Atiba Hutchinson

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, canta15 said:

You can definetely compare Bradley and Hutch but not Vasquez. He plays in a more attacking role, while Hutch almost always stays back while attacking

Wasn't comparing them in terms of style of play. Vazquez is obviously an attacking central midfielder, but a central midfielder nonetheless.

I think drawing a distinction between central and flank midfielders is approprate. I would never compare Hutchinson with Davies, for example. Those wingers often play as forwards in 4-3-3 and similar variants. Can't really compare midfielders with forwards, can we?

Defensive midfielders versus attacking midfielders on the other hand? Meh, they are all central midfielders at the end of the day.

If we get too picky, we just end up turning "would atiba be the best midfielder at a canadian team"? into "is atiba better than bradley"?

[Obinna]

I have a slight worry that Atiba would have a similar impact in MLS as de Guzman - in other words, not as much of an impact as we'd like or expect.

Does anyone else share that concern?

[Ruffian]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I have a slight worry that Atiba would have a similar impact in MLS as de Guzman - in other words, not as much of an impact as we'd like or expect.

Does anyone else share that concern?

Especially if people are hyping him as the best midfielder in MLS. He is a good player. If he comes, let him play and find his spot in MLS.

[Grizzly]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

I have a slight worry that Atiba would have a similar impact in MLS as de Guzman - in other words, not as much of an impact as we'd like or expect.

Does anyone else share that concern?

Absolutely not. Atiba is far more skilled and far less of a role player than JDG. JDG was a cog in the wheel at Deportivo, Atiba is one of Besiktas most dominant players. High level role players have trouble in MLS. Atiba is far from a role player.

[Obinna]

52 minutes ago, Grizzly said:

Absolutely not. Atiba is far more skilled and far less of a role player than JDG. JDG was a cog in the wheel at Deportivo, Atiba is one of Besiktas most dominant players. High level role players have trouble in MLS. Atiba is far from a role player.

Interesting take. I am going to watch Atiba more closely and consider this.

Also, to play devil's advocate, is he not both? "High level role player" and "one of besiktas most dominant players" are not mutually exclusive, right?

[harrycoyster]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

I have a slight worry that Atiba would have a similar impact in MLS as de Guzman - in other words, not as much of an impact as we'd like or expect.

Does anyone else share that concern?

When's the last time a 30+ year old central midfielder came into MLS that was great and stayed healthy for a whole season? 2014 Jermaine Jones?....and he looked like he ages 5 years in the 2015 season. The worry about Atiba in MLS for me is that this league breaks older players. DP expectations, turf games, hyper physical play and MLS travel shortens careers. 

[Bison44]

Vazquez??  Oops he was only 30.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Grizzly said:

Absolutely not. Atiba is far more skilled and far less of a role player than JDG. JDG was a cog in the wheel at Deportivo, Atiba is one of Besiktas most dominant players. High level role players have trouble in MLS. Atiba is far from a role player.

I beg to differ. One season, when they were top half of the table in La Liga, Julian was voted MVP, not sure if it was fans, press, but regardless: much harder league, harder competition, and no less important player by any means. Very similar in fact. Depor was in transition when he was there, they played Intertoto, sure, and UEFA one year. But where Besiktas gets a real challenge by playing outside of Turkey, apart from two other teams, Depor had it in the domestic league.

Even saying my point is arguable, you are overstating the Atiba case, Grizzly. If you read Besiktas press, he is one of many players touted and lauded for his importance, true. But you don't honestly think that a defensive mid who rarely scores is considered one of the team's dominant players? I mean, in what sense, like Sergio Busquets here at Barça? A very important player, but still, if fans or press made a list of most important pieces, he'd come in 5th or 6th. Not bad, sure, but fact is fact: the same or even less than Julian at Deportivo.

All this to agree with the suggestion made by Obinna. He could very well end up looking and feeling like Julian did at TFC, overpaid and not worth it. Because he is 100% a role player and cannot carry a team on his back, as Julian could not either. His only advantage compared to Julian, as I see it, is that he plays in a way that does not rely on such high intensity, so he need not rely on explosive physicality. 

