a player switches clubs, especially one that is seen as being held back by Vanney.

[Obinna]

17 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

Wow the delusional folks in this thread, Laryea carrying Vanney? He probably would have been in the CPL if it wasnt for Vanney seeing potential in him as a rightback. 

Fraser just isnt as good as Osorio or Delgado and thats okay because hes younger. 

And further to my point above, when this is pointed out we tend to focus on where Fraser IS better than Delgado, without considering the totality of where both of them are at. Delgado is the better player on the whole (I think Fraser has a higher ceiling fwiw).

So another good example of selective judgement. Again, not surprising. We are Canadian supporters.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Obinna

[LeoH037]

21 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

Wow the delusional folks in this thread, Laryea carrying Vanney? He probably would have been in the CPL if it wasnt for Vanney seeing potential in him as a rightback. 

Fraser just isnt as good as Osorio or Delgado and thats okay because hes younger. 

Be careful where you make such comments 😂

[Obinna]

Mikmacdo is never afraid to lay out his opinions and tell it how it is (or how he thinks it is). I respect it. 

[LeoH037]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Mikmacdo is never afraid to lay out his opinions and tell it how it is (or how he thinks it is). I respect it. 

Just don't want him upsetting a few folk on here 😅

[SoccMan]

A lot of this has to do with the market TFC plays in. If they want to be at the very least relevant they need to be a top team in the league on an almost consistent basis. There are sports fans I work with , big Raptors , Leafs and Jays fans who would be hard pressed to name you even one player on TFC’s roster and they all live in the Toronto area. Therefore, keep having losing seasons and you even lose the casual fan from caring. First of all it’s the North American mentality of only really caring if the league your city plays in is the best league in the world . If it’s not then good luck getting most North Americans to really care. The MLS is definitely not even remotely close to being a top world league like the other North American sports leagues are. Therefore, the only way to get a bit of attention is by being good. Therefore, as an organization playing in this environment TFC is only going to take so many chances on playing unproven Canadian young players. They will play the odd one but are not going to put more than a couple on the field at the same time game in game out. The only way they put more Canadians on the field for now would be to go out and buy proven Canadian players like a Larin, Hoilet etc. In time this may change but for now they are going to continue to purchase players to keep them on a winning track, because they have to be if they want even a small fraction of the Toronto sports fans to care.

[Kadenge]

I'm not  sure what Fraser has to gain by staying at TFC. Its crystal clear that Vanney does not trust/rate him. He obviously has his reasons which hopefully he has communicated to Fraser.   TFC opted to go without a defensive mid in Bradley's absence  at the start of the season and more recently. The results have been great...so the lineup is working. When Bradley returns he will move into the DM role....crystal clear. Fraser needs to play and play a lot to take his game to the next level. That's not going to happen at TFC and that's the way the cookie crumbles. Time to move on. Are there risks? Sure....

[El Hombre]

1 hour ago, Free kick said:

i want to see canadians play as much as anybody but those spots have to be earned beacuse at the end of the day, the results is what count.  And it is what has to count.

 

38 minutes ago, Free kick said:

i am happy as long as the developing canadians are getting a fair chance.   And in my view, from what i can tell, they mostly have.  I have had my share of back and forths with people here (to put it mildly) over the fact that some thought that a certain canadians (in the past) werent being given fair chance.  I called out that i didnt see, why based on their past contributions,  they deserved more playing time.  So i see both sides.   But with current crop, i think we need to see more in order pass judgement.  I like so far what i saw from Fraser and we need to see what the others can do.

This mindset I wholeheartedly disagree with.  And this is mostly why I'm not a big fan of Vanney.

This idea that kids must "earn" playing time does such a disservice to those young players because they aren't established enough to "earn" a place in the garbage minutes they get.  And you either get into an endless cycle of bringing in high-priced talent or the team crashes and burns.  So far, TFC has been the former.  Hopefully they don't become the latter.  The way to do that is to blood some of the younger players properly.

