Liam Fraser

[gator]

There are a few posters on here who really seem to think Fraser is a bad footballer and not deserving of a chance to play for the mighty TFC, everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't see where it is coming from, he has looked quite good in his limited playing time IMHO! This is a Canadian Soccer forum and I would think most people would want him to get more of a chance and succeed, why would anyone not want that?

[LeoH037]

3 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

It hurts my feelings that you can't distinguish between these two statements.

A - Vanney has had his contract extended by TFC. Fraser should move on to find the playing time it appears won't be coming under Vanney at TFC.

and

B - TFC should never have extended Vanney's contract because he won't play Fraser and that makes me angry.

 

Many people have been saying A in the last page or two of this thread. Nobody, outside of your delusions, has been saying B. Yet, you continue to argue against A by insisting that it means B, even after several have pointed out your error. Therefore, I am left with no other conclusion than you are either very stupid and can't understand the difference or you're intentionally presenting as a disingenuous dickhead in order to attack Liam Fraser and those who wish to see him presented with fair opportunity to succeed. It can be one of those things, or maybe a bit of both. But, it can't be neither.

Why so heated friend. Some deductive reasoning based on the history of comments directed against Vanney is all it takes to read between the lines. The only delusion here is the one you seem to hold of someone attacking Fraser, so either you're a burner account of sorts, an overly sensitive relative of the guy, or just emotionally fragile enough so as to become so unjustifiable upset whenever someone has a different opinion in regards to a topic as you. Not at all disingenuous, I sincerely do not rate Fraser are highly as you, and I don't think losing him would be a blow to TFC, I guess it makes me horrible human being for believing that? But sure, I'm the "dickhead" for stating my opinion, when you are the one going out of your way to personally attack me, ookkaaay

[Bison44]

^^^ Says the guy who jumps in a thread about Fraser to white knight Vanney.......okayyyyyy

[LeoH037]

13 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

^^^ Says the guy who jumps in a thread about Fraser to white knight Vanney.......okayyyyyy

I'm not allowed to think Vanney has done good for TFC?

[Bison44]

You are complaining about Red going to bat for Fraser, like he is related, yet you jumped into a thread just to defend Vanney when you inferred/deduced/read between the lines he was not geting his due.  Now which train of thought probably is more apt to be in the Fraser thread?  Go start a "Vanney is great thread" if you really want to show support for him.  

[Corazon]

I am not a Vanney fan at all.  I think he is an average coach at best but TFC play a good brand of football.  To me Vanney struggles most with his substitutions and player rotation the most.

However, TFC is playing some of its best football ever at the moment and they're doing it without Bradley at defensive midfield.  But they are also doing it without Fraser in defensive midfield as well.  Everyone on here can talk about Toronto's big budget being a factor but the truth is that TFC is playing its best footy currently and its doing it with two homegrown players in defensive mid with Delgado & Osorio.  

I like Fraser but I also do believe that if it wasn't for his exceptional game vs USA, the hype for him would be far less than it is now.

With all that being said, it is clear that Fraser needs to get out as soon as possible.  He is not in Vanney's plans.  Even when Bradley is injured for a long period, Vanney chooses to move around his midfield (such as dropping Osorio deeper) instead of putting Fraser in as Bradley's direct replacement.  The same can be said in last game when protecting a 1-0 lead, Vanney would rather play a fatigued midfield than bring in a fresh Fraser.

However, people need to look at this with open eyes.  What TFC is doing right now is working and yes it sucks that its working without Fraser but the signs are also clear at this point that Fraser is not in the plans for Vanney (at least not a significant role).  Last year if Bradley was leaving and you asked me how I felt, I would have been excited for Fraser for the upcoming season.  If you ask me the same thing now, that Bradley was to leave at the end of the year, I would want Fraser to leave anyways because without or without Bradley, Vanney clearly doesn't rate him as a starter.

[narduch]

I'm here for the Vanney hate. He is so overrated. Basically has Pozuelo and Laryea saving his ass game after game.

TFC just cycle through youth and academy players. This is nothing new. When's the last time they actually developed a player from the academy into the first team? Akinola maybe?

