Increasing the Canadian MLS Quota

[VWFC]

Perhaps someone who thinks "giving" Canadians playing spots is so bad would care to share their thoughts?

 

I think they already did.  

[tmcmurph]

One spot for a "Canadian as a domestic" on each US based team is the same as 6 on each of our clubs. Going by percentage of population we would get 2 "Canadians as domestics" for the equivalent of 12 players signed to each of our teams. I'll believe it when I see it but I hope it was more than just talk about fixing that gross inequity.

 

As to the MLS helping make the US player pool better well yes it has but it is only one factor. They acquire talent from other countries and add to their pool that way a lot. They also have a larger number of teams for their players to work at (18 vs our 3).

 

The playing time was not gifted to the American players. There were 8 spots allocated to foreigners so at least 3 starters had to be domestics. Originally that was it and in a low paying league, like MLS was for its first decade, they attracted a lot of NCAA types who weren't good enough for Europe.

 

But shortly after the teams realized a loophole and started exploiting it. A lot of the foreign players got their green cards after living/working there for 2 or more years (including Dero). Not all were eligible for the US MNT but still counted as domestics. The "real" US players still had to take the spot from them.

 

So more playing opportunities at all levels helps but that is all it is. An opportunity. They still have to be better than the competition at their spot.

 

As I said earlier if a player can't crack a MLS starting 11 is he really going to be a help to our Canadian MNT?

[VWFC]

One spot for a "Canadian as a domestic" on each US based team is the same as 6 on each of our clubs. Going by percentage of population we would get 2 "Canadians as domestics" for the equivalent of 12 players signed to each of our teams. I'll believe it when I see it but I hope it was more than just talk about fixing that gross inequity.

 

As to the MLS helping make the US player pool better well yes it has but it is only one factor. They acquire talent from other countries and add to their pool that way a lot. They also have a larger number of teams for their players to work at (18 vs our 3).

 

The playing time was not gifted to the American players. There were 8 spots allocated to foreigners so at least 3 starters had to be domestics. Originally that was it and in a low paying league, like MLS was for its first decade, they attracted a lot of NCAA types who weren't good enough for Europe.

 

But shortly after the teams realized a loophole and started exploiting it. A lot of the foreign players got their green cards after living/working there for 2 or more years (including Dero). Not all were eligible for the US MNT but still counted as domestics. The "real" US players still had to take the spot from them.

 

So more playing opportunities at all levels helps but that is all it is. An opportunity. They still have to be better than the competition at their spot.

 

As I said earlier if a player can't crack a MLS starting 11 is he really going to be a help to our Canadian MNT?

 

There's more to it than that.  You could right an essay on the factors contributing to the USMNT improvement, but ultimately when you're talking about CMNT its apples to oranges.

 

All that matters is what gets us ahead and that's youth - The CSA has it spot on with the USL pro quota for all 3 MLS sides.  Well done TFC on the recent announcement BTW.... wonder when TFC07 is going to criticize the TFC USL Pro announcement saying it's irrelevant and wont help the CMNT?.... sorry had to       

[Obinna]

Not picking on you obinna, bc there are others who have stated similar ideas, but IMO you are contradicting yourself here.

Why exactly should there be no restrictions in Canada bc players need to earn playing time, but Americans are better off, their players have longer careers and they have developed massively as a national team when their teams have restrictions on how many players must be American?

Why has this rule, which based on what a few posters are saying means American players are gifted playing time and they don't have to earn it, made their player pool deeper and their national side stronger?

 

I am not quite sure what point you're trying to make. From what I can tell, your point is: Canadian MLS teams should have a "Canadian quota"...since American MLS teams have an "American quota"....which has deepened their national team pool.

 

To that, I have to respond with: I would rather see Canadians and Americans count as "domestics" on every MLS team, AND I would like for every MLS team to have a "domestic" quota.

 

Does that make sense?