Young players need to be in an environment that gives them real playing time in addition to allowing them to make mistakes.  All things being equal, playing a 28 year-old veteran is the safe move to win right now, but playing the 18 year-old will lay the groundwork for being successful for years to come.  Giving kids a couple minutes here or there is neither good for them nor does it constitute a fair chance because they don't have the experience to know how to go out and impose themselves on a game in a 15-minute substitute appearance.

Take a look at Osorio.  Most people here agree that he's a quality player and a very important cog for the Toronto midfield.  The main reason he is who he is is because he joined TFC when they had a terrible midfield.  He made appearances in 11 straight games (mostly as a sub) before he got consistent starts.  And he has since turned into an exceptional player.  I remember watching him with the U20s and he was good, but he didn't stand out (not like Nelson did with the U17s or Okello with the U20s).  And now he's a damn important part of that midfield and has been for years.  That's because he had consistent opportunities as a young player and grew into what he is.

Now compare that with Nelson.  He gets a start in a knock-out game in MLSisBack and then sits on the bench for the next seven games and doesn't see the field again until two months later.  He's now played a total of 90 minutes over the last six games.  How is he supposed to "earn" playing time when he only ever sees the field sporadically?  The TFC midfield is good, but if you want Nelson to become a key player like Osorio you have to give him a consistent chance and make him work through mistakes.  If Osorio were a 20 year-old, I think he'd have a tough time breaking into this midfield without the coach giving him a chance and look at what would've been missed if that were the case. 

And, to bring it back on topic, I think that is exactly what is happening with Fraser.  The coaching staff should have some sort of plan for the young players.  So far, I don't see it.  Right now, TFC have Fraser, Okello and Priso as young prospects in the middle of the park.  What is the plan for them?  How are they going to truly "earn" their playing time when they are competing with Delgado, Osorio, Pozuelo, Deleon and soon Bradley.  All seem to get a considerable amount of playing time that will make it difficult for one of those three to see the field on a regular basis, let alone all three.  So, what is the plan for them then?  Apples to apples, none of those three are better than their competition right now.  However, their ceiling could be much higher?  But if the mindset is to win now at all costs and give those three garbage minutes and then expect them to turn the game on its head in those garbage minutes, is just unrealistic.

This idea that young players need to "earn" it over their competition is so counter-intuitive to building a long term successful program.  The coaching staff needs to identify who the key young talents are and build a system where these talents can get regular playing time and ample opportunity to show that they belong or that they can improve.  I don't get the warm fuzzy that Vanney is doing that and that is my concern.

[Free kick]

31 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

 

This mindset I wholeheartedly disagree with.  And this is mostly why I'm not a big fan of Vanney.

This idea that kids must "earn" playing time does such a disservice to those young players because they aren't established enough to "earn" a place in the garbage minutes they get.  And you either get into an endless cycle of bringing in high-priced talent or the team crashes and burns.  So far, TFC has been the former.  Hopefully they don't become the latter.  The way to do that is to blood some of the younger players properly.

Young players need to be in an environment that gives them real playing time in addition to allowing them to make mistakes.  All things being equal, playing a 28 year-old veteran is the safe move to win right now, but playing the 18 year-old will lay the groundwork for being successful for years to come.  Giving kids a couple minutes here or there is neither good for them nor does it constitute a fair chance because they don't have the experience to know how to go out and impose themselves on a game in a 15-minute substitute appearance.

Take a look at Osorio.  Most people here agree that he's a quality player and a very important cog for the Toronto midfield.  The main reason he is who he is is because he joined TFC when they had a terrible midfield.  He made appearances in 11 straight games (mostly as a sub) before he got consistent starts.  And he has since turned into an exceptional player.  I remember watching him with the U20s and he was good, but he didn't stand out (not like Nelson did with the U17s or Okello with the U20s).  And now he's a damn important part of that midfield and has been for years.  That's because he had consistent opportunities as a young player and grew into what he is.

