Garber hints at change to 'Canadians as internationals' rule.

[Kent]

1 hour ago, Levi Oakey said:

This is quantifiable, and it's not true.


The problem is you are comparing us to the country with the largest media presence in the whole world. Yes we are north of America and that leads to us naturally comparing ourselves but it isn't worthwhile, we are comparable to countries like Australia, France, even the UK. 

Why did the BBC report on the two Canadian teams competing. It wasn't Drogba, it was Canada. They have actually had stories on TFC before. Also that game was the most viewed in MLS history, even more than any MLS Cup. I love our country but we are so self-deprecating.

Drogba, Ciman, even Giovinco you will find actually wanted to move to Canada over America. There are a host of reasons why. You mention that Canada has a limit on it's growth based on the fact that people only think of us as a nice place to live or move it. But with a national league, that's exactly what you need. I think you will honestly see some players choose to play in the CPL over MLS. Maybe not the marquee of marquee, but if I am a young El Salvadoran, Honduran or Mexican, do you think America is my first choice right now? You have to remember, soccer players are human, and many people world wide dislike America and see Canada as America but with actually cool people. Canada is also seen worldwide as very safe. I remember playing with a 28 year old in a rec league and he was lighting everyone up. He actually had played for teams in Yugoslavia and even had played on national teams for Serbia/Croatia or something. But Canada was safe and he wanted to protect his family. So he came here. He loved it here. 

I hate derailing the thread further, but seriously. Canada has some good stuff going on and I get really frustrated when I see Canadians shit all over it. Yes, we don't have the cachet of America, but literally no one in this world does. America's media is insanely pervasive. But just because we aren't America doesn't mean that we are meaningless, or that somehow Canadian things aren't great.

Sorry, I have to ask what that graph is. It's just labelled "percentage" and has countries listed. Based on the context of what you quoted, it must be the percentage of people around the world that are aware of those countries. I find it hard to believe that only 40 percent of people are aware of the US, less than 20 percent of people aware of China, and evidently about 5 percent of people not aware of any countries.

[Levi Oakey]

8 minutes ago, Kent said:

Sorry, I have to ask what that graph is. It's just labelled "percentage" and has countries listed. Based on the context of what you quoted, it must be the percentage of people around the world that are aware of those countries. I find it hard to believe that only 40 percent of people are aware of the US, less than 20 percent of people aware of China, and evidently about 5 percent of people not aware of any countries.

Sorry, I thought that the title would join it. The graph was from a worldwide poll that asked to rate countries on favourability, I'll see if I can find the link again, but if you give a search you should be able to find it.

EDIT: Found something better: http://www.gallup.com/poll/1624/perceptions-foreign-countries.aspx. The graph I had posted was from a report a few years ago. This one is up to date.
 

[Kent]

10 minutes ago, Levi Oakey said:

Sorry, I thought that the title would join it. The graph was from a worldwide poll that asked to rate countries on favourability, I'll see if I can find the link again, but if you give a search you should be able to find it.

EDIT: Found something better: http://www.gallup.com/poll/1624/perceptions-foreign-countries.aspx. The graph I had posted was from a report a few years ago. This one is up to date.
 

Thanks for following up. I can't find the original graph (didn't try terribly hard). That gallup poll is asking American's, not people around the world like Zen was pointing out.

Anyways, back on topic, I think when MLS and it's affiliates sign enough Canadian players that it becomes a problem for CPL, that is at least an indication that we have turned a corner in terms of youth development, assuming that doesn't drive people away from games in Winnipeg, Regina, Calgary, etc, and the CPL can survive.

[Levi Oakey]

Dang, sorry. Here is another example. Canada has basically switch roles back and forth with Sweden: https://www.reputationinstitute.com/research/Country-RepTrak.aspx

[zen]

2 hours ago, Levi Oakey said:

This is quantifiable, and it's not true.


The problem is you are comparing us to the country with the largest media presence in the whole world. Yes we are north of America and that leads to us naturally comparing ourselves but it isn't worthwhile, we are comparable to countries like Australia, France, even the UK. 

Why did the BBC report on the two Canadian teams competing. It wasn't Drogba, it was Canada. They have actually had stories on TFC before. Also that game was the most viewed in MLS history, even more than any MLS Cup. I love our country but we are so self-deprecating.

Drogba, Ciman, even Giovinco you will find actually wanted to move to Canada over America. There are a host of reasons why. You mention that Canada has a limit on it's growth based on the fact that people only think of us as a nice place to live or move it. But with a national league, that's exactly what you need. I think you will honestly see some players choose to play in the CPL over MLS. Maybe not the marquee of marquee, but if I am a young El Salvadoran, Honduran or Mexican, do you think America is my first choice right now? You have to remember, soccer players are human, and many people world wide dislike America and see Canada as America but with actually cool people. Canada is also seen worldwide as very safe. I remember playing with a 28 year old in a rec league and he was lighting everyone up. He actually had played for teams in Yugoslavia and even had played on national teams for Serbia/Croatia or something. But Canada was safe and he wanted to protect his family. So he came here. He loved it here. 

