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The Unofficial "The Caps Hate Canada" thread


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This argument seems to be going on in numerous threads at the moment, so we might as well give it its own thread. The premise is pretty simple: The Vancouver Whitecaps don't play Canadian players, and would rather fill open roster spots with American journeymen than young Canadians.

 

The evidence is this:

  • Toronto FC has two Canadian starters, has given other Canadians the chance to earn playing time, and will probably have more in the coming years.
  • Montreal is rebuilding with opportunities going to young homegrowns like Ouimette, Tissot, and JGL, plus Bernier starts every game. 
  • And Vancouver .... well, Russell Tiebert still gets significant playing time. Kind of.

 

The biggest case is that of San Adekugbe, the young Vancouver left back, who looks good in the occasional start, and then heads back to oblivion to watch the backline manned by the legendary Jordan Harvey, Johnny Leveron and Carlye Mitchell and Steven Beitashour. And what happened to Bryce Alderson?

 

The cruel twist is that most observers seem to think that the Vancouver academy has the cream of the Canadian talent, which makes their inability to find spots for them even more difficult to digest. If Vancouver were a top MLS team, that would be one thing. Bu they're not. The Canadian kids aren't stuck behind proven stars or proven winners. Just OK players batting around in the MLS mid-table. 

 

As an American, I find the nationalist posters here go out on limbs, but with this, I think they're dead on. I'm not sure why Vancouver isn't giving young Canadians opportunities. I just know that they are not.

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Not to dump on your idea, as consolidating all this would at least keep it out of other threads, but it would be nice if everyone could take a break from this discussion for a while. It's been going around and around for months with no real progress. Better to agree to disagree and move on to different discussions.

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Since the arrival of Collen Warner and the return of Michael Bradley, Doneil Henry has been the lone Canadian starter for TFC on several occasions.

 

I'd rather not single out the Whitecaps; the amount of Canadian content on all of Canada's teams, even the NASL sides, is pretty dismal in comparison to their American counterparts in the same leagues.

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Since the arrival of Collen Warner and the return of Michael Bradley, Doneil Henry has been the lone Canadian starter for TFC on several occasions.

 

I'd rather not single out the Whitecaps; the amount of Canadian content on all of Canada's teams, even the NASL sides, is pretty dismal in comparison to their American counterparts in the same leagues.

 

And the Creavalle move probably means even less time for all of Morgan, Bekker and Osorio because he plays multiple positions.

 

-----------------------------------

 

I'm not happy with the entire MLS in Canada experiment as it pertains to the CMNT. We were sold a bunch of lies to get MLS in Canada and the clubs than backtracked on their promises. This was originally started by TFC under Mo Johnston but the Whitecaps have definitely carried the torch on this as of late.

 

Having the quota dropped to 3 players was bullshit. It gives zero incentive to the clubs to produce better. My wish is that the quota is raised ever year, forcing the clubs to improve the situation. Than it is up to them to produce or find the players they need. The current system promotes laziness.

 

The Whitecaps are an easy target because of their past actions. They get singled out because they are by far the worst offender. But all 3 Canadian MLS clubs should be doing more. But it doesn't help when the fans of these clubs are dismissive of Canada and don't give a shit about the current situation.

 

And than of course the totally flaccid CSA is another issue. They shouldn't be making it so easy for the Canadian MLS clubs. I really wish the CSA would take a stand on this issue.

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Since the arrival of Collen Warner and the return of Michael Bradley, Doneil Henry has been the lone Canadian starter for TFC on several occasions.

 

I'd rather not single out the Whitecaps; the amount of Canadian content on all of Canada's teams, even the NASL sides, is pretty dismal in comparison to their American counterparts in the same leagues.

 

The Canadian content at FC Edmonton has dropped significantly since Colin Miller was hired. There are currently 3 regular starters: Smits, Edward and Jonke. Smits is only getting his spot because Parker is injured and Jonke has been a useless tit up front. Mallan Roberts was dropped from the starting XI in favour of someone from Trinidad. Hanson Boakai cannot buy a start despite being the best offensive threat in favour of two American journeyman. And the results STILL are not there. It's pathetic, really.

 

Even an NASL Best XI spot wasn't good enough to keep Paul Hamilton in the squad over a Northern Irish journeyman. Watson has been great, but a CB partnership of Watson and Hamilton would have been spectacular.

 

They're doing this in Ottawa as well. Brought in Ryan Richter on loan which pushed Drew Beckie to the bench (after a tremendous spring season I've heard)

 

I ride the Whitecaps ass for this on here as they are the worst example, but it really is a problem in all 5 of our professional teams.