[Obinna]

36 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I beg to differ. One season, when they were top half of the table in La Liga, Julian was voted MVP, not sure if it was fans, press, but regardless: much harder league, harder competition, and no less important player by any means. Very similar in fact. Depor was in transition when he was there, they played Intertoto, sure, and UEFA one year. But where Besiktas gets a real challenge by playing outside of Turkey, apart from two other teams, Depor had it in the domestic league.

Even saying my point is arguable, you are overstating the Atiba case, Grizzly. If you read Besiktas press, he is one of many players touted and lauded for his importance, true. But you don't honestly think that a defensive mid who rarely scores is considered one of the team's dominant players? I mean, in what sense, like Sergio Busquets here at Barça? A very important player, but still, if fans or press made a list of most important pieces, he'd come in 5th or 6th. Not bad, sure, but fact is fact: the same or even less than Julian at Deportivo.

All this to agree with the suggestion made by Obinna. He could very well end up looking and feeling like Julian did at TFC, overpaid and not worth it. Because he is 100% a role player and cannot carry a team on his back, as Julian could not either. His only advantage compared to Julian, as I see it, is that he plays in a way that does not rely on such high intensity, so he need not rely on explosive physicality. 

Pretty much sums up my thoughts.

[BearcatSA]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

I have a slight worry that Atiba would have a similar impact in MLS as de Guzman - in other words, not as much of an impact as we'd like or expect.

Does anyone else share that concern?

It all will revolve around expectations.  He'd be a really good signing for a team that continues to work for the counter punch.  I think he might fit in quite well if the club continues to play this way.   The problem with JDG in TFC was that he was expected to be "all this and a bag of chips" and couldn't live up to the expectations of the fans and media observers.

 

[Big_M]

''far more skilled than de Guzman''..how quick to forget his technical quality..easily above Hutchinson..6 years as a starter in a top 5 league including 4 in la liga as an important player for deportivo..Hutchinson never played in a league of that level

[Unnamed Trialist]

Julian went to TFC when he was in clear decadence, and had no decent offers in Europe. He said (it was said) he did, but he didn't. TFC foolishly paid him twice the salary he could have gotten in Europe, or more, I decried this when it happened as it was v poor work on the part of their FO.

Atiba is at the peak of his career or close to it, in any case he is not in any sort of slide. 

BTW, looking at Besiktas news. Rumour here is that Arda Turan will go on loan there, they'll pay his huge salary or a part. And that Quaresma is leaving, he did an enigmatic tweet saying goodbye and folks are thinking he is on his way out. So Arda for Quaresma, attacking mid up a side. And no effect at all on either Atiba or a possible Larin move. 

[Macksam]

On ‎2017‎-‎12‎-‎26 at 5:12 PM, Unnamed Trialist said:

In normal circumstances they would have to be happy. They just gave up a dumb league draw but are still in range of the league lead, in a tight race this year with about 6 teams close to the top; and are into the knockout round of Champions. But vs. Bayern, so it's a raw deal, what more can they reasonably ask?

A team like that cannot imagine to win Champions, they are not in the Man City or PSG mode right now, far from it. At Madrid could reasonably think they could win it some year, after two finals. Shaktar has been better and more into the mix over recent years than Besiktas. Surely they cannot expect more than deep runs in Champions, maybe a luckier draw some year and a quarter final, and consistent leagues in Turkey?

I mean, just a few years ago Málaga played a Champions League quarter that they almost got through. 

Meaning: would they get rid of him to upgrade as they build an even stronger team? Only to really create a CL contender, like the ones mentioned. Or do they realize it can't realistically get much better?

Everything would definitely need to go right for them to make a deep run in the Champion's League....from playing near perfect games to getting lucky bounces.

