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12 hours ago, LeoH037 said:

err... the only players better are David, Larin, and Cavalini.. I'm sorry, but guys like AKindele, RIcketts, and AJH are left in the dust. Ayo is clearly a step up in quality from them.

Ayo has had one good game in a mickey mouse tournament. Let's hit the brakes.

It's hard to take anything that happens in this tournament seriously tbh - it has a pre-season feel to it.

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Who's on their high horse??  If you choose to help anther nation, bring glory to their program, win trophies for them etc I think that does say something about how much or what kind of CDN you are.  I

Not to pile on, but I am defending the maple leaf on this one.  Larin played at Sigma until he was 18 (and played in Canada up until that time).  Playing 39 games in NCAA doesn’t diminish that. 

He probably also get nailed to the bench once Altidore returns too. I can't wait until TFC loses its American influence. I've had season tickets since season 1 and I'm tired of being Team America

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The post about if Akinola gets 10-12 goals he'll be close to cavallini....Akendele got 10 last year and he can barely get a call up......I'm just saying.  

And the bit about Hamilton or Akinola or anyone showing consistency....thats crazy.  How can you show that when you only get a game every 2 weeks??  700min a year and be yo yoing up and down from TFC2??   Hard enough for a guy like Lareya who is getting regular super sub minutes or a platoon player.  

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I'm a TFC fan, and when Akinola scores for me it is somewhere between bitter sweet and annoyance. If he was committed to Canada, great, a young prospect scoring goals for TFC. Fantastic! But he's an American and not Canadian, for international purposes, at least for the time being. So when he scores that makes me think that's potentially going to be fewer minutes for guys like Nelson or other young Canadian prospects (if Vanney wasn't already planning/hoping to give the Canadian prospects 0 minutes).

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7 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Ayo has had one good game in a mickey mouse tournament. Let's hit the brakes.

It's hard to take anything that happens in this tournament seriously tbh - it has a pre-season feel to it.

no, its the fact that Ayo is clearly a step up in quality, and has a much higher ceiling. His ball control, movement with and without the ball, technique, touch, all clearly better than any of the aforementioned. Grudging him because he is non committed to Canada does not negate his quality.

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7 hours ago, Bison44 said:

The post about if Akinola gets 10-12 goals he'll be close to cavallini....Akendele got 10 last year and he can barely get a call up......I'm just saying.  

And the bit about Hamilton or Akinola or anyone showing consistency....thats crazy.  How can you show that when you only get a game every 2 weeks??  700min a year and be yo yoing up and down from TFC2??   Hard enough for a guy like Lareya who is getting regular super sub minutes or a platoon player.  

Big difference is that Akinola is 20 years old, Akindele is 28. 10-12 goals for a 20 year old does not happen by fluke. Its damn impressive.

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5 hours ago, Kadenge said:

You would think with 5 subs, 1 would be reserved for a prospect  or a younger player... a few minutes of game time. Really pathetic.

It is not TFC's job to develop players. If a young Canadian prospect earns the minutes, the great. Otherwise, if they aren't on the field, then they aren't ready.

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51 minutes ago, LeoH037 said:

It is not TFC's job to develop players. 

What?  It most certainly is!   Not for any specific national teams purpose, but for their own.

No owner or GM would ever tell their coaches that part of their job didn't include nurturing and developing the young talent that you already have in the club.  Not that they shouldn't prioritize winning games and getting results on the field in any way, but it's still an important job for all managers!

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Last year Ayo's touch was noticeably worst than Hamilton, which is really impressive, and he did not do a single positive thing other than his goal. Him being 20 means it doesn't matter too much and he will get better but put any striker in his position with MLS class players like Pozuelo and Piatti setting him up and they'll bag a few as well. Granted his first goal was taken very well.

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When Tesho joined our program it was a watershed moment for the program.  A player who was the MLS rookie of the year choosing Canada.  At a time when we had almost no attacking depth it was a big deal.

Our program has come so far in 7 years that now a guy scoring double digits in MLS gets called up but isn’t starting.  That’s a huge deal too.

Not too long ago any player who made an MLS roster was an automatic invite to a window and we were rolling with multiple players with no clubs or clubs in very low levels of foreign leagues.  That’s simply not going to happen anymore.

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4 hours ago, Acid-Tone said:

What?  It most certainly is!   Not for any specific national teams purpose, but for their own.