 

I think your confusion with my post comes from the Canadian side of things. For example, when I said: I don't believe a coaches selection should be influenced by nationality. That is restrictive and obviously not good for the club. Besides, our players need to EARN their playing time."  I was speaking in a Canadian MLS team context - that does not apply American MLS teams. This is because the Canadian player pool is WAY smaller and weaker than the American one at this time.

 

Lets say a Canadian MLS team has 5 Canadians and they are forced to start 3 (I am just making up numbers here for arguments sake). Those 3 players may not be useful in a tactical match up against [insert your favorite MLS team here], but your forced to start them anyways. That puts the team at a disadvantage ....clearly.

 

For American MLS teams, the situation is not comparable because instead of having 5 domestics, they typically employ anywhere from 12 to 20 Americans. When you are forced to start 3 out of 15 Americans, your a lot less restricted than having to start 3 out of 5 Canadians. See my point?

 

 

Edit: To make things clear, I don't support any rule that forces a team to start domestic players. I simply want to Canadians and Americans treated as domestics across the board. I want each team to have 8 international spots as they currently do. After that, let the chips fall where they may. I just want our players to have an equal opportunity, because right now they don't!

[Gordon]

Thought I'd link this old gem...for the pedantic Canadians are not "foreign" but really, practically, they might as well be. I have to admit that as negative as I was about mls, even I didn't think that we'd have Americans counting as domestic in Canada, without the reverse also being true.

http://www.thevoyageurs.org/index.php?/topic/6907-mls-commissioner-to-meet-with-mlse/

[jonovision]

Am I the only one who thinks that a league-wide rule that included both Americans and Canadians as domestic, and the elimination of the Canadian quota for Canadian teams, would result in fewer Canadians in MLS, not more?

[One American]

I don't think 68 starts would be onerous. It would simply incentivize giving Canadian players an opportunity, rather than bringing in players from the US or Central America to solve a club's problem.  Right now, that really isn't happening in some places. You would still need to earn the spot, because other players can earn the starts.

 

Is it ideal? Probably not. But neither is watching your best prospects languish as the clubs bring in players from the US or Latin America rather than draw from local sources and doing nothing about it. 

[A_Gagne]

Am I the only one who thinks that a league-wide rule that included both Americans and Canadians as domestic, and the elimination of the Canadian quota for Canadian teams, would result in fewer Canadians in MLS, not more?

 

yup, think you're probably the only one there.

[maccaliam]

 This is the first time I have ever tried to quote different parts of someone's answer and respond to it, so please bear with me if it isn't totally clear.

As to the MLS helping make the US player pool better well yes it has but it is only one factor.

Ok, good. Even if you don't like the quotas for Canada, I appreciate you acknowledging that such a quota has helped their player pool. Agreed it is only one factor though.

They also have a larger number of teams for their players to work at (18 vs our 3).

Which means they shouldn't needed a quota bc there are so many more opportunities for their players, yet they still have one.

 

The playing time was not gifted to the American players.

'Gifted' May be a poor choice of language, but if Americans didn't and still technically don't have to earn a starting spot by beating out a foreigner but rather be the best domestic, then you hopefully get my point.

There were 8 spots allocated to foreigners so at least 3 starters had to be domestics.

So if three spots in a starting 11 HAVE TO be filled by Americans solely bc of their nationality, that sounds like a quota system mandating a minimum number of starters (3).

 

So more playing opportunities at all levels helps but that is all it is. An opportunity. They still have to be better than the competition at their spot.

Not if you're one of those three Americans you don't. You just have to be the best American.

 

As I said earlier if a player can't crack a MLS starting 11 is he really going to be a help to our Canadian MNT?

I believe so, yes. Just because one coach doesn't rate you as ready or good enough, doesn't mean you aren't any good. Perhaps you don't fit that system or that manager is crap at judging talent. Look at how many players were deemed not good enough at TFC, who went on to being traded to American teams and becoming solid to good players for those teams.