It's getting harder for the "smaller" clubs to compete with the big boys with the latter group's revenue on a constant upward trajectory. Even recent years like 2010 had clubs like Bordeaux and Lyon playing for a spot in the semis but that's a distant memory now. I think we're going to see the same 7 or 8 clubs dominate for the next little while.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Macksam

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Julian went to TFC when he was in clear decadence, and had no decent offers in Europe. He said (it was said) he did, but he didn't. TFC foolishly paid him twice the salary he could have gotten in Europe, or more, I decried this when it happened as it was v poor work on the part of their FO.

Atiba is at the peak of his career or close to it, in any case he is not in any sort of slide. 

BTW, looking at Besiktas news. Rumour here is that Arda Turan will go on loan there, they'll pay his huge salary or a part. And that Quaresma is leaving, he did an enigmatic tweet saying goodbye and folks are thinking he is on his way out. So Arda for Quaresma, attacking mid up a side. And no effect at all on either Atiba or a possible Larin move. 

Barcelona want Quaresma in exchange? lol

I think Barca should swoop in and get Alexis Sanchez considering there's room for him again at the club. It also solves Arsenal problem of not selling him to a rival premier club and  they'll get some decent coinage to boot. 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Macksam

[Unnamed Trialist]

22 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Barcelona want Quaresma in exchange? lol

I think Barca should swoop in and get Alexis Sanchez considering there's room for him again at the club. It also solves Arsenal problem of not selling him to a rival premier club and  they'll get some decent coinage to boot. 

I watched Quaresma play for Barça when he was still a teen. Simply promising. Amazing how some guys can have great careers without ever being even close to great.

Barça doesn't need any more strikers. We now play 4-4-2, Cruyff and Guardiola are dead. Pep doesn't even realize it, he is trying to win a Champions by copying himself. "I can only play my way, the way I want". Garbage. The guy is lost. At PSG the same. When you copy, even copying yourself, that is what happens: you get where you want to get late, and by the time to do, everyone has already moved on.

The way I see it is is this: let Besiktas or Basel or Shaktar win the Champions, showing the rest of us how it is done. I'd greatly admire them. It is just 7 games left, and you don't even have to win them all. 

 

[Club Linesman]

On 2017-12-26 at 6:26 PM, Prune_55 said:

He wouldn't even be the best midfielder playing on a Cdn MLS club.

Atiba would easily be in the mix as one of the best midfielders in MLS. His game is breaking up opposition rushes and then controlling the ball with exceptional accuracy as demonstrated by the stats in Champions League.  His skill set isn’t one that depends on having other highly skilled players around you. De Guzman came on to a horrible team and I imagine his game was hurt by the lack of talent around him.  Love to watch Besiktas but would be absolutely amazing to see more CMNT players inMLS and CPL.

[Keegan]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I watched Quaresma play for Barça when he was still a teen. Simply promising. Amazing how some guys can have great careers without ever being even close to great.

Barça doesn't need any more strikers. We now play 4-4-2, Cruyff and Guardiola are dead. Pep doesn't even realize it, he is trying to win a Champions by copying himself. "I can only play my way, the way I want". Garbage. The guy is lost. At PSG the same. When you copy, even copying yourself, that is what happens: you get where you want to get late, and by the time to do, everyone has already moved on.

The way I see it is is this: let Besiktas or Basel or Shaktar win the Champions, showing the rest of us how it is done. I'd greatly admire them. It is just 7 games left, and you don't even have to win them all. 

 

Do you hate English football so much that you don't even pay attention?  How can you knock an undefeated team that is 15 points clear after 20 games.. they absolutely tore apart my poor Newcastle today.  When all is said and done Pep is going to be considered the greatest manager of all time so I doubt he's too bothered about sticking to his "dead tactics".  

[Macksam]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I watched Quaresma play for Barça when he was still a teen. Simply promising. Amazing how some guys can have great careers without ever being even close to great.

Barça doesn't need any more strikers. We now play 4-4-2, Cruyff and Guardiola are dead. Pep doesn't even realize it, he is trying to win a Champions by copying himself. "I can only play my way, the way I want". Garbage. The guy is lost. At PSG the same. When you copy, even copying yourself, that is what happens: you get where you want to get late, and by the time to do, everyone has already moved on.