I hate derailing the thread further, but seriously. Canada has some good stuff going on and I get really frustrated when I see Canadians shit all over it. Yes, we don't have the cachet of America, but literally no one in this world does. America's media is insanely pervasive. But just because we aren't America doesn't mean that we are meaningless, or that somehow Canadian things aren't great.

Exactly, that's what I was doing. I'm not saying Canada is irrelevant, but when we are right beside the US so that's what we have to compete against, and it sucks that we are more often than not overshadowed by them. Also, if you look at what I was saying closer when I made the comment that people aren't aware of Canada I compared 2 cities. Professional teams represent cities, and the world needs to know about our cities and our teams, that's key. My concern is that with MLS right beside us, how can CPL compete with them globally to promote it's cities and teams given that MLS through America's soft-power has such a wide global reach.

Yes, I'm well aware TFC has been featured before in stories, all of them have been in regards to european players we were looking to sign. But that comment was meant to address the fact that Ansem was saying MLS had it wrong by going after older European DPs. I was just trying to show him that at MLS' stage right now, older European DPs get them the coverage they want.

Except for Ciman, those players chose Canada because of MLS, not because it's Canada. Ciman has a child that needs special care and as I said, Canada can provide those things to players. I have no doubt players would rather move to CPL than to play soccer in India or China, or even other Latin American countries because of the standard of living is better, but the money has to be in it too.

 

[Ansem]

My take:

Canadian kids

European opportunities trumps all. Then, MLS academies would be chosen by kids ahead of CPL academies but that would be mainly for the benefit of the current Canadian clubs. The 3 clubs would have first crack at finding that Canadian kid that could start like an Osorio, Johnson, Tiebert, Bernier etc... The rest would pretty much be in D3-USL limbo, transit back an forth like Hamilton when there's an injury or join the "Unattached FC" club. Sure some of them could be traded to American teams as they would be deemed "domestics" but that is very unlikely that an American based team will take a Canadian that can't start regularly.

So what about USL based US teams? 

I did a very interesting exercise, I did an quick overview of USL rosters of teams that aren't affiliated with the Canadian teams or Ottawa Fury. I could only count 15 Canadians with a spot on a USL team outside of Canadian Clubs. This announcement doesn't mean that Canadian kids will leave for the states for a crack at MLS via an American USL team. It also doesn't mean that USL teams would take Canadian kids ahead of American kids/international kids either. Unless you're a Larin or Akindele, it's even less likely that a Canadian kid will make MLS by going in a US based USL team/academy. Garber's announcement would have very little impact on the current situation outside of Canada.

Enters the CPL door for those who can't start regularly

I'd like to think that at a certain age, you can realistically assess your odds at making MLS as a starter or regular sub, same for those on the 3 Canadian clubs who barely see any minutes. If you look at MLS salary structure, DPs, internationals and regular starters gets the bulk of the money while the rest gets the lower end of the salary. (Starts at 50k) 

We have talented Canadian players in that situation who could start in MLS but have their spots taken and there's nothing in that Canadian solution that guarantees that US teams would stop discriminate against Canadians even if they were considered as "domestics". What's worst than salary, is limited playing time. You can't get better if you're not playing.

CPL becomes the better choice

USL player: If you're on a USL team and you're not a Larin, Akindele, Osorio, Bernier, Tiebert, Johnson (sadly 2 hands are enough to count how many Canadians starts in MLS), you're most likely getting loaned or transferred to CPL team if they want you. American teams will most likely keep picking an American player of similar talent despite being able to compete for a domestic spot.

If you're on a USL Canadian based team, your odds a slightly better at making the team but internationals will always get their spots and you're competing against every other Canadians for so little remaining spots.

Signing in CPL means you get paid better than USL (family, financial security), you play often at a level higher than USL which gives you the opportunity to grow and develop into a good player. If you become a dominant player, other leagues may scout you and give you opportunities.

MLS bench guys and/or transiting to USL and back : Having experienced first hand that all you'll get to do is warm up the bench and see very little playing time should make them seriously consider hitting free agency and pick CPL. For around similar pay, you get to play and develop...and perhaps as a late bloomer get opportunities elsewhere.

The kicker: If I read the Garber solution correctly, if you sign your first pro contract with MLS or USL team affiliate to MLS, you're getting domestic status...There's noting about losing it after going to another league. In theory, you should remain eligible for domestic status if someday you develop into a Larin in CPL and a team like Seattle wants to sign you.

Why is the CSA going along with this?