I enjoy the irony though of two different 17 year olds scoring on TFC this year.

[El Hombre]

On 10/15/2020 at 9:51 AM, RS said:

TFC has been one of the league's biggest spenders since 2007, but success only came during the Vanney years.

Maybe they'd do even better under someone else, no one knows for sure. But they've absolutely shown that they can do much worse without Vanney at the helm.

Could the argument be made that Vanney has had the least amount of input with regards to who the money is spent on compared to the other coaches?  Genuine question.

Things really seemed to change when Bezbatchenko came on board.  Before that, the culture of the team would change with every coach: Preki would bring in European wanderers from Latvia/Russia, Winter had a distinct Dutch flavour in the players brought in during his tenure, Nelsen opted more for the English types with his players.  Once Bezbatchenko joined, that's when things seemed to stabilize with bringing in high-priced talent like Defoe, Bradley, Giovinco, Altidore etc.

Could be completely off-base but it seemed like the (major) personnel decisions were taken out of the coach's hands and dealt with more by the manager.  Perhaps at least part of the reason TFC has been more successful during the Vanney years could be due to raising the level of professionalism in the entire front office?

[Corazon]

The best team in MLS relying on only a RB & an AM is a bit harsh.  You don't have to give any credit to the coach but your taking away credit from a lot of great players on TFC.   I've never heard of a first place team relying solely on two players to bail them out every game.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Corazon

[Obinna]

17 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Could the argument be made that Vanney has had the least amount of input with regards to who the money is spent on compared to the other coaches?  Genuine question.

Things really seemed to change when Bezbatchenko came on board.  Before that, the culture of the team would change with every coach: Preki would bring in European wanderers from Latvia/Russia, Winter had a distinct Dutch flavour in the players brought in during his tenure, Nelsen opted more for the English types with his players.  Once Bezbatchenko joined, that's when things seemed to stabilize with bringing in high-priced talent like Defoe, Bradley, Giovinco, Altidore etc.

Could be completely off-base but it seemed like the (major) personnel decisions were taken out of the coach's hands and dealt with more by the manager.  Perhaps at least part of the reason TFC has been more successful during the Vanney years could be due to raising the level of professionalism in the entire front office?

From what I understand Toronto FC has a professional scout who identifies potential players and the decision on which to acquire is a joint effort by the GM and Vanney. The GM does the heavy lifting to bring him in and Vanney’s job is to focus on the team, so he is hands off.

I do not know if that makes him more or less involved than other MLS coaches. Peter Vermes and I think Bruce Arena take on both roles, so obviously they have the final say on play acquisition. 

[RS]

2 hours ago, narduch said:

TFC just cycle through youth and academy players. This is nothing new. When's the last time they actually developed a player from the academy into the first team? Akinola maybe?

What a strange string of sentences to put together. Akinola is literally the team's joint-leading goal scorer right now. 

So yes, Akinola. Maybe.

TFC absolutely should be criticized for not doing a better job transitioning more players to the first team, but your example has the exact opposite effect.

It's like saying "when's the last time TFC took a chance on a Canadian from outside the club? Laryea, maybe?"

46 minutes ago, Corazon said:

The best team in MLS relying on only a RB & an AM is a bit harsh.  You don't have to give any credit to the coach but your taking away credit from a lot of great players on TFC.   I've never heard of a first place team relying solely on two players to bail them out every game.

To go one step further, the RB in question only became a right back under Vanney. Laryea was taken off the scrap heap from Orlando as a central midfielder who had never played as a fullback prior to joining TFC.

This board has a super weird hate-on for Vanney. He's a flawed coach who plays it too conservative at times, but he's objectively by far the best TFC's ever had. The way he's spoken of here is like he's the second coming of Dale Mitchell.

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, RS said:

What a strange string of sentences to put together. Akinola is literally the team's joint-leading goal scorer right now. 

So yes, Akinola. Maybe.

TFC absolutely should be criticized for not doing a better job transitioning more players to the first team, but your example has the exact opposite effect.

It's like saying "when's the last time TFC took a chance on a Canadian from outside the club? Laryea, maybe?"