The way I see it is is this: let Besiktas or Basel or Shaktar win the Champions, showing the rest of us how it is done. I'd greatly admire them. It is just 7 games left, and you don't even have to win them all. 

 

I agree that Pep’s brand of soccer that dominated late 2008-2011 has been effectively figured out and countered by the other top clubs. Unlike other team contact sports or team sports in general, soccer evolves quite frequently and styles change every 4 or 5 years. I remember thinking way back then that even though the club was impressive no doubt dominating Man U in both finals, Barca’s “tiki taka” style was going meet its match....which it eventually did during the domination at the hands of Bayern Munich in 2013. It was surprising how Bayern then elected to go with Pep’s style the following season and have Real Madrid do to them what they did to Barca the year prior.

23 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Do you hate English football so much that you don't even pay attention?  How can you knock an undefeated team that is 15 points clear after 20 games.. they absolutely tore apart my poor Newcastle today.  When all is said and done Pep is going to be considered the greatest manager of all time so I doubt he's too bothered about sticking to his "dead tactics".  

IMO it’s the same effect he had on Bayern Munich, which overwhelmed the vast majority of clubs in the domestic league but the same glaring holes eventually arised when it came to Europe.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Macksam

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, Macksam said:

I agree that Pep’s brand of soccer that dominated late 2008-2011 has been effectively figured out and countered by the other top clubs. Unlike other team contact sports or team sports in general, soccer evolves quite frequently and styles change every 4 or 5 years. I remember thinking way back then that even though the club was impressive no doubt dominating Man U in both finals, Barca’s “tiki taka” style was going meet its match....which it eventually did during the domination at the hands of Bayern Munich in 2013. It was surprising how Bayern then elected to go with Pep’s style the following season and have Real Madrid do to them what they did to Barca the year prior.

IMO it’s the same effect he had on Bayern Munich, which overwhelmed the vast majority of clubs in the domestic league but the same glaring holes eventually arised when it came to Europe.

I cant wait for the wheels to turn and soon enough Barca will be playing old english Route one hoofball.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

22 hours ago, Keegan said:

Do you hate English football so much that you don't even pay attention?  How can you knock an undefeated team that is 15 points clear after 20 games.. they absolutely tore apart my poor Newcastle today.  When all is said and done Pep is going to be considered the greatest manager of all time so I doubt he's too bothered about sticking to his "dead tactics".  

They are not undefeated. Just another detail you have not paid attention to, they lost in Champions. One thing to be a EPL fanboy, another thing to not even know the facts. BTW, tear apart is 0-3 in the Bernabeu, not 0-1 in Tyneside. And Barça did it playing 4-4-2, and Messi spent the game walking with his back turned to the play. That is something new, not this City.

Look, I have been watching Pep since he was at Barça B, I know him inside out, he was not the greatest mid but a successful one, and we liked him; not as good as Xavi, but good. And as a manager: Pep is not even the best manager in the history of Barça, the only place he won anything of importance, I say that as a card carrying club member.  He did exactly the same as Rijkaard before him, adding a European SuperCup, and maybe even less difficult since Rijkaard had to break with years of bad results, Pep rode on them. Did the same at Bayern, rode on Heynckes results, a manager who was not too well treated by them and now they have redressed that, only there Pep underacheived in Champions. So far, same at City, where he has not even won yet.

And he is flogging his style, very arrogantly, borrowed from Cruyff from 25 years ago, which Cruyff borrowed from Rinus Michels who is the real founder of what Pep flouts, while the rest of the soccer world is already there too. You cannot play legendary football that way any more. Apart from the fact he does not have major players, not one is really world class, except maybe Silva. He does nothing tactically at City at all innovative or new, he is no longer making a contribution to world football.