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To save everyone's time here: simple solution to fixing this madness is an all-Canadian league where American players count as international instead of domestic.   This will change things while put more pressure on MLS Canadian teams and especially their academies to play Canadians or else risk losing them to Canadian teams.  

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I ride the Whitecaps ass for this on here as they are the worst example, but it really is a problem in all 5 of our professional teams.

 

Sorry all you haters and hyper-partisans but the fact is that the issues is matter of degrees. All 5 pro teams deserve criticism to a greater or lesser degree and frankly I still feel it is too soon to be judging their effectiveness in the development of Canadian players.

That judgement I think has to come between the next Gold Cup and WC qualifying as players from these clubs start to make an impact (or not).

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I got to point out that other reasons that the Caps have the "Hate Canada" reputation is that their was talk of them signing Owen Hargreaves and Lensky. Not to mention that their was rumours that they encouraged Bustos to turn his back on Canada.

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The Canadian content at FC Edmonton has dropped significantly since Colin Miller was hired. There are currently 3 regular starters: Smits, Edward and Jonke. Smits is only getting his spot because Parker is injured and Jonke has been a useless tit up front. Mallan Roberts was dropped from the starting XI in favour of someone from Trinidad. Hanson Boakai cannot buy a start despite being the best offensive threat in favour of two American journeyman. And the results STILL are not there. It's pathetic, really.

 

Even an NASL Best XI spot wasn't good enough to keep Paul Hamilton in the squad over a Northern Irish journeyman. Watson has been great, but a CB partnership of Watson and Hamilton would have been spectacular.

 

They're doing this in Ottawa as well. Brought in Ryan Richter on loan which pushed Drew Beckie to the bench (after a tremendous spring season I've heard)

 

I ride the Whitecaps ass for this on here as they are the worst example, but it really is a problem in all 5 of our professional teams.

We can complain about the Caps (some justified criticism), but I think we can all agree on one thing;

Colin Miller is Canada's worst soccer problem. Him getting fired and never coaching again would be great for Canada. 

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It's way too soon to give such critique to the Caps or any of the Canadian MLS teams for that matter. Building a decent set-up takes decades, right now there's barely any players coming through the ranks but you what? Kids aint good enough. Maybe some of them will grow to become good enough, but then they would need some minutes of play at some level. 

 

If you'r honest only Henry deserves his spot with TFC and Osorio maybe. In Montreal a kid like Ouimette is good to have around, but not as a starter centre back. Alderson in Van, everybody's talking about this kid but he looks very fragile to be honest. He should be playing week-in week-out at a lower level to show some of his potential. If he was better than Koffie, he would be playing for the Caps right now.

 

The way MLS works, you can get the best talent from top-colleges practically for free. I'm not a big fan of this kind of path but it is the biggest channel to get talent right now. It's extremely hard for Canadians to compete with that. Look at a kid like Drew Beckie for instance. He looks pretty solid, give him some years and he might get somewhere. Columbus cut his ass cause why would they invest all that time in him while they can get the next "next best thing" in the newest draft and roll the dice with that?

 

Everybody can get lucky with young kids. You know like Boakai who is obviously extremely gifted (no guarantees though whatsoever! (remember Adu?) But consistently developing talent takes time. At least they are investing in the Academies, The Caps maybe even the most with the addition of their Caps 2 USL Pro team.

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"They're doing this in Ottawa as well. Brought in Ryan Richter on loan which pushed Drew Beckie to the bench (after a tremendous spring season I've heard)"

 

Beckie is still the starter, injured himself last week. I am sure he will jump right back in when fit.

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Unfortunately, there are only a couple Canadian players in their prime, playing any where in the world, in any position, that I would have replace one of the whitecaps starting 11. And from that extremely short list, I don't think any of the players would come play for the Caps, for the money that they would earn.That is the real issue here, and that is what Canadians clubs are dealing with. Why aren't the Whitecaps playing more Canadians? Because they're not good enough. Does anyone really see Alderson replacing Koffie or Laba at this point in his career?

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Even an NASL Best XI spot wasn't good enough to keep Paul Hamilton in the squad over a Northern Irish journeyman. Watson has been great, but a CB partnership of Watson and Hamilton would have been spectacular.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but Hamilton's not playing pro soccer anymore since last season with Carolina, right?

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Correct me if I am wrong, but Hamilton's not playing pro soccer anymore since last season with Carolina, right?

 

That is correct. I've heard Hamilton turned down an opportunity to stay in Carolina, because it wasn't worth being 4000 km away from his wife to make less than what a retail job would pay.

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It bugs me as well about TFC: playing Jermaine Defoe at striker over Ashtone Morgan and Collen Warner over Quillan Roberts in the midfield. Why don't they loan Joey Melo to Wilmington to get him some playing time? TFC was the best with Maycoll Canizales and Marco Reda playing, that was a true Canadian team to be proud of. I'm sick of Americans like David Ousted and Pedro Morales taking all the spots from all of our good Canadian kids!