Now compare that with Nelson.  He gets a start in a knock-out game in MLSisBack and then sits on the bench for the next seven games and doesn't see the field again until two months later.  He's now played a total of 90 minutes over the last six games.  How is he supposed to "earn" playing time when he only ever sees the field sporadically?  The TFC midfield is good, but if you want Nelson to become a key player like Osorio you have to give him a consistent chance and make him work through mistakes.  If Osorio were a 20 year-old, I think he'd have a tough time breaking into this midfield without the coach giving him a chance and look at what would've been missed if that were the case. 

And, to bring it back on topic, I think that is exactly what is happening with Fraser.  The coaching staff should have some sort of plan for the young players.  So far, I don't see it.  Right now, TFC have Fraser, Okello and Priso as young prospects in the middle of the park.  What is the plan for them?  How are they going to truly "earn" their playing time when they are competing with Delgado, Osorio, Pozuelo, Deleon and soon Bradley.  All seem to get a considerable amount of playing time that will make it difficult for one of those three to see the field on a regular basis, let alone all three.  So, what is the plan for them then?  Apples to apples, none of those three are better than their competition right now.  However, their ceiling could be much higher?  But if the mindset is to win now at all costs and give those three garbage minutes and then expect them to turn the game on its head in those garbage minutes, is just unrealistic.

This idea that young players need to "earn" it over their competition is so counter-intuitive to building a long term successful program.  The coaching staff needs to identify who the key young talents are and build a system where these talents can get regular playing time and ample opportunity to show that they belong or that they can improve.  I don't get the warm fuzzy that Vanney is doing that and that is my concern.

Ok I dont disagree with anything you advocate. But the problem is that TFC has a team that tops the standings and is arguably the best team in the league.   So in essence thats the problem.   And the current players are what got them there and got the coach the hardware.  So we cant expect the coach to say, “hey, lets take a step back for sake of development”.   Thats hard, if not impossible to do when you have titles within reach.   What you are advocating is more suited to where Vancouver is.  But how many people would trade Vancouver’s position for TFC’s position right now?
 

edit.:  now that i think about it,   you make a valid point that it doesnt make much sence to have a bench full of teenagers.   And probably hurts their development.  But where else can you send them?
 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Free kick

[Obinna]

Very good points now on both sides of this. It is a good problem to have at least for Toronto.

As Canadian fans, I think we want Toronto FC to be more of an Ajax than a Bayern Munich. Right now TFC are the latter. I think the club wants to be more like the former. The transition is not easy to make. 

 

Edit: No Aron Winter jokes please

Edited October 16, 2020 by Obinna

[El Hombre]

7 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Ok I dont disagree with anything you advocate. But the problem is that TFC has a team that tops the standings and is arguably the best team in the league.   So in essence thats the problem.   And the current players are what got them there and got the coach the hardware.  So we cant expect the coach to say, “hey, lets take a step back for sake of development”.   Thats hard, if not impossible to do when you have titles within reach.   What you are advocating is more suited to where Vancouver is.  But how many people would trade Vancouver’s position for TFC’s position right now. 
 

No, that's not it.  It's precisely the coach's responsibility to do exactly that in TFC's case.  Or at least have a plan for that.  If you are coaching TFC and you have Fraser/Shaffelburg/Nelson/Okello/Marshall-Rutty/Priso/Perruzza, you need to identify which one of those seven are true gamers and make an effort to involve them.  Having them sit on the bench game after game does nothing for their development.  Once you've identified which ones are going to be your horses, you need to give them 20 minutes one game, 15 the next.  If Nelson had received consistent minutes leading up to his start, you would've seen a much different player.

You don't have to start all seven every game.  You can still play your first-choice squad the majority of the game but then have a cogent plan for at least one or two of your star kids.  I don't see that happening, even with the option for FIVE substitutes.  This is the most opportune time to do this and still very little difference in Vanney's approach.  Is Mullins the future of this team or is Marshall-Rutty?  Is Nelson the future or Endoh?

