deVos: Apathy toward Canadian soccer is why nothing is going to change

[Raven]

http://www.tsn.ca/apathy-toward-canadian-soccer-is-why-nothing-is-going-to-change-1.189326

[El Hombre]

http://www.tsn.ca/apathy-toward-canadian-soccer-is-why-nothing-is-going-to-change-1.189326

Not impressed with this article.

 

The reason why we don't treat soccer the same as hockey is because we don't think we're the best.  We are a nation of self-loathing Canadians when it comes to soccer.  I find it disingenuous of JDV to put this (at least partly) on the fans when he is partly to blame.  Part of the reason we don't think we're the best is because people who commentate on soccer in the mainstream media are far more critical of the Canadian players than they are of others, for whatever reason.  It is difficult to watch a TFC game and listen to De Vos wax poetic about how (extremely mediocre) players like Mark Bloom and Nick Hagglund are the type of players to build a team around and then hear him go on and on about a mistake Henry makes even though he's younger than both.  Never is this more evident than the PK Henry gave up last year after Morrow completely messed up and he did what he could to stop a clear goal or during the loss against NYRB when Morrow completely let either Cahill go and Henry then had to cover bother T. Henry and Cahill.  Was Morrow ever called out?  Nope.  It was just Henry.

 

It's a fact that your perception of a player's abilities is influenced by what the "expert" commenting on the game is saying.  If JDV wants to foster a little pride in Canadian soccer, he needs to do his part as well.  Even with this article, he starts by saying that this is the best group assembled by Canada.  Where was the coverage of that?  It seems like it's much easier to write a negative article than a positive one.  Maybe stop pointing fingers and write something about Boakai, or Adekugbe's Liverpool jaunt or Carreiro who was up until 2am following the team from Scotland.  That's a lot harder though.

 

Meh.  Whatever.

[Barthez-Battalion]

Not impressed with this article.

 

The reason why we don't treat soccer the same as hockey is because we don't think we're the best.  We are a nation of self-loathing Canadians when it comes to soccer.  I find it disingenuous of JDV to put this (at least partly) on the fans when he is partly to blame.  Part of the reason we don't think we're the best is because people who commentate on soccer in the mainstream media are far more critical of the Canadian players than they are of others, for whatever reason.  It is difficult to watch a TFC game and listen to De Vos wax poetic about how (extremely mediocre) players like Mark Bloom and Nick Hagglund are the type of players to build a team around and then hear him go on and on about a mistake Henry makes even though he's younger than both.  Never is this more evident than the PK Henry gave up last year after Morrow completely messed up and he did what he could to stop a clear goal or during the loss against NYRB when Morrow completely let either Cahill go and Henry then had to cover bother T. Henry and Cahill.  Was Morrow ever called out?  Nope.  It was just Henry.

 

It's a fact that your perception of a player's abilities is influenced by what the "expert" commenting on the game is saying.  If JDV wants to foster a little pride in Canadian soccer, he needs to do his part as well.  Even with this article, he starts by saying that this is the best group assembled by Canada.  Where was the coverage of that?  It seems like it's much easier to write a negative article than a positive one.  Maybe stop pointing fingers and write something about Boakai, or Adekugbe's Liverpool jaunt or Carreiro who was up until 2am following the team from Scotland.  That's a lot harder though.

 

Meh.  Whatever.

We had pride. Did you see how much hype our U20s had? Problem is when we believe in Team Canada they typically let us down. It's a vicious cycle.

[Obinna]

But then when they let us down we revert to "they suck". Never, "tough go but we'll be back". I do believe Canadians are by and large self-loathing, and have an inferiority complex for all sports not hockey, curling, or other obscure winter sports that don't come to mind right now.

As fans, we need to big up our players and our teams, even if they don't deserve it. Same for the media. If bloom is getting praised and Henry is getting shit on, that does not push the agenda of promoting our own. I also make no apologies for using "agenda". If our own media does nott gush over Canadian players, who will?

I love how the states do this. It is really over the top and can be annoying and on the verge of delusional when they rate their players, but it is self serving and there are absolutely no negatives in taking this approach from their perspective. Can we start by doing the same on this board, please?

[jpg75]

http://www.tsn.ca/apathy-toward-canadian-soccer-is-why-nothing-is-going-to-change-1.189326

My problem is this; first he describes the U20's as a promising group of kids at pro clubs, but how did they end up there if our pyramid is so broken? Clearly these kids have some talent right? And they didn't just get there withour being good youth players. Such as...point two, these same kids qualified at the U17 level and competed (2 draws). Seems to me the top of the pyramid is broken with a lack of opportunities at domestic clubs due to the win now, don't bother developing young players mindset of MLS clubs.

