Wandrille Lefevre

[Gian-Luca]

17 hours ago, matty said:

It will definitely be decided by a third party but it's not a matter of justification but authority which is a different thing. Any justification the Impact have is thrown out the window if they overstepped but had MLS issued the suspension it would quite likely stand. I too am interested in what the CBA violations are beyond the team issuing the suspension.

As you know so much about good and bad lawyering, I trust you will agree that a lawyer advocating for Lefevre's rights will attack this issue every possible angle with respect to a suspension not being justified, whether the argument rests on ultra vires or from the Impact not acting in a reasonable manner or some other grounds not yet discussed in this thread - rather than hoping for one or the other. The issue of whether and how offensive this joke with a pellet gun actually is and how much it can reasonably be linked to be representative of the views of the club or the conduct of its business would be germane to whether the Impact have acted reasonably. It doesn't surprise me that they would start by trying to throw out the suspension on the ultra vires grounds, as those types of arguments are usually the easiest to make & succeed with. It just amazes me - if what the Union says is true - that the Impact wouldn't know what was in the CBA. (Or that they wouldn't seemingly care). I had assumed that they did at least have the power to do as they did.

[dyslexic nam]

53 minutes ago, Macksam said:

I'll concede my argument here. Looking back, my initial post was suggestive and I looked at it from only one point of view.

I thought we were supposed to argue about it for another 6 pages?

[Gian-Luca]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

It is a concern to the club because if it is not clear than people are going to draw their own conclusion and many will assume to worst (that it involves violence towards the president). He wouldn't be the first public figure to insinuate such action against Donald Trump

It has to be a reasonable conclusion drawn though - what would the "reasonable person" be deemed to think? Personally I have a hard time being convinced that a person, acting reasonably, would be scared for Donald Trump's life on the basis of that post saying "protect yourself" with a smilie with a picture of him with a pellet gun.

[Ivanovski94]

Is it safe to say most people didnt give a shit about the post until the Impact decided it bothered them. Had they just dealt with it internally and talked to Wandrille privately(ask him to change caption or take down post) then this whole issue would never have been revealed.

[mikey_s_]

Sounds like this isn't his first faux pas. Patrick Friolet makes it sound like he will be released shortly.

[Blackdude]

Patrick Friolet from RDS is reporting that Lefevre was already on the outs before the incident. Kyle Fisher leapfrogged him on the depth chart  and he wasn't liked by the team this year. So, this incident added fuel to the fire. 

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

I thought we were supposed to argue about it for another 6 pages?

Well, you made a good point about Saputo theoretically needing to protect himself. I do believe you should be considerate with your speech in the sense you shouldn't put somebody else in a position of undue financial hardship, unless it's for something warranted of course. While a social media blunder like this could theoretically cause such a thing for Saputo, I don't believe this situation had or has that potential. Like Ivanoski mentioned, taking him aside for a few seconds and just having an Ed Snyder "boys will be boys....but just be a little more careful," type of conversation is all that's really needed.

1 hour ago, Ivanovski94 said:

Is it safe to say most people didnt give a shit about the post until the Impact decided it bothered them. Had they just dealt with it internally and talked to Wandrille privately(ask him to change caption or take down post) then this whole issue would never have been revealed.

This.

[shermanator]

Not really a surprise that they are considering releasing him. I've always thought he was overrated on this board by many, although to be fair I don't watch the Impact as much as other clubs.

Time for him to move to NASL or USL, like Ouimette did.

[fmfranck]

4 hours ago, Moldy9 said:

Maybe you don't live in Qc and are out of touch or just numb to all the shootings going on since it's a common occurrence in the news with a stupid fart comment. I'll break it down to you.

A French white male "Québécois" went into a mosque and shot and killed six men. Lefevres comment made reference to Trump. It can be seen as pro or anti depends how you want to spin it. I personally think this was a poor joke w Wandrille wanting to play tough guy with BB guns and a gangsta profile pic like he were joining the Alan Walker revolution or something but regardless stupid of him being a pro athlete having many followers and fans, some kids.

The way he came out with his message can be interpreted different ways by different people especially considering the Right movement in France at this time. 

Also it's my belief and most Montrealers would concur whether you're a supporter of a team or a player should not blind you from standing up to something you feel is not correct or enable you to think. That's why us Montrealers are very critical of our teams and players performances, we just don't pack butts in a stadium and give the Entertainment Group money blindly or cheer them on when they underperform unlike some other teams and their fans. 

 

5

 

Dude, I'm a montrealer, and i lived in Québec city for 4 years. I am well aware of the context that you implied, I just disagreed that this context was relevant to how his picture could be interpreted. I stood in the blistering cold for hours at the Montreal vigil the day after the shootings to show my support. You don't know me personally, so you shouldn't make assumptions. 