Your thought that this is more suited for Vancouver is completely wrong.  Vancouver doesn't have the option because they're not a great team.  Baldisimo is forced into playing time.  This can be a good situation but it also makes the coach's job easier in this respect.  He's forced to see which young players can sink or swim.  When you are coaching a stacked team like TFC the coach has to be proactive in doing this and the good coaches are.  I don't see Vanney doing this.

[Free kick]

6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

As Canadian fans, I think we want Toronto FC to be more of an Ajax than a Bayern Munich. 

Yes.  Do we want the Bayern munich trophies?  Or the players that Ajax develops and that ultimately sells?   Toronto is the kind of town that is former iMO..

Edited October 16, 2020 by Free kick

[Kadenge]

El Hombre, I think the best we can hope for is that TFC continue to loan their young players out like they have done recently with Okello to Koge, and Dunn to  CPL. That may be a positive change with Curtis. These kids have to play a lot to develop and it's not going to happen with TFC. We all want Liam to get a loan and Liverpool know that's what he needs as well.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Kadenge

[narduch]

1 hour ago, SoccMan said:

A lot of this has to do with the market TFC plays in. If they want to be at the very least relevant they need to be a top team in the league on an almost consistent basis. There are sports fans I work with , big Raptors , Leafs and Jays fans who would be hard pressed to name you even one player on TFC’s roster and they all live in the Toronto area. Therefore, keep having losing seasons and you even lose the casual fan from caring. First of all it’s the North American mentality of only really caring if the league your city plays in is the best league in the world . If it’s not then good luck getting most North Americans to really care. The MLS is definitely not even remotely close to being a top world league like the other North American sports leagues are. Therefore, the only way to get a bit of attention is by being good. Therefore, as an organization playing in this environment TFC is only going to take so many chances on playing unproven Canadian young players. They will play the odd one but are not going to put more than a couple on the field at the same time game in game out. The only way they put more Canadians on the field for now would be to go out and buy proven Canadian players like a Larin, Hoilet etc. In time this may change but for now they are going to continue to purchase players to keep them on a winning track, because they have to be if they want even a small fraction of the Toronto sports fans to care.

The Giovinco departure knocked a lot of the buzz out for TFC.

Its not really fair to Pozuelo who is a great player in his own right. And I do think that there is a bit of fair weather Italian-Canadians abandoning the team.

Plus add in the Raptors championship run and it really isn't the same as 2017 anymore for TFC.

 

 

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, Kadenge said:

El Hombre, I think the best we can hope for is that TFC continue to loan their young players out like they have done recently with Okello to Koge, and Dunn to  CPL. That may be a positive change with Curtis. These kids have to play a lot to develop and it's not going to happen with TFC. We all want Liam to get a loan and Liverpool know that's what he needs as well.

Two points:

1. The recent trend of loaning out to Denmark is positive. I hope to see it continue. It may be a future way to sell players into Europe. It can help relieve the bottle neck. In building those relationships, the club may also get some good players from that area in return. 
2. Liam Millar to TFC on a short term loan...why not. The season is almost over, but if he cannot move within Europe, it may not be a bad idea on the surface. I do not know how appealing going to Hartford would be, but one of his U-23 teammates is there. He has a history at the club (though perhaps the way that relationship ended means it may not be on the table). 

[Nate3322]

1 hour ago, Free kick said:

Yes.  Do we want the Bayern munich trophies?  Or the players that Ajax develops and that ultimately sells?   Toronto is the kind of town that is former iMO..