To go one step further, the RB in question only became a right back under Vanney. Laryea was taken off the scrap heap from Orlando as a central midfielder who had never played as a fullback prior to joining TFC.

This board has a super weird hate-on for Vanney. He's a flawed coach who plays it too conservative at times, but he's objectively by far the best TFC's ever had. The way he's spoken of here is like he's the second coming of Dale Mitchell.

This is a consequence of people wanting as many Canadians to be developed as possible. This is a Canadian soccer supporters website, not a Toronto FC one. Rightly or wrongly, Vanney is blamed for not developing enough Canadians. 

You are understandably going to find some less-than-accurate views around here when it comes to his coaching ability. My suggestion is to just filter them out. I very much doubt you are going to get anywhere with the hardened critics. 

My two cents: His record speaks for itself. He seems to be well-respected in Canadian soccer circles (amongst the professionals, I mean). He seems to be well-respected in MLS soccer circles.

For me, all things considered, he is arguably a top-5 coach, and a top-half coach at the MLS level without argument.

[El Hombre]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

I do not know if that makes him more or less involved than other MLS coaches. Peter Vermes and I think Bruce Arena take on both roles, so obviously they have the final say on play acquisition. 

I meant as compared to previous TFC coaches: Nelsen, Winter, Preki etc.

This would be in response to the idea that TFC has always been a big spender but has had the most success under Vanney.  My thought is that the only difference isn't just Vanney but also the way they approached recruitment which previous TFC coaches prior to Vanney had more input on (and may have made some bad choices).

[RS]

5 minutes ago, Obinna said:

This is a consequence of people wanting as many Canadians to be developed as possible. This is a Canadian soccer supporters website, not a Toronto FC one. Rightly or wrongly, Vanney is blamed for not developing enough Canadians. 

You are understandably going to find some less-than-accurate views around here when it comes to his coaching ability. My suggestion is to just filter them out. I very much doubt you are going to get anywhere with the hardened critics. 

My two cents: His record speaks for itself. He seems to be well-respected in Canadian soccer circles (amongst the professionals, I mean). He seems to be well-respected in MLS soccer circles.

For me, all things considered, he is arguably a top-5 coach, and a top-half coach at the MLS level without argument.

I get it. I want to see tons of Canadians in the lineup, too (that goes for all three MLS clubs).  I think Fraser probably should have seen time in the last half hour of TFC's last game given how clearly exhausted both Osorio and Delgado looked, but Vanney tends to be too conservative at times as I said.

But yeah, I honestly don't care if people here like him or not. I'm not his nephew.

I just find a lot of the criticism strange and, frankly, quite petty.

[RS]

10 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

I meant as compared to previous TFC coaches: Nelsen, Winter, Preki etc.

This would be in response to the idea that TFC has always been a big spender but has had the most success under Vanney.  My thought is that the only difference isn't just Vanney but also the way they approached recruitment which previous TFC coaches prior to Vanney had more input on (and may have made some bad choices).

You're right. After having given the likes of Mo Johnston and Aron Winter total control it's obvious that TFC has gone with a more team-based approach to managing the club from top to bottom. It ensures that there can be relative continuity if someone in a top position leaves (Bezbatchenko) or sucks (Johnston, Winter).

[Obinna]

20 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

I meant as compared to previous TFC coaches: Nelsen, Winter, Preki etc.

This would be in response to the idea that TFC has always been a big spender but has had the most success under Vanney.  My thought is that the only difference isn't just Vanney but also the way they approached recruitment which previous TFC coaches prior to Vanney had more input on (and may have made some bad choices).

Sure, I can get down with that if you are making a general statement.

But since it was made in the context of Vanney being a bad coach, it seems like you are taking some credit away from Vanney and putting it on the new recruitment process. Is that a misinterpretation on my part?

Obviously the recruitment process deserves credit, but that should not take away from what Vanney has achieved in my opinion, as you seem to suggest:

1 hour ago, El Hombre said:

Perhaps at least part of the reason TFC has been more successful during the Vanney years could be due to raising the level of professionalism in the entire front office?

The other part should be attributed to Vanney, no? He still needs to get the results with what he has been given. And he has done just that.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Obinna

[Corazon]

3 hours ago, RS said:

What a strange string of sentences to put together. Akinola is literally the team's joint-leading goal scorer right now. 