[TFC07]

My problem is this; first he describes the U20's as a promising group of kids at pro clubs, but how did they end up there if our pyramid is so broken? Clearly these kids have some talent right? And they didn't just get there withour being good youth players. Such as...point two, these same kids qualified at the U17 level and competed (2 draws). Seems to me the top of the pyramid is broken with a lack of opportunities at domestic clubs due to the win now, don't bother developing young players mindset of MLS clubs.

 

You're right, but grassroot is far from perfect and needs to be fixed as well.   So both top and bottom needs to be fixed (hopefully LTPD works out)

 

I personally believe in the long term we need all Canadian league that will have much bigger influence on Canadian soccer  than MLS when comes to developing players and more importantly having strong Canadian soccer culture that we need desperately need.  If we can't form all Canadian league, then hope every Canadian cities has their own pro team playing in American pro soccer leagues.  

 

As of right now, both MLS and NASL academies are having positive impact on youth players which is going to get better now that we got 3 USL Pro teams. Hopefully playing in USL Pro will help develop kids to become starters for MLS clubs.  

[Blackdude]

You can't put apathy and Lord Bob in the same article. Unless it's about the Czech 3rd division.

[Barthez-Battalion]

This article is quite depressing. He's not wrong though when it comes to the hands off approach the CSA has. It's terrible. And there is no one fighting to change it. This article basically says there's  no point in believing in soccer in this country

[Soccerpro]

How do you develop players with so few pro teams?

Who pays to offer more coaching to amateur coaches? Why should they bother taking the courses?

[Cheeta]

But then when they let us down we revert to "they suck". Never, "tough go but we'll be back". I do believe Canadians are by and large self-loathing, and have an inferiority complex for all sports not hockey, curling, or other obscure winter sports that don't come to mind right now.

As fans, we need to big up our players and our teams, even if they don't deserve it. Same for the media. If bloom is getting praised and Henry is getting shit on, that does not push the agenda of promoting our own. I also make no apologies for using "agenda". If our own media does nott gush over Canadian players, who will?

I love how the states do this. It is really over the top and can be annoying and on the verge of delusional when they rate their players, but it is self serving and there are absolutely no negatives in taking this approach from their perspective. Can we start by doing the same on this board, please?

 

Television has been a God Send and A Curse to Canadian footie.  I've never seen so may people interested (and reasonably educated) in the sport in my life and its all thanks to the TV coverage which wasn't there not so very long ago.  However, in its 24/7 fashion it also highlights just how much further we have to go.

 

The boosterism you see on the US network coverage would never fly up here.  Think most Canadian footie viewers, even the causual ones, are a bit too learned in the game to stomach it.  It just doesn't translate well up here.

 

Another thought, I'm not 100% with what JDV wrote about the flaws of the "winning at all costs" mentality which supposedly exists within a large part of the current development system.  I don't think I'm alone in feeling as though some of our "most talented" youth players of the past few years are lacking, broadly speaking, in that mentality.  To their, and our, detriment.

[The Ref]

"the problem is that we don't produce players good enough to play professional soccer. And the solution to that problem lies at the bottom of the pyramid, not at the top."

 

Great and well written article Mr. DeVos, but please don't blame the fans.  Regarding what you call the bottom of the pyramid let me say that there are a few clubs who do a fair to average job of player development.  Not enough maybe and probably so.  But what I see time and time again is a breakdown that occurs between the very bottom of the pyramid and the next steps moving upwards to the next layer of the pyramid.  Youngsters who show potential and natural ability are either not supported by their parents or channeled to other sports with more rewards or more commonly to pursue a professional college career.  So we end up losing those good kids to be left with just "run of the mill" ones.  That there may be exceptions, for sure, but too few and far in between.  How to fix this when we don't have a soccer culture, I have not as yet figured it out.

[Marc]

I actually agree with him.  I think fans are to blame.  For ages there was apathy, and it was holding the game back in the media, in the stands and on the field.

 

The problem for De Vos is he doesn't fundamentally understand fandom.  Fans are like plants.  They're a product of their environment and culture.

 

I can understand where De Vos is coming from.  He's played professionally at a high level and seen lesser players from lesser leagues and less wealthy countries gather from disparate locations across the world to make the world cup against all odds.  That's got to sting.