No owner or GM would ever tell their coaches that part of their job didn't include nurturing and developing the young talent that you already have in the club.  Not that they shouldn't prioritize winning games and getting results on the field in any way, but it's still an important job for all managers!

other than "for the CMNT" being implied, point taken.

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3 hours ago, costarg said:

Indeed, but you're still missing the point.  Tesho had 9 goals his rookie year at 21-22. 

MLS 6 years ago is not the same as MLS today, the jump in quality has been quite noticeable. An Ayo is arguably a more dynamic player than Tesho.

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3 hours ago, sebdeserio said:

Last year Ayo's touch was noticeably worst than Hamilton, which is really impressive, and he did not do a single positive thing other than his goal. Him being 20 means it doesn't matter too much and he will get better but put any striker in his position with MLS class players like Pozuelo and Piatti setting him up and they'll bag a few as well. Granted his first goal was taken very well.

Hamilton, for all his quality in front of net, is unfortunately far too linear. Your typical vanilla #9 who can't seem to create much on his own, and he isn't the most mobile/dynamic of players to at least use his movement to pop up in the right place consistently (Chicharito comes to mind as someone who was exceptional at this in his prime). Its ultimately why he was never truly able to push Jozy for minutes. Staying in Toronto for too long ultimately sabotaged his growth as a player, which had been progressing exceptionally during his youth years.

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15 hours ago, LeoH037 said:

no, its the fact that Ayo is clearly a step up in quality, and has a much higher ceiling. His ball control, movement with and without the ball, technique, touch, all clearly better than any of the aforementioned. Grudging him because he is non committed to Canada does not negate his quality.

If he commits to Canada...he is just another piece to build around when it comes to the golden generation of Canadian soccer...can't help but want him on your national team 

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16 hours ago, LeoH037 said:

It is not TFC's job to develop players. If a young Canadian prospect earns the minutes, the great. Otherwise, if they aren't on the field, then they aren't ready.

Dont want this to become an MLS thread, but at some point their "elite" academy players are going to think twice about signing a first team contract and rotting away while being tied down with club options etc. Case in point : Okello.  Would he have been further along at Wolfsburg?.. he certainly is not progressing at TFC. Then there's the Fraser saga. Next up Jayden Nelsen and Jahkeele Marshall Rutty.....not saying they are the next David, but maybe they are seeing his success and thinking perhaps there is another way to the top? I realize TFC is one of the top MLS teams and  competition is higher than Vancouver and Montreal,  but with 5 subs  10 mins playing time  is not unreasonable. if not now then when?  Yes there were injuries to 3 defenders last game, so I will defer judgement until the Montreal game  

 

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10 hours ago, LeoH037 said:

Hamilton, for all his quality in front of net, is unfortunately far too linear. Your typical vanilla #9 who can't seem to create much on his own, and he isn't the most mobile/dynamic of players to at least use his movement to pop up in the right place consistently (Chicharito comes to mind as someone who was exceptional at this in his prime). Its ultimately why he was never truly able to push Jozy for minutes. Staying in Toronto for too long ultimately sabotaged his growth as a player, which had been progressing exceptionally during his youth years.

I know your main point is not to write off Hamilton, but I still feel compelled to point out that Hamilton can absolutely play his way back into the pool. It is definitely not too late for him. He is still only 24 years old and he's not even in his prime yet. He is the same age group as Kianz Froese and Caniggia Elva.

At this point I don't foresee him going to Europe like Cyle Larin, but I can definitely see him becoming a consistently productive MLS striker like Tesho Akindele has been for most of his career. To be honest we can use a few more Tesho-level forwards to pad our depth.

A lot can change for players in a short time. Look where Richie Laryea was just a year ago. 

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In all fairness to MLS, where was Wolfsburg when Okello was 12??  Its the MLS clubs that have put in the time and energy to help these kids along to the point they are ready for pro contracts.  The bottle neck for prospects in late teens is more problematic, history tells us TFC arent going to give young players much of a chance.  They make big signings and tend to plug roster spots with MLS retreads and more mature college draft picks.  Someone at TFC should acknowledge that and sell a Okello type player to Wolfsburg if there is little to no chance of him progressing within TFC.  TFc gets a transfer fee and everyone in the academy is pumped because they moved a player onto a big club in europe, win win.  Hoarding these kids and then not playing them is the worst of both worlds.  Maybe they will force their way in or not, maybe the next generation sours and see the writing on the wall, like Kadenge suggests.  

