IceCreamMan Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Is there any proof of bad blood between the two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obinna Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I hope nobody is surprised at his strike rate. He led the line for us for most of last cycle and did it well. By our standards he's pretty accomplished. Has scored 18 league goals one season in the 2. Bundesliga. Followed that up with 5 or 6 goals in the first Bundesliga, and then transferred to Eintracht Frankfurt. Yeah he has been loaned out from there for a lot of his contract but the fact they even wanted him to begin with speaks to his quality. I for one would welcome him back and his absence might simply be that he's done with international football at his age, because he obviously has the quality still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 He actually only scored once in the 1st Bundesliga in 18 appearances/995 minutes. The best 2nd Bundesliga year was 17 goals for Furth. In the end it was a mistake transferring from Furth to Frankfurt as in Furth the offence was built around him. They were always destined to stay only 1 year in the 1st Bundesliga and I doubt that would have changed had Occean stayed but his personal stats would likely have been a lot better. Can't blame someone for being ambitious though and going to the bigger club with more potential but also a lot more competition for your spot. He should definitely be called to the national team now that he is back to playing and scoring regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havoc88 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Is there any proof of bad blood between the two? No, however, I'm surprised despite him possibly warranting a call up on his play, how his actions from the previous WCQ aren't called into question. He goes down "injured", missing a critical game only to play for his club four days later, and after the crash and burn dumps on the coach whose assistant is now our Technical Director. I seriously doubt Fonseca has been telling Floro what a reliable team player he is and what a sparkling attitude he has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king1010 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 No, however, I'm surprised despite him possibly warranting a call up on his play, how his actions from the previous WCQ aren't called into question. He goes down "injured", missing a critical game only to play for his club four days later, and after the crash and burn dumps on the coach whose assistant is now our Technical Director. I seriously doubt Fonseca has been telling Floro what a reliable team player he is and what a sparkling attitude he has. Carlos Tevez was labeled a bad apple at Man City. Leaving the team to play golf in the middle of the season. He came to Juventus and rejuvinated his career and put his heart and soul on the line. Not every player is going to be an outstanding citizen. You have to manage players differently. Especially one who is scoring so regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havoc88 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Carlos Tevez was labeled a bad apple at Man City. Leaving the team to play golf in the middle of the season. He came to Juventus and rejuvinated his career and put his heart and soul on the line. Not every player is going to be an outstanding citizen. You have to manage players differently. Especially one who is scoring so regularly. Fair enough, however, Tevez has never wavered for Argentina. IMO club vs country is a bit apples and oranges. I won't disagree there should be consideration based on his play, however, for reasons I stated we shouldn't be surprised if we never see him suit up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king1010 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Fair enough, however, Tevez has never wavered for Argentina. IMO club vs country is a bit apples and oranges. I won't disagree there should be consideration based on his play, however, for reasons I stated we shouldn't be surprised if we never see him suit up again. Not entirely true. Tevez was out of the Argentina squad for 3 years(sound familliar?). His hieatus away from the national team began when he started complaining (sound familliar?) about where the coach was playing him. http://m.timesofindia.com/sports/football/world-cup-2014/top-stories/The-Carlos-Tevez-conundrum-for-Argentina/articleshow/36091507.cms Observers close to Sabella agree there is something in this. In addition, they say, Tevez carries clout with the media, and would probably "leak" his complaints to the outside world, creating rifts within what might otherwise be a harmonious and amenable group. If Tevez felt he wasn't starting as much as he would like, he would agitate "the people," who in turn would start protesting. Sabella, it is understood, wouldn't want that. He is after peace and tranquility above all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havoc88 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Yeah I should have been more specific with "wavered" - I'm referring to the specific incident I've highlighted re Occean as the comparison. We can discuss/compare Occean/Tevez, and yes there are similarities but massive differences in the situations as well. I don't want to rail on Occean so I'll leave what I've posted as part of the discussion. For me, not really interested in seeing him back and would rather build up the youngers guys who are committed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king1010 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I think the issue is that wcq is now and the younger guys wont build up in time for wcq in the fall. In occean we have a proven goal scorer. The build up can begin once the 2018 cycle ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shway Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I think the issue is that wcq is now and the younger guys wont build up in