So yes, Akinola. Maybe.

TFC absolutely should be criticized for not doing a better job transitioning more players to the first team, but your example has the exact opposite effect.

It's like saying "when's the last time TFC took a chance on a Canadian from outside the club? Laryea, maybe?"

To go one step further, the RB in question only became a right back under Vanney. Laryea was taken off the scrap heap from Orlando as a central midfielder who had never played as a fullback prior to joining TFC.

This board has a super weird hate-on for Vanney. He's a flawed coach who plays it too conservative at times, but he's objectively by far the best TFC's ever had. The way he's spoken of here is like he's the second coming of Dale Mitchell.

Like I said, I'm not a Vanney fan but I don't understand how there is so much hate towards a coach that's been successful like him.  3 MLS cup finals in 4 years.  1 CCL final.  Currently sitting 1st place in all of MLS.

Akinola who came up through TFC is leading all Canadians in scoring by a long shot.

Osorio (who also came up through the youth system) is playing every minute of every game.  He is the current captain of the league leading best team in MLS.

Laryea has been a revelation in 12 months and become one of the best outside backs in the MLS.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Corazon

[El Hombre]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Sure, I can get down with that if you are making a general statement.

But since it was made in the context of Vanney being a bad coach, it seems like you are taking some credit away from Vanney and putting it on the new recruitment process. Is that a misinterpretation on my part?

Obviously the recruitment process deserves credit, but that should not take away from what Vanney has achieved in my opinion, as you seem to suggest:

The other part should be attributed to Vanney, no? He still needs to get the results with what he has been given. And he has done just that.

Yeah, he deserves some credit. 

Vanney is a good coach.  IMO he's not a great coach and definitely isn't coach of the year candidate, regardless of the team's performance.  But he isn't a bad coach.  My point is that he has it "easier" than other TFC coaches.

 

[Cheeta]

2 hours ago, RS said:

...

the way he's spoken of here is like he's the second coming of Dale Mitchell.

I am soooo going to use that one.  Just watch me.

As you were.

[El Diego]

If you want to discuss whether TFC is the right environment for a certain player to develop, that's fine. One can do that in a vacuum. What is odd to me is that many non-TFC fans have strong opinions about Vanney as a coach and it is hard not to think that these opinions are partially (or wholly) because of their belief that he doesn't play young Canadians enough. (full disclosure: I am a TFC fan and I think Vanney is a good coach, though certainly not perfect)

If you really want to take this exercise of is TFC developing Canadian talent well, why not literally do a case by case basis? The most interesting case is, in fact, Liam Fraser. I love watching him play and I think he is capable of a bigger role. I don't think TFC are necessarily wrong in not playing him more, but I see the argument. It may be in his best interest to leave TFC to get high level first team minutes on a weekly basis, but he may also be a regular starter as soon as next season. Staying and going both have risks and he should have a frank discussion with TFC. I think TFC has been overall positive to his development. These things can all be true at the same time.

 

[Free kick]

3 hours ago, RS said:

You're right. After having given the likes of Mo Johnston and Aron Winter total control it's obvious that TFC has gone with a more team-based approach to managing the club from top to bottom. It ensures that there can be relative continuity if someone in a top position leaves (Bezbatchenko) or sucks (Johnston, Winter).

this has indeed worked well.   And it has always been one of the flaws IMHO in the way the clubs are managed overseas.   Overseas, the manager/coach has total control and say in player personel decsions and the people in managment are nothing more than paper pushers.  Problem with that is that the shelf life of the manager/coach is very short.  So that leads to a lot short term decsions that lead to short term fixes and massive overall of teams when a coach leaves.  So a lot clubs end up spinning their wheels year after year because no one has the longer term picture in mind like a general manager would in North America.  
 

this is what TFC was from 2007-14.  A team that spinned its wheels yaer after year. Firing managers which resulted in changing players which resulted in lack of continuity, which resulted in poor results, which resulted in coach getting fired.  And the cycle would repeat itself. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Free kick

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, El Diego said:

If you want to discuss whether TFC is the right environment for a certain player to develop, that's fine. One can do that in a vacuum. What is odd to me is that many non-TFC fans have strong opinions about Vanney as a coach and it is hard not to think that these opinions are partially (or wholly) because of their belief that he doesn't play young Canadians enough. (full disclosure: I am a TFC fan and I think Vanney is a good coach, though certainly not perfect)

If you really want to take this exercise of is TFC developing Canadian talent well, why not literally do a case by case basis? The most interesting case is, in fact, Liam Fraser. I love watching him play and I think he is capable of a bigger role. I don't think TFC are necessarily wrong in not playing him more, but I see the argument. It may be in his best interest to leave TFC to get high level first team minutes on a weekly basis, but he may also be a regular starter as soon as next season. Staying and going both have risks and he should have a frank discussion with TFC. I think TFC has been overall positive to his development. These things can all be true at the same time.

 

I’m completely on the same page.  Vanney has an incredibly impressive record since 2015 and an impressive collection of hardware.  If thats not what counts then what is it that should count?  

Worth repeating what someone mentioned earlier,  TFC have always been big spenders .  Even before Vanney arrived.  But nobody got anywhere near the same results.  Its been said before in Pro sports but:  meeting the expectations of when you have all resources behind you to acquire talent is harder than it is to appear like an overachiever when you have limited resources behind you. 

i want to see canadians play as much as anybody but those spots have to be earned beacuse at the end of the day, the results is what count.  And it is what has to count.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Free kick

[Free kick]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

This is a consequence of people wanting as many Canadians to be developed as possible. This is a Canadian soccer supporters website, not a Toronto FC one. Rightly or wrongly, Vanney is blamed for not developing enough Canadians. 

You are understandably going to find some less-than-accurate views around here when it comes to his coaching ability. My suggestion is to just filter them out. I very much doubt you are going to get anywhere with the hardened critics. 

My two cents: His record speaks for itself. He seems to be well-respected in Canadian soccer circles (amongst the professionals, I mean). He seems to be well-respected in MLS soccer circles.

For me, all things considered, he is arguably a top-5 coach, and a top-half coach at the MLS level without argument.

I have mixed views on this. Yes, we want to as many canadians developed as possible.  But the way the process works is that there will be many more who dont develop into the kind of player that we want them to be than those that will be in Herdman’s lineup one day.  Thats just the way it is.  Part of it is the system but most of it is up to the player himself.  What if the player doesnt have what it takes to play regularly at this level. Why is that hard for some to understand.

i am happy as long as the developing canadians are getting a fair chance.   And in my view, from what i can tell, they mostly have.  I have had my share of back and forths with people here (to put it mildly) over the fact that some thought that a certain canadians (in the past) werent being given fair chance.  I called out that i didnt see, why based on their past contributions,  they deserved more playing time.  So i see both sides.   But with current crop, i think we need to see more in order pass judgement.  I like so far what i saw from Fraser and we need to see what the others can do.
 

We need to trust the process rather than just blame Vanney because the process will be exactly the same whether its Vanney who is the coach or somebody else.  And its the same whether its TFC or any other team in the world.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Free kick

[LeoH037]

15 hours ago, Bison44 said:

You are complaining about Red going to bat for Fraser, like he is related, yet you jumped into a thread just to defend Vanney when you inferred/deduced/read between the lines he was not geting his due.  Now which train of thought probably is more apt to be in the Fraser thread?  Go start a "Vanney is great thread" if you really want to show support for him.  

Red is not interested in batting for Fraser though, which is fine, the kid is more interested in batting at me 😂

[LeoH037]

6 hours ago, narduch said:

I'm here for the Vanney hate. He is so overrated. Basically has Pozuelo and Laryea saving his ass game after game.

TFC just cycle through youth and academy players. This is nothing new. When's the last time they actually developed a player from the academy into the first team? Akinola maybe?

I enjoy the irony though of two different 17 year olds scoring on TFC this year.

Yes... Vanney had no impact on Laryea's current career transformation and trajectory(the guy was on his way out of MLS). But at least you make your opinions of being here to hate on Vanney clear, so fair enough.