[maccaliam]

I am not quite sure what point you're trying to make. From what I can tell, your point is: Canadian MLS teams should have a "Canadian quota"...since American MLS teams have an "American quota"....which has deepened their national team pool.

 

To that, I have to respond with: I would rather see Canadians and Americans count as "domestics" on every MLS team, AND I would like for every MLS team to have a "domestic" quota.

 

I would too. I just don't see that ever happening, so a Canadian quota for Canadian teams is the best we can hope for.

 

IEdit: To make things clear, I don't support any rule that forces a team to start domestic players. I simply want to Canadians and Americans treated as domestics across the board. I want each team to have 8 international spots as they currently do. After that, let the chips fall where they may. I just want our players to have an equal opportunity, because right now they don't!

As I've said above, I'm on board with this, I just don't see it ever happening.

[maccaliam]

There's more to it than that.  You could right an essay on the factors contributing to the USMNT improvement, but ultimately when you're talking about CMNT its apples to oranges.

I see it as more macintosh apples vs Granny Smith apples.

[jonovision]

yup, think you're probably the only one there.

 

I just don't think taking up an international spot is that great an obstacle to American teams signing Canadian players. Many of the don't use their full complement of international spots, and others use them on low-level bench fodder. If a Canadian is good enough, he'll play.

[tmcmurph]

Which means they shouldn't needed a quota bc there are so many more opportunities for their players, yet they still have one.

'Gifted' May be a poor choice of language, but if Americans didn't and still technically don't have to earn a starting spot by beating out a foreigner but rather be the best domestic, then you hopefully get my point.

So if three spots in a starting 11 HAVE TO be filled by Americans solely bc of their nationality, that sounds like a quota system mandating a minimum number of starters (3).

 

Not if you're one of those three Americans you don't. You just have to be the best American.

 

I believe so, yes. Just because one coach doesn't rate you as ready or good enough, doesn't mean you aren't any good. Perhaps you don't fit that system or that manager is crap at judging talent. Look at how many players were deemed not good enough at TFC, who went on to being traded to American teams and becoming solid to good players for those teams.

 

The American players have to beat out international players with green cards. That is a level of competition that is usually above the true domestic. They have also been at this for 10+ years more than Canada. They had a whole decade when very few internationals of serious quality were available for the prices they were offering. That was roughly 1994-2004. We missed that boat. It was a D2/3 type quality league. We were in flail mode for the whole time with our domestic leagues.

 

Yes in reality they have a 3 starter minimum but those as I've said are not always US MNT eligible. Now I'd be interested in how many domestics on US teams in the starting 11 are actually US MNT eligible. It takes 2 years to get a US domestic status but I think it takes 4 (5?) to get it in Canada. So we are behind the 8 ball on that one as well. 

 

Yes a lot of errors are made by coaches evaluating talent and it is always safer to go with a journeyman vet than take a chance on a young kid. That is where more opportunities like USL-Pro & NASL are so crucial.

[A_Gagne]

I just don't think taking up an international spot is that great an obstacle to American teams signing Canadian players. Many of the don't use their full complement of international spots, and others use them on low-level bench fodder. If a Canadian is good enough, he'll play.

 

Even if a team isn't using their full quota I think they'll still sign the domestic player over the Canadian one, because they have to use up a tradable asset in order to sign the player, and it also significantly decreases the player's trade value though within the league. If a Canadian player is good enough to be an established starter in MLS, this most likely doesn't matter, but I imagine it does significantly hurt their employability as depth players.

[Obinna]

^This.

 

It is the "depth" players that get hurt. I suspect that at least half the Canadians cut by TFC over the years would've become depth players elsewhere in the league. Andrea Lombardo or Gabe Gala or hell even Ali Gerba could be playing stateside right now. That is what irks me.