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It bugs me as well about TFC: playing Jermaine Defoe at striker over Ashtone Morgan and Collen Warner over Quillan Roberts in the midfield. Why don't they loan Joey Melo to Wilmington to get him some playing time? TFC was the best with Maycoll Canizales and Marco Reda playing, that was a true Canadian team to be proud of. I'm sick of Americans like David Ousted and Pedro Morales taking all the spots from all of our good Canadian kids!

0/10 trolling effort with this one.

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It bugs me as well about TFC: playing Jermaine Defoe at striker over Ashtone Morgan and Collen Warner over Quillan Roberts in the midfield. Why don't they loan Joey Melo to Wilmington to get him some playing time? TFC was the best with Maycoll Canizales and Marco Reda playing, that was a true Canadian team to be proud of. I'm sick of Americans like David Ousted and Pedro Morales taking all the spots from all of our good Canadian kids!

I can't believe TFC didn't sign Hargreaves or Lensky after their trials!!!

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 Here is something I will throw out there in the Caps defence, even though I feel some criticism is fair.

 

 

Caps are maligned for playing MLS journeymen and drafted guys over their home grown talent. The reality is MLS is not a development league and while developing young players is important, it takes a back seat to winning. The other issue is the ages and stage of development these players are in. Academy players are signed at 17/18 years old, whereas drafted guys enter the league at 22/23. How many players get consistent playing time in their nations top league at 17/18/19 years old? The answer is only a handful. By 22/23 drafted players are men who played consistently and ready to contribute(at least the handful of first round picks).

 

 

Canada has a broken development model, the academies are doing their job well, check the results in the CONCACAF U17's  and the U17 World Cup. However, at the CONCACAF U20's, Canada doesn't do well. By U20, most players are playing in professional environments and getting regular playing time. For Canadians in MLS, at 17/18/19, they are either at their academies (which is too low of a level) or with their MLS clubs  (too high of a level). With a lack of clubs in Canada at a high enough level, kids tend to rot on the bench and stunt their development when they are too young and green to be a solid contributor every night in MLS.

 

 

Now anyone who knows me will attest that I want the Caps to play/sign more Canadians,  give the kids more of a chance and called the caps out on a number of occasions. But we also have to recognize the reality of what I posted. We need more NASL clubs and perhaps (I am not a fan) more USL pro clubs so the good 17/18/19/20 year olds can play and train in a fully professional environment every day. Things that piss me off is Alderson on the bench, if he isn't going to play loan the kid somewhere to get playing time.

 

 

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Most the Caps young Canadians are not old enough 17 is not an age for most guys to be starting in any top division league.

 

 

I will say the Alderson case is a drag, he should be on loan, at the same time I see Coker leaving soon and Alderson then would have a case for the XVIII every game.

 

Also I would love to see Sam get more time at LB, but as much as I loathe Harvey he has been a solid option at LB.

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Why aren't the Whitecaps playing more Canadians? Because they're not good enough. Does anyone really see Alderson replacing Koffie or Laba at this point in his career?

 

I hear this debate every year, and I'm not sure how much water it holds.  Last year I'm pretty sure the example used Davidson rather than Koffie and Laba.  Davidson is currently playing NASL.  I really do think soccer fans in Canada suffer from some sort of inferiority complex.

 

 

 

But all 3 Canadian MLS clubs should be doing more. But it doesn't help when the fans of these clubs are dismissive of Canada and don't give a shit about the current situation.

 

I agree with that.

 

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A lot of my frustration with this whole issue is the lack of separation between club and country. They are 2 very different environments and only some of their interests overlap. I'm glad there is a separate thread for this because I'm sick of every thread about the Whitecaps being highjacked.

 

The clubs' role is to put a winning team on the field and make the playoffs. Nothing is more important too them. Last year when one of the reasons for firing Rennie was to bring more young players along and "if they're good enough they're old enough" type talk. Aside from Manneh and Teibert getting minutes what has changed? NOTHING. Coaches are kept or fired based on MLS results. The rest is window dressing.

 

Why so few Canadians getting first team minutes on the Whitecaps? There are several reasons.

 

1) Canadians they wanted and tried to sign didn't accept their offer. In one case turning down more money.

2) MLS is getting a lot better. It will be harder to crack the first team.

3) Some very talented players (Brody) go to university instead of signing on to the first team.

 

What they are doing is providing lots of opportunities for young players at all levels that didn't exist in Canada before.