As for Hamilton, i dont think many were thinking he would take Jozys minutes.  But it seemed like they moved him on (for an older player) as he was starting to make good on the effort they put into developing him.  7 starts, 4 goals and a budget salary before he went to the Crew.  Maybe Vanney never rated him or liked his style, fine.  But it wouldnt surprise me if Mullins was scouted for USDA as a teenager by Vanney and that why he was brought in.  

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54 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

Dont want this to become an MLS thread, but at some point their "elite" academy players are going to think twice about signing a first team contract and rotting away while being tied down with club options etc. Case in point : Okello.  Would he have been further along at Wolfsburg?.. he certainly is not progressing at TFC. Then there's the Fraser saga. Next up Jayden Nelsen and Jahkeele Marshall Rutty.....not saying they are the next David, but maybe they are seeing his success and thinking perhaps there is another way to the top?

I did a podcast on the matter and I was of the opinion that CPL is changing the landscape of Canadian Soccer

The transfer of Borges, Estevez, Waterman, Atletico Madrid Arrival, CONCACAF League & Canadian Championship are all factors where I predict that the 3 MLS teams will start "bleeding" their academies and young Canadian talents stuck on the bench or USL One.

They will start looking at the situation and at themselves about their realistic chances of playing 1st club minutes in MLS. Especially when you're young, playing TONS of minutes without worrying about being on a short leash allows the player to play with all their creativity, make mistakes and improve by learning on them. They know that a Borges type of performances gets you to Europe.

MLS teams have been sitting on their talent because THEY COULD due to their monopoly. Kids under contract had nowhere else to go. This will change and young Canadians will start making different choices.

This in turn might put more pressure on the MLS teams to give more minutes to them, or you'll start losing them. Until we get there, I could see "loan requests to CPL" drastically increasing

It's a crime for MLS clubs to be sitting on all that talent and not doing much with them. Develop them by playing them or get the F out of the way.

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9 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

......where was Wolfsburg when Okello was 12??  Its the MLS clubs that have put in the time and energy to help these kids along to the point they are ready for pro contracts.  The bottle neck for prospects in late teens is more problematic......

In past years, it was very unlikely that a  12 yr old Cdn kid would be scouted by a top 5  Euro league team...that's probably going to change with the performance of Davies and David. All 3  Cdn MLS teams are doing an amazing job developing players...there's no argument there, its as you point out, playing time.  Loans among MLS teams dont seem to happen. I pointed out Okello as he is behind Fraser at this point and we all know what happened when Bradley was injured

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11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I did a podcast on the matter and I was of the opinion that CPL is changing the landscape of Canadian Soccer

The transfer of Borges, Estevez, Waterman, Atletico Madrid Arrival, CONCACAF League & Canadian Championship are all factors where I predict that the 3 MLS teams will start "bleeding" their academies and young Canadian talents stuck on the bench or USL One.

They will start looking at the situation and at themselves about their realistic chances of playing 1st club minutes in MLS. Especially when you're young, playing TONS of minutes without worrying about being on a short leash allows the player to play with all their creativity, make mistakes and improve by learning on them. They know that a Borges type of performances gets you to Europe.

MLS teams have been sitting on their talent because THEY COULD due to their monopoly. Kids under contract had nowhere else to go. This will change and young Canadians will start making different choices.

This in turn might put more pressure on the MLS teams to give more minutes to them, or you'll start losing them. Until we get there, I could see "loan requests to CPL" drastically increasing

It's a crime for MLS clubs to be sitting on all that talent and not doing much with them. Develop them by playing them or get the F out of the way.

I agree with all that, but would tweak things a little by saying this is less a crime of sitting on talent and more a case not having a suitable places to foster that talent. 

As you rightly point out, the Canadian Premier league is bridging that gap, which is what we really needed.

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If you dont have a suitable place to foster the talent, then you shouldnt turn down offers for 18 year olds that garner interest.  They should have taken the marks from Wolfsburg and wished Noble luck.  You sit on DUnn, Okello, Romeo, Perruza etc, what does Nelsen or Rutty think?  At least TFC still spends the cash for their USL team to help them along.  

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