Also, don't claim to speak for all Montrealers. I know a fair few Impact supporters (myself included) that can relativize mistakes made by human beings and not throw them under the bus. Lefevre is a good guy, and definitely didn't mean any harm in his comment. If anything it was self-deprecating humor. I think it's over-analysis when you bring in the FN and Le Pen into the fray, or the mosque shootings. You're giving it the worst possible context to show your point, so I made that illustration in joke form with my fart analogy.

According to itk reporters at the Impact practice today, it seems he (alongside Jackson Hamel btw) will be released from the squad shortly. So I guess a lot of people got their wish. We truly live in a Brave New World where information is used as a weapon to shoot people down as soon as their is an opening to do so. As a Quebecois Moldy, you should know one of the precepts of our law system :  good faith is presumed.

[fmfranck]

2 hours ago, mikey_s_ said:

Sounds like this isn't his first faux pas. Patrick Friolet makes it sound like he will be released shortly.

 

 

Then they should've released him for sporting reasons. Suspending him now means that if they release him, they're liable to a lawsuit imo. 

[Obinna]

3 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

It has to be a reasonable conclusion drawn though - what would the "reasonable person" be deemed to think? Personally I have a hard time being convinced that a person, acting reasonably, would be scared for Donald Trump's life on the basis of that post saying "protect yourself" with a smilie with a picture of him with a pellet gun.

I agree with you and at the same time I see why the club felt that it had to take some sort of action. Yes a reasonable conclusion would not deem his post as a security threat, but we live in a world with many unreasonable individuals, unfortunately. 

[Obinna]

On 4/12/2017 at 2:24 PM, Grizzly said:

There is an argument to say that political statements reflect on the organization but at the same time we claim to live in countries where free speech is protected. 

I've been thinking about this. Yes we claim to live in countries where free speech is protected, but it's not like his free speech was revoked or shut down. I question where free speech comes into play in this situation.

[Obinna]

BTW, bummed that Jackson-Hamel is set to be released. I thought he could really have an impact with the...ah..impact.

[Grizzly]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

I've been thinking about this. Yes we claim to live in countries where free speech is protected, but it's not like his free speech was revoked or shut down. I question where free speech comes into play in this situation.

It looks like this may play a role in him losing his job. If we have the right of freedom of speech yet you can lose your job any time your employer doesn't like what you say on social media it is more a freedom of speech in theory than reality other than for people who don't work.

[Grizzly]

I haven't seen anything in Fisher that warrants him being a replacement for Lefevre. He is 5 years younger so maybe he will develop but count me as skeptical because I have not seen any special ability and have questioned why they kept him on the team. I think at present he is a downgrade from Lefevre.

[Grizzly]

5 hours ago, Moldy9 said:

Grizz, Chrétien said no to the Americans invasion of Iraq in 2003 (Bush's claim of WMD which as we all knew were false) unless it was backed by the UN. And helping the UN? I think you're referring to NATO. 

That is what he and the government want you to believe. The truth is Chretien was not against the war, he did not think the war had enough public support to put boots on the ground so he publicly said we would not fight in it and then behind the scenes he provided a lot of support to the war with things such as ships in the Gulf ostensibly on an anti-terror mission but providing supplies, support and security for American troops and ships, supplying weapons, helping with military planning, increasing our troop commitment to Afghanistan so the US could free up troops there to send to Iraq, political support in various arenas such as the UN (Chretien himself said things like the US had the right to invade and people should not criticize the invasion because that is siding with Saddam Hussein). The US ambassador at the time said "“ironically, Canadian naval vessels, aircraft and personnel will supply more support to this war in Iraq indirectly than most of those 46 countries that are fully supporting our efforts there.” We did the same thing in the Vietnam War, publicly against it but behind the scenes supported the US as much as we could.

Canada as peaceful peace-keeping nation is a myth, it is our narrative to absolve ourselves of responsibility for the western US led exploitation of most of the poorer countries in the world which relies on us keeping countries under leadership that is obedient to our demands and/or keeping them unstable in constant turmoil. The US as Hillary so aptly put is the indispensable nation, low general level of education and much of the population in poverty or prison (where they are working in the world's only current large scale gulag system) so they are more gullible to lies and more accepting of violent incidents while some of the richer and more educated countries like Canada sometimes claim to sit on the sidelines when there are wars they can't sell to their population but we help in any other way we can. Then when things go bad like in Iraq we can say, "Oh it was those Americans again, good thing we didn't get involved."

How fast did Trudeau step in line with Trump and the US on the Syria gas attack which has all the hallmarks of a false flag from asking initially for a UN investigation to wholeheartedly supporting the missile attack? We are even back to bombing Syria despite Trudeau's election promises, yes we aren't dropping the bombs but we are flying refueling planes for the jets that are dropping the bombs  and reconnaissance planes to tell them where to drop the bombs. We are not a peace keeping nation, we are a war mongering nation just like our neighbours to the south. But as long as we are fed day and night the message that we are peace keepers for human rights people stay docile and don't question our actions in the world just like the Americans are constantly fed a similar but different message about being the "indispensable nation", "the city on the hill", "the protector of freedom", "the greatest nation in history". The world does not need more Canadas, the world needs Canada to live up to the morals it professes to hold.