time for wcq in the fall. In occean we have a proven goal scorer. The build up can begin once the 2018 cycle ends. + Agree. Larin is not the answer, he is the future. And in the system we currently play right now, it should be Larin subbing for Occean. His hold up play, strength, and current scoring rate will be perfect for the next round of WCQ. I just hope that one day we can say we have called in all our best available players...absent injuries, club hold backs, ect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havoc88 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I think the issue is that wcq is now and the younger guys wont build up in time for wcq in the fall. In occean we have a proven goal scorer. The build up can begin once the 2018 cycle ends. Sorry tried to delete this lol I started talking about round three and I'm assuming you're talking about round four. We can get through round three with the players we have and I would wait on draw/schedule on round four to decide heading into it if the players we have are in good enough form to be relied upon. Ensuring Hutch is game and available too IMO is the deal breaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king1010 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Sorry tried to delete this lol I started talking about round three and I'm assuming you're talking about round four. We can get through round three with the players we have and I would wait on draw/schedule on round four to decide heading into it if the players we have are in good enough form to be relied upon. Ensuring Hutch is game and available too IMO is the deal breaker. If we're going to include Occean, the earlier he joins camp and gets accustomed to the formation the better. Regardless of who we draw in round 4 we're going to need him. Easy group or not. We'll be playing the like of El salvador, Jamaica etc where we need to win at home to have a chance. Bringing Occean on in 4th round wcq without him having a training camp under his belt is not a good idea. And we shouldn't be waiting to see who we draw. We need to be proactive, not reactive. We have trouble scoring, period. Regardless of who we draw, all teams from now on out will be difficult to score against given our pedigree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havoc88 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 If we're going to include Occean, the earlier he joins camp and gets accustomed to the formation the better. Regardless of who we draw in round 4 we're going to need him. Easy group or not. We'll be playing the like of El salvador, Jamaica etc where we need to win at home to have a chance. Bringing Occean on in 4th round wcq without him having a training camp under his belt is not a good idea. And we shouldn't be waiting to see who we draw. We need to be proactive, not reactive. We have trouble scoring, period. Regardless of who we draw, all teams from now on out will be difficult to score against given our pedigree. We can beat the drum for him based on his performances, but as I've noted, I'd honestly be very surprised if he gets called up again. In fact, I'd bet we'd see Will Johnson before we see Occean back in a Canada kit. If we are going to make noise about two guys suiting up for us it should be Hutch and Johnson IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king1010 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 We can beat the drum for him based on his performances, but as I've noted, I'd honestly be very surprised if he gets called up again. In fact, I'd bet we'd see Will Johnson before we see Occean back in a Canada kit. If we are going to make noise about two guys suiting up for us it should be Hutch and Johnson IMO. no need to make noise about hutch suiting up for us. He will do so when healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcalibre Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Radzinski abandoned the CanMNT and Holger while scoring Champions League goals against Man Utd and Lazio. A few years later he puts on a "sack the CSA" t-shirt and all of a sudden he's a Voyageurs legend. No reason we should turn our backs on Occean if he's still got gas in the tank (and, for that matter, the likes of Hoilett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 No, however, I'm surprised despite him possibly warranting a call up on his play, how his actions from the previous WCQ aren't called into question. He goes down "injured", missing a critical game only to play for his club four days later, and after the crash and burn dumps on the coach whose assistant is now our Technical Director. I seriously doubt Fonseca has been telling Floro what a reliable team player he is and what a sparkling attitude he has. Him missing Panama away was a massive slap in the face. That was a crucial match and he bailed, we get a result there and we're laughing. Why should we count on him again? Especially when we have a younger and arguably better option in Larin. I say we stick with the kid and let him find his feet, this was his first competition. I think Occean should be called in absolutely, but Larin should still be the man going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king1010 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Him missing Panama away was a massive slap in the face. That was a crucial match and he bailed, we get a result there and we're laughing. Why should we count on him again? Especially when we have a younger and arguably better option in Larin. I say we stick with the kid and let him find his feet, this was his first competition. I think Occean should be called in absolutely, but Larin should still be the man going forward. We dont have time to let larin find his feet. We cant afford him learning from mistakes in wcq. As others pointed out radz bailed on us and came back. Larin is the guy going forward obviously. But right now he isnnt ready to be consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 We dont have time to let larin find his