[Grizzly]

Andrea Lombardo? He was not even NASL quality let alone MLS quality. Not too sure about Gala either. Gerba would have been more tradeable if he would be considered domestic but still would have been a big risk for any team with his salary. Plus his treatment by the Impact seemed to be some sort of punishment for a transgression that no one knows what it was so I think they were perfectly happy to let him sit and not play even if it was costing them money because it finished his career.

 

I do agree more Canadian average and depth players would get the chance if they had domestic status which would also help them develop into better players but I think you need better examples than that.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Am I the only one who thinks that a league-wide rule that included both Americans and Canadians as domestic, and the elimination of the Canadian quota for Canadian teams, would result in fewer Canadians in MLS, not more?

 

Agree 100%. This domestic status issue is a problem that doesn't exist. The average cost for an international spot these days is a 3rd round pick or, in other words, free.

 

The real sham of the domestic quota system is that you can buy a green card in literally a few months. If we want to talk about advantages and disadvantages, we should be honest. The Canadian clubs have an advantage of a larger domestic pool. The US clubs have an advantage of a larger international pool. They can literally manufacture "international roster spots" with a quick call to a the right US immigration lawyer. Hence, these spots have no value (beyond the legal fees to get one, I suppose. Nothing in life is truly free). The US advantage is muted because Canadian clubs can trade for green card status players, leaving our clubs ahead and our players neutral.

[Obinna]

Andrea Lombardo? He was not even NASL quality let alone MLS quality. Not too sure about Gala either. Gerba would have been more tradeable if he would be considered domestic but still would have been a big risk for any team with his salary. Plus his treatment by the Impact seemed to be some sort of punishment for a transgression that no one knows what it was so I think they were perfectly happy to let him sit and not play even if it was costing them money because it finished his career.

 

I do agree more Canadian average and depth players would get the chance if they had domestic status which would also help them develop into better players but I think you need better examples than that.

Yes I admit the examples were pretty poor, but you do see my point. Chris Pozniak or Adrian Cann then?

[Obinna]

Agree 100%. This domestic status issue is a problem that doesn't exist. The average cost for an international spot these days is a 3rd round pick or, in other words, free.

 

The real sham of the domestic quota system is that you can buy a green card in literally a few months. If we want to talk about advantages and disadvantages, we should be honest. The Canadian clubs have an advantage of a larger domestic pool. The US clubs have an advantage of a larger international pool. They can literally manufacture "international roster spots" with a quick call to a the right US immigration lawyer. Hence, these spots have no value (beyond the legal fees to get one, I suppose. Nothing in life is truly free). The US advantage is muted because Canadian clubs can trade for green card status players, leaving our clubs ahead and our players neutral.

Great point but I think what you're saying is very theoretical. How many teams have actually called a US immigration lawyer to get a rush on a green card?

 

Conversely, how many Canadians were passed on because they would take up an International spot? I honestly don't know the answer of course, but I do remember back in 2008 when Stephen Hart said in an article that two of our players were being considered by MLS teams, but ultimately deemed not worth it since the clubs in question had no international spots available. I believe the two players were rumored to be Issey and Ricketts. 

 

Have any Canadian clubs ever employed a foreigner with a green card? Let's start with that first, then we can talk about whether or not we suspect a green card rush job. 

[youllneverwalkalone]

Great point but I think what you're saying is very theoretical. How many teams have actually called a US immigration lawyer to get a rush on a green card?

 

Conversely, how many Canadians were passed on because they would take up an International spot? I honestly don't know the answer of course, but I do remember back in 2008 when Stephen Hart said in an article that two of our players were being considered by MLS teams, but ultimately deemed not worth it since the clubs in question had no international spots available. I believe the two players were rumored to be Issey and Ricketts. 

 

Have any Canadian clubs ever employed a foreigner with a green card? Let's start with that first, then we can talk about whether or not we suspect a green card rush job. 