[Ivanovski94]

You are a breath of fresh air to listen to, Grizzly.

[Macksam]

7 hours ago, fmfranck said:

Dude, I'm a montrealer, and i lived in Québec city for 4 years. I am well aware of the context that you implied, I just disagreed that this context was relevant to how his picture could be interpreted. I stood in the blistering cold for hours at the Montreal vigil the day after the shootings to show my support. You don't know me personally, so you shouldn't make assumptions. 

Also, don't claim to speak for all Montrealers. I know a fair few Impact supporters (myself included) that can relativize mistakes made by human beings and not throw them under the bus. Lefevre is a good guy, and definitely didn't mean any harm in his comment. If anything it was self-deprecating humor. I think it's over-analysis when you bring in the FN and Le Pen into the fray, or the mosque shootings. You're giving it the worst possible context to show your point, so I made that illustration in joke form with my fart analogy.

According to itk reporters at the Impact practice today, it seems he (alongside Jackson Hamel btw) will be released from the squad shortly. So I guess a lot of people got their wish. We truly live in a Brave New World where information is used as a weapon to shoot people down as soon as their is an opening to do so. As a Quebecois Moldy, you should know one of the precepts of our law system :  good faith is presumed.

Unfortunately I have seen this all too much in the private sector. If a manager is insecure and wants to get rid of you, they will gather as much evidence, relevant or not, to justify the decision. 

2 hours ago, Grizzly said:

It looks like this may play a role in him losing his job. If we have the right of freedom of speech yet you can lose your job any time your employer doesn't like what you say on social media it is more a freedom of speech in theory than reality other than for people who don't work.

I especially thought it was rediculous when that guy lost his job at Ontario Hydro over the Shauna Hunt FHITP incident. There was literally nothing to trace that back to the company he worked for, and even if people did dig up some info on him, I doubt they would have pressured the employer to fire him. 

2 hours ago, Ivanovski94 said:

You are a breath of fresh air to listen to, Grizzly.

Indeed.

[BCM]

9 hours ago, shermanator said:

Not really a surprise that they are considering releasing him. I've always thought he was overrated on this board by many, although to be fair I don't watch the Impact as much as other clubs.

Time for him to move to NASL or USL, like Ouimette did.

I find it interesting that he's been almost universally loved on this board but now all of a sudden he's always sucked and had no future anyway.

[BCM]

We have the freedom of speech in the constitutional (public law) sense, but this does not mean that a private employer must tolerate all such protected speech.

[fmfranck]

7 hours ago, BCM1555362349 said:

We have the freedom of speech in the constitutional (public law) sense, but this does not mean that a private employer must tolerate all such protected speech.

 

Actually, contrary to the Canadian charter or rights and freedom, the Québec charter may give rise to cease-and-desist orders and to compensations for damages not just in the public sector, but also in private affairs. Also it includes many rights that the Canadian charter doesn't, especially in matters of equality in work relations. 

 However, in this case I think a lawsuit would be better protected with dispositions from the Loi des normes du travail (Act respecting labour standards), which is basically Québec's base collective labor agreement.

However, in regards to his contract being with MLS, I'm not sure how that would work.. 

[Stryker911]

8 hours ago, BCM1555362349 said:

I find it interesting that he's been almost universally loved on this board but now all of a sudden he's always sucked and had no future anyway.

I fully support a player that put the time and effort into becoming a Canadian citizen. I also could care less what someone posts on social media, and I don't see why anyone else should either. He seems to be a proud Canadian and represented us everytime he was asked. His actions of getting his citizenship should say a lot more about him as a person then a tweet.

[Obinna]

13 hours ago, Grizzly said:

It looks like this may play a role in him losing his job. If we have the right of freedom of speech yet you can lose your job any time your employer doesn't like what you say on social media it is more a freedom of speech in theory than reality other than for people who don't work.

Yeah I agree with you there. It is theoretical far too often.

I know we are getting off topic, but how do we enforce free speech in a case like this? If it is the government's role to enforce free speech, and they deemed his firing (let's call it) as a violation, then is the state overreaching by intervening in the decision of a private business?

I am for the protection of free speech in so far as to prevent individuals from being jailed, for example, but I don't know where I stand when it comes to an example like Lefevre's. Thoughts?

[shermanator]

9 hours ago, BCM1555362349 said:

I find it interesting that he's been almost universally loved on this board but now all of a sudden he's always sucked and had no future anyway.

Where have I ever said anything complimentary about Lefevre?

[BCM]

Just now, shermanator said:

Where have I ever said anything complimentary about Lefevre?

Yeah, sorry while my comment was in response to what you posted I was not trying to say that you were part of the lovefest. I tried to cover that with the "almost universally loved" line but did think you may misinterpret it. Apologies.