 

And while we can blab on about the "system", realistically it's not going to change until there is a sustained economic and cultural shift in terms of how the game is viewed by administrators, coaches, players, fans and families.  And that will only maybe sorta potentially possibly probably not even happen until we have some highprofile, sustained success.

 

But as for that success, the reality is that in a country like ours we have to have a confluence of factors at the exact right time to have sustained growth and a permanent shift in the culture of Canadian soccer.  There is a very small window in which success can happen and have a sustained impact.

 

We've had two of these windows in "recent" history -  the Gold Cup win, and the recent qualifying campaign.

 

In both cases, it wasn't the fans or the system or the CSA or CONCACAF that failed.  It was the players.

 

He knows the sacrifices that he and his colleagues have made just to fail.  He can't realistically call them (and hisself) out.

 

Maybe demanding success in a window that slim is a lot to ask of the players.  But just as you can't expect plants to sprout in a barren field, you can't expect fan culture to shift without success.

 

Sure, 90 percent of life is showing up.  But soccer isn't life and in soccer winning matters.  Maybe that's harsh but that's the expectation you take on when you answer the call and don the shirt.  Three generations of players have failed at that.  And for that, only the players can take the blame.

[Admin]

1. Why the F&^&ING SH!T is an article with the word apathy in the title feature us in the picture?  Someone is really being an asshole there.

 

2. Clearly it's not so broken if we can put players into pro clubs in Europe and even put players onto European national teams.

 

3. This is no defense of a system that needs to be completely rebuilt.  That I totally agree with, but I think the challenges are more complex than everything sucks.

[Califax]

Also, he's not blaming the fans. He's blaming those who aren't, and should be.

[Marc]

The problem is that nobody "should" be a fan of anything.

 

Maybe De Vos learned his fandom during his stint in the UK and fundamentally does not understand sportsfan culture in North America.

[Califax]

The problem is that nobody "should" be a fan of anything.

 

Maybe De Vos learned his fandom during his stint in the UK and fundamentally does not understand sportsfan culture in North America.

 

Care to elaborate?

 

TFC announced in Toronto in 2006. I love soccer, I love beer, I love supporter culture. You don't think they were counting on people that fit that demo to be fans?

 

I think that anyone who watches soccer and is patriotic, "should" be a fan of Candian footy.

 

Apologies if I'm not understanding.

[shermanator]

In my opinion, the apathy for the general public towards the men's national team is the direct result of 30 years of failure from said team. The only notable exception being the 2000 Gold Cup. Why do fans born and bred in this country cheer for the country of their heritage over the one that gave them a very high standard of living? Simple, because they win enough to get to the highest level of the game.

 

Just look at the support for the women's national team from the general public, and how much better it is than for the men's team. Could the men's team sell 28000 tickets for a friendly in Winnipeg? I doubt it.

 

The only thing that will change apathy from the general public is results on the pitch. The results have not been there since 1985, so fans who are on the fence will stay away and make jokes about which third world country can beat Canada in a game.

[lazlo_80]

Duane Rollins brought up a good point on Twitter about this article. Apathy has nothing to do with why something can't turn around in this country.

 

Tennis Canada turned around with noone watching, as did Basketball Canada. Just because something doesn't have as much mainstream attention as hockey, doesn't mean it can't be fixed. It's actually a little absurd in that article that he doesn't blame Rob Gale, he was the one who trotted out a weird lineup to that Cuba game. There should absolutely be some blame put there.

[Lord Bob]

1. Why the F&^&ING SH!T is an article with the word apathy in the title feature us in the picture?  Someone is really being an asshole there.

The square-headed guy looks like he's kinda having a stroke and it's really hard to illustrate apathy. "Canadian soccer fans, close enough!" said some web editor.

[canucklefan]

I believe some of the Voyageurs members can be blamed too, I mean those that will blame the refs, the coaches and everyone else except the players, and specially those that will criticize the others for their "negativity". I don't think there's necessarily a bad thing for the players. If it's true that players read the forums, so what? If they feel affected by what they read here, I wonder how they must feel on game day or when they are playing on the field.

 

I always said that the better players can play at any club under any pressure, and criticism when things aren't going the way one expects is part of professional football. We all know that in countries where football is part of their culture criticism is way worse.

[rob.notenboom]

The square-headed guy looks like he's kinda having a stroke and it's really hard to illustrate apathy. "Canadian soccer fans, close enough!" said some web editor.

Lord Bob. Face of apathy or face of apoplexy?