Guardiola did one of the most amazing things I have seen as a manager, in the World Club Cup vs. Santos in 2011. Play with no striker, it was like a 4-6, seriously. I recommend anyone interested in tactics to watch that match, it is fascinating. But it was done as an experiment, vs. an inferior team, and it worked. What has he done of any merit as a coach since then? Except suck the fanboys with no football context into thinking he is a genious. Which is why, if Barça can't win this year, it'd be great to know City does not either. And if they don't ever, better.

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Unnamed Trialist

[Macksam]

9 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Apart from the fact he does not have major players, not one is really world class, except maybe Silva. He does nothing tactically at City at all innovative or new, he is no longer making a contribution to world football.

Unless you have an extremely high threshold for what you consider world class, you surely must consider Kevin De Bruyne in that category as well. I also think Bernardo Silva will one day be the best player in the world but City was the wrong place for him with regards to his career trajectory. Here’s a guy that killed City last year in the Champion’s league quarter finals and he’s relegated to miniscule playing time now at the very club he played a huge part in knocking out.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Macksam

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Unless you have an extremely high threshold for what you consider world class, you should consider Kevin De Bruyne world class as well. Bernardo Silva will one day be the best player in the world to but I think City was the wrong place for him for his development.

De Bruyne is on his way, perhaps, but for me is not the player Silva is. Nor Aguero has been. I mean, just last year people were saying De Bruyne was disappointing, pointing to his gaps, his inexperience or weak mentality in key games. So what's it been, 4 months of good results? It's like Hazard, an amazing player who refuses to be more than what he is, who has never made the step any higher. Frigging Belgians, if they could just put it all together, they'd blow us away. 

I happen to be someone who is so glad I don't have to watch Neymar anymore, a wasteful player with no team sense, and a horrible ego to deal with in a locker room. So what do I know about footballers?

Just to not overly get OT, would love to see one of the modest sides win Champions, even Besiktas. Just to prove everyone wrong with all this a priori hype. But please: no City or PSG, ever. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Unnamed Trialist

[Keegan]

On 12/28/2017 at 8:40 PM, Unnamed Trialist said:

They are not undefeated. Just another detail you have not paid attention to, they lost in Champions. One thing to be a EPL fanboy, another thing to not even know the facts. BTW, tear apart is 0-3 in the Bernabeu, not 0-1 in Tyneside. And Barça did it playing 4-4-2, and Messi spent the game walking with his back turned to the play. That is something new, not this City.

Look, I have been watching Pep since he was at Barça B, I know him inside out, he was not the greatest mid but a successful one, and we liked him; not as good as Xavi, but good. And as a manager: Pep is not even the best manager in the history of Barça, the only place he won anything of importance, I say that as a card carrying club member.  He did exactly the same as Rijkaard before him, adding a European SuperCup, and maybe even less difficult since Rijkaard had to break with years of bad results, Pep rode on them. Did the same at Bayern, rode on Heynckes results, a manager who was not too well treated by them and now they have redressed that, only there Pep underacheived in Champions. So far, same at City, where he has not even won yet.

And he is flogging his style, very arrogantly, borrowed from Cruyff from 25 years ago, which Cruyff borrowed from Rinus Michels who is the real founder of what Pep flouts, while the rest of the soccer world is already there too. You cannot play legendary football that way any more. Apart from the fact he does not have major players, not one is really world class, except maybe Silva. He does nothing tactically at City at all innovative or new, he is no longer making a contribution to world football.

Guardiola did one of the most amazing things I have seen as a manager, in the World Club Cup vs. Santos in 2011. Play with no striker, it was like a 4-6, seriously. I recommend anyone interested in tactics to watch that match, it is fascinating. But it was done as an experiment, vs. an inferior team, and it worked. What has he done of any merit as a coach since then? Except suck the fanboys with no football context into thinking he is a genious. Which is why, if Barça can't win this year, it'd be great to know City does not either. And if they don't ever, better.

 

 

You'll notice I said they are "15 points clear" which should have made it clear I was speaking about the league.  I'm definitely not an EPL fan boy, I lived in England and watched more Bundesliga and La Liga matches and my local team was League Two.  

