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Jay Chapman


Dub Narcotic

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I guess I fall into the camp that believes that our players need to see regular time on the pitch at the appropriate level. If there are two players of near equal ability and one is playing regularly and the other one trains with a better team, I would lean toward the player who is getting meaningful minutes in games.  Osorio playing 30 games of 80+ minutes in Philly or SJ would do more for his advancement then training with "better" players in my opinion.

I really hope that none of our players have ever entered a game with the defeatist attitude that we can't win.  Being in winning environments is great, but I would like to think that every time the team suits up that they feel they can get a result regardless of who and where they are playing.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Club Linesman said:

I guess I fall into the camp that believes that our players need to see regular time on the pitch at the appropriate level. If there are two players of near equal ability and one is playing regularly and the other one trains with a better team, I would lean toward the player who is getting meaningful minutes in games.  Osorio playing 30 games of 80+ minutes in Philly or SJ would do more for his advancement then training with "better" players in my opinion.

I really hope that none of our players have ever entered a game with the defeatist attitude that we can't win.  Being in winning environments is great, but I would like to think that every time the team suits up that they feel they can get a result regardless of who and where they are playing.

 

 

I agree, especially when you're talking MLS where the difference between top and bottom is minimal.  

I could buy the argument (somewhat) of being on a winning team if we were talking about being on the bench of Juventus against starting for Crotone but even then it would probably be best to start.

There is absolutely no argument to even be had that it's better to start for Philly than be on the bench for TFC.  I don't think it's possible to develop a defeatist mentality in MLS, you can go into any game thinking you'll win.  

Edited by Keegan
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11 hours ago, Club Linesman said:

I guess I fall into the camp that believes that our players need to see regular time on the pitch at the appropriate level. If there are two players of near equal ability and one is playing regularly and the other one trains with a better team, I would lean toward the player who is getting meaningful minutes in games.  Osorio playing 30 games of 80+ minutes in Philly or SJ would do more for his advancement then training with "better" players in my opinion.

I really hope that none of our players have ever entered a game with the defeatist attitude that we can't win.  Being in winning environments is great, but I would like to think that every time the team suits up that they feel they can get a result regardless of who and where they are playing.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Keegan said:

I agree, especially when you're talking MLS where the difference between top and bottom is minimal.  

I could buy the argument (somewhat) of being on a winning team if we were talking about being on the bench of Juventus against starting for Crotone but even then it would probably be best to start.

There is absolutely no argument to even be had that it's better to start for Philly than be on the bench for TFC.  I don't think it's possible to develop a defeatist mentality in MLS, you can go into any game thinking you'll win.  

Why are you talking about "training at TFC" versus "playing in SJ or Philly"? 

Also, there is a big difference between "being glued to the bench" at TFC and being rotated in and out of the starting line-up at TFC.

I thought we are talking about Osorio playing 1500-2000 minutes a year, rather than +2000 minutes like we've seen? Yeah, if he was playing 1000 minutes or less for TFC, of course it would be better for him to move on, but I don't see that happening, do you guys?

As for winning mentality, winning is a habit. I'm sure our players always go into games believing they can get a result. They are professionals. I think that is different than habitually winning. 

One of the biggest problems with our program is that we are habitual losers when the games actually matter. On paper our team should be qualifying for the HEX regularly, but I think our psychologically we have an issue.

The cure is to get over the hump and build on it, but in lieu of that I believe playing for clubs who regularly win is a good remedy.

That being said, I think Osorio winning cups at TFC as a rotational starter is more valuable than being a locked in starter at SJ or Philly (I don't mean to pick on them, just an example). When you factor in domestic cup games, playoff games and champions league games, he'd probably log the same amount of total minutes anyways. They'd just be more valuable and that's better for the national team. I'm sure you'd both agree.

 

Edited by Obinna
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6 hours ago, Obinna said:

That being said, I think Osorio winning cups at TFC as a rotational starter is more valuable than being a locked in starter at SJ or Philly (I don't mean to pick on them, just an example). When you factor in domestic cup games, playoff games and champions league games, he'd probably log the same amount of total minutes anyways. They'd just be more valuable and that's better for the national team. I'm sure you'd both agree.

 

Not to mention that he's playing with and learning from better players when he is on the field

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I agree with most of the above.  We need to get rid of the losing mentality we have at the NT level.  What is wrong with players like Osorio having to fight for their starting spots, rather than handed a starting role on a Canadian team just because he is Canadian.  Maybe when we get over this "entitled" mindset, we may actually start qualifying for hexes and WCs.