What if I told you that we could play and develop our youth and win trophies at the same time. If Bayern can do it we can too. Looking at their 2013 treble winning season they played tons of homegrown and youth players like Bastian Schweinstieger, Thomas Müller, Toni Kroos, Philipp Lahm, David Alaba all of whom were young players that came from the Bayern academy and were given a chance and they became superstars. If we actually made the effort to play our young players consistently even if it's 10-20 minutes at the end of game we could develop lots of young players to sell abroad or to have the next Osorio. I'm not a fan of Vanney in the slightest mainly because he doesn't play youth he'd rather sub on Endoh, Mullins or Zavaleta and I can't fucking stand that he doesn't give youngsters a proper chance.

[Free kick]

2 hours ago, El Hombre said:

No, that's not it.  It's precisely the coach's responsibility to do exactly that in TFC's case.  Or at least have a plan for that.  If you are coaching TFC and you have Fraser/Shaffelburg/Nelson/Okello/Marshall-Rutty/Priso/Perruzza, you need to identify which one of those seven are true gamers and make an effort to involve them.  Having them sit on the bench game after game does nothing for their development.  Once you've identified which ones are going to be your horses, you need to give them 20 minutes one game, 15 the next.  If Nelson had received consistent minutes leading up to his start, you would've seen a much different player.

You don't have to start all seven every game.  You can still play your first-choice squad the majority of the game but then have a cogent plan for at least one or two of your star kids.  I don't see that happening, even with the option for FIVE substitutes.  This is the most opportune time to do this and still very little difference in Vanney's approach.  Is Mullins the future of this team or is Marshall-Rutty?  Is Nelson the future or Endoh?

Your thought that this is more suited for Vancouver is completely wrong.  Vancouver doesn't have the option because they're not a great team.  Baldisimo is forced into playing time.  This can be a good situation but it also makes the coach's job easier in this respect.  He's forced to see which young players can sink or swim.  When you are coaching a stacked team like TFC the coach has to be proactive in doing this and the good coaches are.  I don't see Vanney doing this.

Before i get to my main point, i do agree that there have been substition chnaces whereby there was an opportunity to play some of these kids and he didnt.   For example i thought Fraser should have played much more than he has since Bradley went out with an injury.  But i believe he may have had an injury himself.  As for Mullins and Endoh, yeah i agree i would much rather see any of these kids play instaed. But when your managing people, decisions have to based need and situation not nationality.  So you would have to release endoh.  
 

But ultimately its game situations that will mostly dictate which subs are made.  You seem suggest that the process of identifying the “true gamers” is “an exact science”.  It just simply isnt.   To truly know,  you have to play them.  And they have to start.  And you have to give them more minutes.  Then you will know if there is a “gamer” or two in that group.  Inevitably,  there will be one or two or more who are the opposite of gamers and your team record will suffer in your efforts to find out.   Why? Because when you have decided to do this and go this route, it will mean that somebody else has to sit and that someone will be someone who you know can help you now or you know what they can do.  So it is, like i said, very much a dilema of a step forward or a step backward for the sake of development.  So it is easier to do when you are vancouver. 
 

It must also be said:  we saw the other night, a 17 yr old kid from NYRB come in and deliver a cracker of a goal.  Apparently he did something similar in in his previous and first outing.   Do you think that if one these TFC kids replicated that for TFC in his first two outings that Vanney wouldnt find spot for him the next game?    Like it or not,  these things must also be acknowledged. In show business, they say you have one opportunity to make a first impression. Alot of it (not all) is really up to these kids and the talent they possess.  You could have the greatest dev. plan in the world but its also up to their talent and work.  

Edited October 16, 2020 by Free kick

[Bison44]

^^^  Some coaches let the kids have some freedom to succed eh? Other coaches keep a tight reign on and bench them at a whim and he play 28year old journeymen the rest of the season.  Which is better for the kids, which is better for the team, what gets you more success in the long run? Lots of ways to skin a cat, and everyone is different and thats cool.  

 Vanney doesnt have to play them, bring in vets every season to replace players who age out, but then move the kids out.  Which is what we were advocating for Fraser in the first place before the thread got derailed by Vanney fans wanting to debate his worth.  I dont care who the coach is, whether its Pep or Fergie or Dale mitchell,  if he doesnt rate the player, and you are not in the teams plans, why not move on??  Irregardless of TFC's success or Vanneys coaching skills.  