feet. We cant afford him learning from mistakes in wcq. As others pointed out radz bailed on us and came back. Larin is the guy going forward obviously. But right now he isnnt ready to be consistent. And Occean at 33 years old is suddenly going to find his feet? The fact is that both have been scoring at good rates this season but Larin is younger, has a better strike rate for Canada, more tools and more potential. Neither is a world beater but Larin might just pull something special for us. Occean can be a nice super sub or option if Larin is down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obinna Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 The only thing that should matter is form. Age does not matter with WCQ on the line. If 33 year old Occean gives us a better chance than 20 year old Larin, then so be it. As for this comment about Larin having more tools, that's certainly debatable. They are about the same size and have roughly the same pace and I personally think Occean is more dynamic with his movement than Larin (and also has a softer first touch), although the kid has proven he can score from distance, which I haven't seen from Occean really. I'd say bring both in and let them push each other. I just hope both keep their strike rates going at club level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havoc88 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 We dont have time to let larin find his feet. We cant afford him learning from mistakes in wcq. But we have the time to bring in a guy who will feign an injury ahead of a pivotal game and get a stupid red before the do or die match in wcq? Maybe he can mentor Larin and Akindele? "Hey if Floro subs you out, the next match just say you've hurt your back, that will show him. Doesn't matter if it's a critical game and Canada fails to qualify. Your club football is more important anyways." Pick your poison I suppose on either player. I'd rather set the right example of the attitude and acceptable behaviour for a national team member, especially to the younger players coming up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king1010 Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 And Occean at 33 years old is suddenly going to find his feet? The fact is that both have been scoring at good rates this season but Larin is younger, has a better strike rate for Canada, more tools and more potential. Neither is a world beater but Larin might just pull something special for us. Occean can be a nice super sub or option if Larin is down. Find his feet? Hes scoring regulary at a high level already and knows of the pressures of concacaf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king1010 Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 But we have the time to bring in a guy who will feign an injury ahead of a pivotal game and get a stupid red before the do or die match in wcq? Maybe he can mentor Larin and Akindele? "Hey if Floro subs you out, the next match just say you've hurt your back, that will show him. Doesn't matter if it's a critical game and Canada fails to qualify. Your club football is more important anyways." Pick your poison I suppose on either player. I'd rather set the right example of the attitude and acceptable behaviour for a national team member, especially to the younger players coming up. That red card was BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Find his feet? Hes scoring regulary at a high level already and knows of the pressures of concacaf. So is Larin and Occean has never performed in CONCACAF save for scoring the goal in the 1-0 away win to Cuba. Larin in one year already has half the goals Occean scored in his MNT career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king1010 Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Ya. And larin was really able to produce when it mattered against similar opposition we'll be facing in wcq this past gold cup.... Im not saying let occean walk in and take larins spot. Im saying bring him into camp and let floro evaluate what he sees. What we have right now clearly isnt good enough. We cant score. Not every athlete has a perfect past. We were having the same convo with radz 12 years. A country like us who cant buy a goal cant NOT call up a guy like occean scoring regularly in a decent league and europa leage. Unless of course we want to die on our high horse and crash out of wcq after a bunch of 0-0 draws and 1-0 losses bc 4 years ago the player threw a temper tantrum. Hes never had any serious attitude issues at club level, and his biggest issue with the NT was a professional coach. We have that now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 It is not normal to start a young striker who should be playing on the Olympic team for WC qualifying. In hardly any nation in the world is it done. You cannot give a kid that much responsibility and then call him out when he fails. Larin started slow for Orlando and has risen well to the occasion. Okay, so he has some quality service, but there is patience for him at the club too. Sometimes a player's time has past and I think it is the case for Occean. He plays at a low level. He just scored Europe League vs. a very weak rival, probably lower than any team at the GC (sorry Irish club fans). Larin is playing at an arguably higher level now, and will be in 2 years. And then you have the question of the group and there is no guarantee that Olivier can fit into it the way it now is set up. Of course any striker needs help, so the most important questions are: what is the system to get goal-scoring chances, for strikers and others; how have you set up your key goal scorers to get the most of them. I actually think we did the two things okay, we got chances from open play, chances from set pieces, and chances from chance situations. We had missed from strikers and from defenders, but mostly strikers. That sounds about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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