Yes, to the last point first. Half the Caps squad are US green card holders: Mattocks, Manneh, Ballouchy, Rosales, etc.

 

Seattle and Portland have been extremely aggressive getting green cards. Michael Gspurning literally had one in a few months, iirc.

[jpg75]

MLS really is turning into NASL 2.0. All we need now is a $5M salary cap, eliminate foreign player quotas altogether and expand to 30 teams.

[Michael Crampton]

Eliminate domestic quotas for any nationality, residency status, or national team eligibility in the entire league.

 

Canadian players, along with players from the rest of the world, would then have equal access to the American teams that American players enjoy.  There was a time when American soccer, and MLS were too immature to handle that.  I'll assert that it wouldn't be the case anymore and most American teams would, simply for convenience, employ Americans for more than 50% of their rosters.

 

Canadian teams would have the option of having no players on their squad, but there would still be 90 full time professional spots that give Canadian soccer players a chance to earn a career in their own country, and a massive open market to the south.  Given that Canadian players would enjoy an advantage in terms of cultural adjustment, language, and likelihood of being scouted, if they're good enough, they should have no problem finding spots and playing time on those teams.

 

Fix the development problems at the base of our game, and quit wasting time trying to microwave solutions that will make us feel better, but no have the effect people want.

[Cheeta]

MLS really is turning into NASL 2.0. All we need now is a $5M salary cap, eliminate foreign player quotas altogether and expand to 30 teams.

 

The salary cap and the byzantine rules around how its applied has to be examined if you want to address footballing quality.  $5M would be a reasonable start.  Domestic quotas also would need to be visited.  

 

No sense raising the salary cap to attract better players unless you make positions available for those players.

[Obinna]

Yes, to the last point first. Half the Caps squad are US green card holders: Mattocks, Manneh, Ballouchy, Rosales, etc.

 

Seattle and Portland have been extremely aggressive getting green cards. Michael Gspurning literally had one in a few months, iirc.

Wow, very interesting. I never realized that so many Caps are green card holders.

 

I suppose we can say that our teams also benefit from the green card loophole. At the same time we rightly should enjoy the same benefits as the American teams. We shouldn't be treated like second-rate citizens in that league. I can accept the fact that we're not allowed to qualify for the CCL through the league (which we should be allowed btw), but that's as far as it goes. There are 3 Canadian teams so it is a North American league and players from both countries should be domestics. Even if we weren't discussing the merits of whether or not it'd be beneficial for the CMNT, our players should be domestics based on principal alone.  

[Obinna]

Eliminate domestic quotas for any nationality, residency status, or national team eligibility in the entire league.

 

Canadian players, along with players from the rest of the world, would then have equal access to the American teams that American players enjoy.  There was a time when American soccer, and MLS were too immature to handle that.  I'll assert that it wouldn't be the case anymore and most American teams would, simply for convenience, employ Americans for more than 50% of their rosters.

 

Canadian teams would have the option of having no players on their squad, but there would still be 90 full time professional spots that give Canadian soccer players a chance to earn a career in their own country, and a massive open market to the south.  Given that Canadian players would enjoy an advantage in terms of cultural adjustment, language, and likelihood of being scouted, if they're good enough, they should have no problem finding spots and playing time on those teams.

 

Fix the development problems at the base of our game, and quit wasting time trying to microwave solutions that will make us feel better, but no have the effect people want.

Aside from generating revenue, I think domestic leagues have a responsibility to support national teams. That is why you see domestic quotas in every league.

 

I think that leagues around the world should actually beef up their domestic quotas - not reduce them and certainly not remove them. I am talking from a personal standpoint and not a business standpoint. I understand that imports can really add value to a club, both on the field and on the books. As a fan though, I think it would be awfully pointless if MLS, for example, was void of North American players. Cheap players from Latin America would flood in and take the vast majority of jobs away from North Americans. Maybe other people wouldn't mind, but I would personally lose interest in MLS.