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On 06/05/2017 at 8:33 PM, One American said:

Surprised no one has had much to say about Jay today in his first start against One of the best players on the field for his 65 minutes. 

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2017/05/06/homegrown-no-10-shines-tfc-analysts-den?autoplay=true

Article from Doyle to go along with the video.

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2017/05/06/armchair-analyst-chapman-shines-toronto-fc-take-three-seattle

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12 hours ago, Obinna said:

That being said, I think Osorio winning cups at TFC as a rotational starter is more valuable than being a locked in starter at SJ or Philly (I don't mean to pick on them, just an example). When you factor in domestic cup games, playoff games and champions league games, he'd probably log the same amount of total minutes anyways. They'd just be more valuable and that's better for the national team. I'm sure you'd both agree.

 

Him being on a winning team whether starting or part of the regular rotation will also help him out for his future contracts. If he was starting on a losing Philly team and his contract was not extended by Philly he would not have as much demand as being part of a winning Toronto team and not getting his contract extended there. Leaving a winning team he would easily get looks from other team. Leaving a losing team he would have to beg for a spot.

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I think it would be better if TFC didn't go of its way to sign average foreign players to take up roster spots and playing time from the Canadians. Presumably if Chapman gets more playing time it will come at the expense of Osorio. One token Canadian for another. 

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On ‎2017‎-‎05‎-‎10 at 0:19 AM, One American said:

I think it would be better if TFC didn't go of its way to sign average foreign players to take up roster spots and playing time from the Canadians. Presumably if Chapman gets more playing time it will come at the expense of Osorio. One token Canadian for another. 

They both played yesterday and both were vanilla in their impact as evidenced by the substitutions in the second half. Osorio I'm not going to rag on as his performance was neither here or there. Chapman....well Caldwell summed it up nicely during one moment where he said "He's got to be quicker, he had acres of space," which harkens back to my early criticisms of him being too complacent. During that moment, he should have driven up the field like muthafuckin game changer but instead he opted to turn around, play it safe and dish it off to somebody else. Now, his performance wasn't bad by any means but if he wants to solidify a starting spot, he needs to be a consistent driving force. It looked even worse for him when Raheem Edwards came on and completely changed the whole dynamic of the game to the point where his two crosses led to Ricketts' game tying and game winning goals. However, to Chapman's credit, Edwards' role was more easily defined as an out and out winger.

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10 minutes ago, Big_M said:

He had one great game but Osorio is better than him and has done much more. Chapman needs to work on his defensive side to become a good CM/DM because he will never be a starting 10 in this league.

That would require a whole shift in his game. He just needs to work on his strengths and be assertive like Raheem Edwards. If Chapman can fine tune his current game and maximize what he does now, he can be like a watered down version of Javier Pastore, and that's not a bad thing IMO.

Edited by Macksam
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3 hours ago, Macksam said:

They both played yesterday and both were vanilla in their impact as evidenced by the substitutions in the second half. Osorio I'm not going to rag on as his performance was neither here or there. Chapman....well Caldwell summed it up nicely during one moment where he said "He's got to be quicker, he had acres of space," which harkens back to my early criticisms of him being too complacent. During that moment, he should have driven up the field like muthafuckin game changer but instead he opted to turn around, play it safe and dish it off to somebody else. Now, his performance wasn't bad by any means but if he wants to solidify a starting spot, he needs to be a consistent driving force. It looked even worse for him when Raheem Edwards came on and completely changed the whole dynamic of the game to the point where his two crosses led to Ricketts' game tying and game winning goals. However, to Chapman's credit, Edwards' role was more easily defined as an out and out winger.

Totally agree! Chapman did seem a bit out of sorts, like he wasn't fully certain that he COULD drive up the field like one of them muthafuckin game-changers. He just needs more minutes.  And a bit more self-confidence.  But confidence will come with minutes and some success. I still see more potential in Chapman's game than I do Osorio's, for what it is worth.

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7 hours ago, shamrock said:

If he scores more than once or can provide a couple of assists, he'd be better than Osorio. I don't think that bar is too high...

Gotta beat 4 goals and 5 assists that Oso had in 2016 in MLS play and toss in 2 goals and I am not sure how many assists in Voyageurs cup play. 

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Osorio has never been that good judged either by counting stats (G, A) or advanced stats (xG, xA). He's also got enough of a sample size that we know what kind of output to expect from him. Chapman may or may not end up being better than Osorio over the next few years, but it's a no-brainer to pay Chapman $90k rather than pay Osorio $250k next year for TFC.