[ted]

I find it strange that he seems to feel that somehow professional soccer in Canada will have less effect on bringing soccer passion to the general population than changing how small shildren are coached.

 

Am I missing something?  Are beer-drinking, ticket-buying, radio-show-calling adults really going to get more excited about the coaching certificates of local U14 teams than about a game between pro teams?

 

As others have said, I don't disagree that better coaching is needed at the bottom of the pyramid but that cannot be accomplished without the example of and leadership from the top of the pyramid. And BTW the "suits" at the CSA and the Provincial Associations are not even part of that pyramid, they are off to the side providing support.

[Jason deVos]

I was directed here by a member of the forum, who told me that a number of you were upset at a recent article I wrote. Let me address some of the issues you've raised here in this thread: 

 

"I find it disingenuous of JDV to put this (at least partly) on the fans when he is partly to blame."

 

I haven't put this on the fans, and certainly not on the members of this forum. Look up the definition of the word 'apathy' - it is the complete opposite of the word 'fan'. I didn't write, or imply, that any of the fans of our men's and women's national team are to blame for anything. The vast majority of people involved with youth soccer - which is what the article was actually about - are not fans of soccer in our country. They are the people who are apathetic, not you. 

 

"Part of the reason we don't think we're the best is because people who commentate on soccer in the mainstream media are far more critical of the Canadian players than they are of others, for whatever reason."

 

My job as an analyst is to provide unbiased expert opinion on the game. I don't have a favourite team, coach or player; I don't care what nationality, race, creed, colour or gender the players are - it is my job to inform the viewer of what I see as an analyst, given my background and experience in the game. You may not agree with what I say, and that is fine - everyone is entitled to an opinion. But to suggest that I am more critical of Canadian players than I am of others is wide of the mark. (I've been called a lot of things over the years, but being called anti-Canadian is a first.) 

 

"My problem is this; first he describes the U20's as a promising group of kids at pro clubs, but how did they end up there if our pyramid is so broken?"

 

I have said this many times before (and I think I've got a pretty good understanding of this subject): The players who reach our national teams - both male and female - do so by chance, not by design. Not a single knowledgeable technical mind who has an understanding of how Canadian youth soccer operates thinks that what we are currently doing is working; we do a terrible job of developing youth soccer players. Do we have some kids that manage to find their way through a broken development system to reach the national team? Yes, we do. I was one of them. 

 

"Another thought, I'm not 100% with what JDV wrote about the flaws of the "winning at all costs" mentality which supposedly exists within a large part of the current development system."

 

I've seen 10-year old kids with player registration books that have been stamped by five different youth clubs. Why? Because people (parents) believe that in order for their kid to "make it", they have to be on a "winning" team. So they bounce their kid from team to team each year, in search of a team that "wins". All the while, their kid fails to develop the skills he/she needs in order to succeed in the game long-term. What is worse is that the child is taught a terrible life lesson, which is this: If you don't get your way, quit and go somewhere else. This mentality permeates our youth development system. 

 

"The square-headed guy looks like he's kinda having a stroke and it's really hard to illustrate apathy."

 

For the record, I don't choose the photos that accompany the blogs I submit. I had to laugh at the photo that was selected, though - I don't think there is anyone in our country who is less apathetic than Ben! 

 

I appreciate your passion and your desire to see the game improve in Canada. If you have questions or concerns with something I've written or said, just send me a message on Twitter - I promise I won't two-foot you! 

 

Cheers,

 

JDV 

[Gian-Luca]

Anyone else find it ironic that somebody who works for a national sports broadcasting company is having a go at the general sporting public for being apathetic about an U20 tourney that most people didn't know about because it wasn't broadcast on television? I mean, who, outside of a handful of die-hard fans, even knew that this tourney was happening or that this was supposed to be a bumper crop. I must have missed all the hyping of the team in the regular media. And what fan apathy of the national team has to do with minor youth soccer is tenous at best. If this was a bumper crop of talent, how is the system now suddenly failing (or worse than before) - if if this U20 performance is considered a major failure given the talent that we have, then how can the problem be that we aren't producing the grassroots talent? His argument appears to be illogical and far more flawed than the ones he claims in the article are flawed.

 

The "stats" on the MLS roster's are misleading given that we are in the off-season and players from last season have moved or have been moved and we don't know yet how many of the younger players (or players still to be acquired) will step up to get regular minutes - it would appear the likes of Chapman, Hamilton, Mannella Thomas & Aparicio have had their entire seasons written off already.

[shermanator]

IIRC, Sportsnet held the rights to the tournament, not TSN.