[narduch]

I love the irony of people bringing up Millar in this thread. A player cut by TFC'S academy 

[Obinna]

45 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

^^^  Some coaches let the kids have some freedom to succed eh? Other coaches keep a tight reign on and bench them at a whim and he play 28year old journeymen the rest of the season.  Which is better for the kids, which is better for the team, what gets you more success in the long run? Lots of ways to skin a cat, and everyone is different and thats cool.  

 Vanney doesnt have to play them, bring in vets every season to replace players who age out, but then move the kids out.  Which is what we were advocating for Fraser in the first place before the thread got derailed by Vanney fans wanting to debate his worth.  I dont care who the coach is, whether its Pep or Fergie or Dale mitchell,  if he doesnt rate the player, and you are not in the teams plans, why not move on??  Irregardless of TFC's success or Vanneys coaching skills.  

I guess that is the question for Fraser.

Something must be keeping him. On some level he must believe he is good enough for a bigger role. I do not think Vanney would lead him on intentionally for the sake of it, but every coach needs willing bench guys and will not want his good bench options to depart. 

This is his predicament as I see it. And to be considered a good bench option at 22 years old for the top MLS team is pretty good. Just to give another perspective on your "he doesn't rate the player" comment.

At some point Fraser is going to leave if he is ambitious enough. Right now, he is part of a winning club, but he also is not playing as much as he would like and probably believes he should be playing more and so he continues to stay and make his case. There is little I see wrong with that at this stage.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Obinna

[red card]

3 hours ago, SoccMan said:

A lot of this has to do with the market TFC plays in. If they want to be at the very least relevant they need to be a top team in the league on an almost consistent basis. There are sports fans I work with , big Raptors , Leafs and Jays fans who would be hard pressed to name you even one player on TFC’s roster and they all live in the Toronto area. Therefore, keep having losing seasons and you even lose the casual fan from caring. First of all it’s the North American mentality of only really caring if the league your city plays in is the best league in the world . If it’s not then good luck getting most North Americans to really care. The MLS is definitely not even remotely close to being a top world league like the other North American sports leagues are. Therefore, the only way to get a bit of attention is by being good. Therefore, as an organization playing in this environment TFC is only going to take so many chances on playing unproven Canadian young players. They will play the odd one but are not going to put more than a couple on the field at the same time game in game out. The only way they put more Canadians on the field for now would be to go out and buy proven Canadian players like a Larin, Hoilet etc. In time this may change but for now they are going to continue to purchase players to keep them on a winning track, because they have to be if they want even a small fraction of the Toronto sports fans to care.

When TFC started out, they went after the hardcore base rather than than the casuals that MLS 1.0 was based on. They were a bad team but still were one of better attendances in MLS.

They're spending big money because that is the business model of MLSE. And they believe they'll get their ROI from upselling the hard core base and expanding it in the long run (but will need help from the overall growth of the sport and MLS being more viewed as a top 5 league). MLSE also has a number of teams in its stable, so some TFC gains are cannibalizing sales from other MLSE teams.

The hard core TFC base do care about developing Canadian academy players and seeing them get minutes in MLS. So, if not deemed ready for MLS yet, as others have mentioned, TFC needs to get into the loan game to see if they'll sink or swim. It's what every other major football club does but instead they manage TFC player development like it was the Leafs or Raptors situation.

Winning gets casuals into TFC in the short run as evidenced by the TV ratings when they got to the MLS Cup. However, since MLS isn't the pinnacle of the sport, if these casuals stick with the sport, they also add other football leagues to their diet. Most casuals haven't stuck around. MLS Cup ratings fell to 1 million last year from a peak of 3 million. And regular season TFC ratings are again below 100k and being matched by the CPL this year.