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15 hours ago, The Beaver said:

Totally agree! Chapman did seem a bit out of sorts, like he wasn't fully certain that he COULD drive up the field like one of them muthafuckin game-changers. He just needs more minutes.  And a bit more self-confidence.  But confidence will come with minutes and some success. I still see more potential in Chapman's game than I do Osorio's, for what it is worth.

I think Chapman has better technique overall than Osorio, which is perhaps why you see more potential?

I should note that Kyle Bekker also has better technique than Osorio.

What Osorio does have over both of those players is an ability to play quickly and change directions in tight spaces. It is what makes him crafty. 

 

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10 hours ago, One American said:

He did hit the 40 yard ball to Altidore that ended with the penalty, correct? 

Correct. Chapman was far better on the night that Caldwell's "missed opportunity" comment on the TSN broadcast would suggest, but I've already said my piece on that in the TFC thread. I'll just add that as Osorio has played most of his career not in a #10 role, I'm not seeing why this needs to be an  either/or between the two of them for next season (if it was either or between Chapman and Camargo, that would be another matter). There is room for both on the squad. If TFC really feel they need to save money under the cap next year at the moment it would be International Roster-spot taking Cooper that would be the obvious candidate rather than one of the domestics.

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1 hour ago, Dub Narcotic said:

Osorio has never been that good judged either by counting stats (G, A) or advanced stats (xG, xA). He's also got enough of a sample size that we know what kind of output to expect from him. Chapman may or may not end up being better than Osorio over the next few years, but it's a no-brainer to pay Chapman $90k rather than pay Osorio $250k next year for TFC.

Not sure why this is a Chapman vs Osorio thing, there are a few guys that could be moved out to make cap space.  Delgado and Cooper are making 210K, and 189K this year.  If you want to give Osorio a 60K (190 to 250k) raise next year you can trim some fat elsewhere in the midfield.  I'm sure Vanney would love to have Cooper, Delgado, CHeryou, Chapman, Edwards, Osorio, Vasquez, Bradley, Endo etc, and have a million options for every scenario.  But somebody has to go.  And there are always cheap new signings from TFC2 you can bring in, like Edwards has been this year.  Make some room for young guys in the pipeline (Johnson, Frasier and Akinola)

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I'm no particular fan of Cooper either. The best TFC midfield right now is: Bradley (holding, deep-lying creative), Delgado (workrate and tempo) and Vazquez (creative and link). Osorio, Cooper, Chapman and Cheyrou are all fighting for the backup/rotation spots so salary hit very much plays a part as does versatility.

There's a new advanced metric called xGChain that measures players' contribution in passing chains that lead to positive-xG shots but it's hard to find that stat for individual players. Osorio may look better in that than he does in some of the better-established metrics but right now he's a very average MLS midfielder and it's no coincidence that he wasn't started in MLS Cup and that Vazquez was brought in the off-season to challenge/replace him.

However, I do think he's much better than Bekker, who is a division 2 level player.

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Hmmm, passing chains.  Sounds interesting.  Thats why I kind of like the second assist (hockey assist) in MLS.  It gives guys credit for being in the positive "passing chain"  that actually produces a goal.  

Delgado is having a nice run, but Osorio has had nice runs in the past as well (end of last season).  Maybe TFC does see Edwards and Chapman as the new "poster boys" for the can con and they will deal Osorio.  Hate to see them move him over 50k in salary.  What does your average spot starter/depth kind of midfielder (couple goals/couple of assists per season) get these days in MLS?  

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Here's the passing and xgChain map from Toronto - Columbus mid-week. The gold/silver/bronze stars are the three starters who were highest in xGChain for that game. The rest of the map is the number of completed passes for the player and etc.. as explained by the legend. 11tegen11 posts these on Twitter for most MLS games but I don't think anyone is aggregating them anywhere. I find them really useful for game analysis.

 

KJyW4Uu.png

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  • 9 months later...
On 17/10/2014 at 11:00 PM, Soccerpro said:

If you were jay chapman would you want to go to TFC? Has that move ever worked out well for any young player?

Bumping this thread. Aketxe is on the bench tonight. No sign of Chapman. This guy really needs to move on. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for him. 

 

On 02/01/2015 at 5:23 PM, 1996 said:

Niki Budalic Jay Chapman's agent,   is that the Niki Budalic the former player who played in Sweden I think,  and for the Toronto Lynx?

If Budalic has a relationship with him maybe he would consider bringing him to Orlando.

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