 

Long before they joined MLS and before MLS even required it they started their academy. Not every talented player can go overseas for training from the age of 12 on and some of those that do sometimes defect. Now they can get the first rate training in Canada.

 

They have signed 5 players to pro contracts which is 2 more than the CSA mandates (but one less than I think the quota should be at, but I digress). That is a huge step. Full time paid employment to train with the first team daily. From there on it is up to the player to take the spot. That is several more huge steps.

 

As to the specific players and why they aren't getting as much playing time as people think they should I can only say we see them for 4-5 games and consider them ready while the coach sees them more than that in a week, month in and month out, and doesn't rate them as ready to take the spot.

 

Now to address the specific players and what they face. There is a lot of questions about why doesn't xyz get more starts etc. Here is my take on it.

 

Teibert - Fernandez: The latter has simply played better. I love watching Russell play and I think he will reclaim his spot but he has his work cut out for him.

 

Adekugbe - Harvey: Close but edge to Harvey in offense. Sam was probably told to "play it safe" against TFC because the other team know you are a rookie and will attack you. A lot of back passes early but got going forward more later.

 

Alderson - Laba/Koffie/NRC: Hell even NRC can't crack the starting 11 unless a DM / RB is injured. We'll see what opens up if Laba/NRC leave. Still not a given but he's got a shot at it.

 

Carducci - Ousted/Tornaghi: I'm very glad they started Carducci over Tornaghi in the V's Cup games. It would have been a whole lot easier and safer to have him backup Tornaghi in those games. I can see Carducci moving up to second keeper in the next 2 years.

 

Clarke - Mattocks/Hurtado/Manneh/Salgado: Very tough group to crack plus they are looking for an established striker so it will get harder.

 

So how many of these and others coming up will crack the first team and become starters? I don't know but they've taken the first step and got a pro contract. Now comes the real hard part. Moving up from the 30 to the gameday 18 to the starting 11 and then holding onto your spot.

 

Not signed but noticeable is Brody Huitema. The Caps still have the MLS rights to him. He chose to go to university (Duke, Div1 NCAA) and that is usually a smart choice for a young player. I hope it doesn't stunt his soccer development but even as a first year player he played all 19 games (18 starts), top Duke scorer with six goals and four assists. One of four rookies to earn All-ACC honors.

 

He may go to Europe and skip MLS. Would the Caps get credit for helping him develop? This is where I differ from some on here. I want 3 successful MLS teams because that pays for the academies that train kids from 12 up. With 3 first rate academies our pool of players expands massively. Most will not play for the MLS team that trained them. That is a point lost on a lot of people. The players will have choices and the best will probably to to Europe. I feel that the clubs should get acknowledgement for helping the players get there.

 

In the end does it matter to our MNT if a player is getting playing time in Europe D2 or MLS? No. It matters that they got there at all.

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I agree with most of the comments here: Yes, I wish all Canadian clubs were playing more Canadians. Yes, Vancouver has been the worst offender. Yes, the Whitecaps have (arguably) the best track record for player development. Yes, the Whitecaps have (arguably) the strongest squad of our 3 MLS teams.

 

Look, it is just a matter of MLS quality. The league is really improving rapidly, and the Caps have a very good team. Yeah they are mid table in the west, but watch their games and see the quality in that side. It is a very good team. 

 

Sadly, I believe our NT players benefit most when their clubs struggle. Montreal = poor form = Ouimette/Tissoit/JGL playing time. Toronto = improving = Bekker/Osorio decreased playing time. It is undeniable that a weak club presents opportunities for young players, and Vancouver is anything but weak. 

 

As an aside, look down south at the best MLS teams right now. Sounders, LAG, DCU, SKC etc... How many home grown players and rookies are getting tons of playing time? Not many. Sure a few might make an impact, but the Yedlin's and Gil's are not too common. 

 

On the flipside, Schipp is making a statement on a mediocre Chicago. Trapp is doing the same at a Mediocre Colombus. Would either of those guys develop this way if they were drafted into Seattle or LAG? Both would likely be glued to the bench. Hidden gems without the opportunity to blossom.

 

And that is what we see as Canadian fans. Good players, very good players. Cup games show us their potential.

 

In summery, we need more opportunities for our players. If we were considered domestics we could trade them stateside to clubs that may have a use for them, but as things are we are stuck with the loan option. That Div 2 league can't come soon enough....

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We need more NASL clubs and perhaps (I am not a fan) more USL pro clubs so the good 17/18/19/20 year olds can play and train in a fully professional environment every day. Things that piss me off is Alderson on the bench, if he isn't going to play loan the kid somewhere to get playing time.

 

This.

And please remember that the caps are starting an entirely new USL Pro team right in their own backyard. Once that is in place we should see an improvement.

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