I think this Manchester City squad is special and I'm interested to see how they fare in the CL.  You may be right in that they'll be exposed as they were last season but I think they've done a great job at bringing in players and they might make a run.  We play the games for a reason after all.  I don't think you can fault Pep for sticking with a style that he has built a career on at the end of the day.

[Unnamed Trialist]

33 minutes ago, Keegan said:

 

You'll notice I said they are "15 points clear" which should have made it clear I was speaking about the league.  I'm definitely not an EPL fan boy, I lived in England and watched more Bundesliga and La Liga matches and my local team was League Two.  

I think this Manchester City squad is special and I'm interested to see how they fare in the CL.  You may be right in that they'll be exposed as they were last season but I think they've done a great job at bringing in players and they might make a run.  We play the games for a reason after all.  I don't think you can fault Pep for sticking with a style that he has built a career on at the end of the day.

Okay, sorry about the fan boy, dirty dig on my part.

If you are only talking about the league, then Barça is also undefeated. Playing a 4-4-2. And no, there is nothing special about this team either. BTW, in all his seasons coaching, in all competitions before Xmas, Pep has been defeated only once, like this year, 3 other times. So it is not even special what he is doing. At Bayern he had two losses before Xmas all three seasons. His worst season was last year's.

I fault Pep for abandonning projects early, for basically running onto the next. No loyalty.

For talking a lot but having a reputation for being a bad communicator, loving the sound of your own voice is not communication. As demostrated by a lot of great players who criticize him openly.

For being a poor friend to his friends, what the family of the guy who replaced him at Barça, his pal Tito Villanova, who died of cancer, had to say about him was not too nice. 

For always choosing a place where they have already had success, in a big way, and recently. Barça, Bayern, City. So basically going to places where he does not really have to build anything long term, in spite of what he falsely says about being a guy dedicated to building from the academy.

For being the coach of a team that is part of an empire of like 5 clubs, a conglomerate, and I think this biggest spending in the world this year, with PSG. Cheating on financial fair play as they falsify income from the conglomerate to justify spending so much on one team. They are not even top 10 in the world in shirt sales, and have way less following than Man Utd worldwide. Where do they get the money Pep is building his special team with?

And for playing his insistent long possession 4-3-3 when it is just dogma, there is no reason for it. Sure, play a style, something fans might like. But don't be a prick about it, there are dozens of ways to success in football, and one way is no better than another.

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Okay, sorry about the fan boy, dirty dig on my part.

If you are only talking about the league, then Barça is also undefeated. Playing a 4-4-2. And no, there is nothing special about this team either. BTW, in all his seasons coaching, in all competitions before Xmas, Pep has been defeated only once, like this year, 3 other times. So it is not even special what he is doing. At Bayern he had two losses before Xmas all three seasons. His worst season was last year's.

I fault Pep for abandonning projects early, for basically running onto the next. No loyalty.

For talking a lot but having a reputation for being a bad communicator, loving the sound of your own voice is not communication. As demostrated by a lot of great players who criticize him openly.

For being a poor friend to his friends, what the family of the guy who replaced him at Barça, his pal Tito Villanova, who died of cancer, had to say about him was not too nice. 

For always choosing a place where they have already had success, in a big way, and recently. Barça, Bayern, City. So basically going to places where he does not really have to build anything long term, in spite of what he falsely says about being a guy dedicated to building from the academy.

For being the coach of a team that is part of an empire of like 5 clubs, a conglomerate, and I think this biggest spending in the world this year, with PSG. Cheating on financial fair play as they falsify income from the conglomerate to justify spending so much on one team. They are not even top 10 in the world in shirt sales, and have way less following than Man Utd worldwide. Where do they get the money Pep is building his special team with?

And for playing his insistent long possession 4-3-3 when it is just dogma, there is no reason for it. Sure, play a style, something fans might like. But don't be a prick about it, there are dozens of ways to success in football, and one way is no better than another.

Why I do not like Manchester City.