Because while it's not ideal, they understand that's probably the best they'll ever get. I feel that the CSA (Montagliani really) understood long ago that Canadians being domestics in MLS wouldn't necessarily stop American based teams from discriminating against Canadians outside of the 3 Canadian MLS teams, thus the push for CPL to expand the number of spots at a higher level. Also, CSA kind of made gains in other ways

1- Generation Adidas: a joint venture between Major League Soccer and U.S. Soccer aimed at raising the level of young professional soccer talent in the United States. The program, sponsored by Adidas, offers professional-ready players in the U.S. developmental system not yet eligible for the MLS SuperDraft early entry, allowing MLS to compete with foreign professional clubs without comparable restrictions on player signing. Originally intended to improve the U.S. national team player pool, American national team eligibility is no longer required for program entry.

Since then, the program has included players such as Tim Howard, DaMarcus Beasley, Maurice Edu, Carlos Bocanegra, Clint Dempsey, Jozy Altidore, Ben Olsen, Sacha Kljestan, Freddy Adu, Brad Guzan, Michael Bradley, Nick Rimando, and Kyle Beckerman.

Generation Adidas players do not count against the MLS senior roster and usually earn a much higher salary than the league minimum. Entering into the program automatically classifies a player as professional, and thus disqualifies them from playing college soccer. As a result, Generation Adidas players are also guaranteed scholarships to continue their college education should their professional career not pan out.

Now the program applies to Canadian academies (yet to be determined which ones)

2- MLS Academies at the service of CPL Teams: This is where I know Garber's solution was improvised and poorly thought, most likely more of a publicity stunt than anything else. What I've demonstrated above is that not much will change in the grand scheme of things, however, by making the domestic status so restrictive, he furthered BURDEN the MLS Academies.

With the domestic status lure, more kids will sign up. More MLS Academies will open across the country while CPL will most likely be opening their own as well. Since there's only a limited amount of spot available which MLS has promised not to increase by shutting down Canadian expansion, that's a lot of kid that will have beneficiated from those academies that will be CPL bound as our 3 Canadian clubs can only accommodate so many spots on the team.

In a nutshell, the very best homegrown Canadians will still play for a Canadian club in MLS, while the very good/good players will be CPL bound with MLS system academy training as a solid base. It would be a catastrophe if MLS aggressively expanded in Canada at the same time, which would mean that CPL would be left with the leftovers, however, by refusing to expand, more players will get better training thanks to more money being invested by Canadian MLS franchises but do to the lack of spots will sign with CPL in the end.

Oh Garber, didn't you realize that you just made life easier for CPL teams to get their hands on quality players who will have a solid foundation thanks to MLS academy paying for it? They'll literally be doing half the job while CPL will focus on CIS and D3.

I think that would explain Montagliani still being able to smirk at that thing.

 

[Trillium]

On 12/2/2016 at 0:55 AM, jpg75 said:

That same journalist said the league was launching this year or next. He said there would be a number of announcements that came and went without a peep. The league proposal is being ratified in the next couple of weeks and it's proposed it will be launched in 2018 with 6 teams. No offence but a lot can still happen in the next 16 months. Nothing is set in stone on this league. Therefore, until i see games being played and a payroll table released a la MLSPU i will consider that a lack of evidence and therefore any claims to the CPL salary structure to be not supported by evidence ie. unsubstantiated.

Well said jpg75, it is not real until on the field.

The MLS announcement on domestic status re players is a first volley by MLS to stop a north of the border league that competes with the single entity.

MLS involvement in sanctioning Canadian youth clubs allowed to produce MLS passport players is a second volley.

That an outgoing CSA president is doing this wearing a CONCACAF hat is worrying as It is clear MLS/SUM control USSF, and CONCACAF needs USSF to have CONCACAF tournaments in USA that fund CONCACAF operations.

SUM has Mexican national team to sell in USA, sells MLS and US national team, do we have a place at the table or has it been shopped cheap?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

A poster called Laszlo (?) came up with an interesting idea on another thread as to why the CSA would be willing to go along with the sanctioning of youth clubs with MLS. It finally gives them some leverage to enforce a universal set of standards at the provincial level. People tend to forget that the CSA doesn't really do that much beyond look after the national team programs, the sanctioning of pro leagues and cups, and the organization of end of season amateur level national championships. When it comes to control of youth soccer, the provincial associations are very much in the driver's seat.

On the SUM angle, the CSA had the possibility of aligning with Traffic Sports in direct competition with SUM until Sepp Blatter and Jack Warner fell from grace. Now it definitely does look like SUM rules the roost in CONCACAF terms, so the best that can probably be hoped for is a small slice of the action by hosting at least some Gold Cup and 2026 World Cup games as a minor joint-host. That naturally pushes the CSA towards cooperation with MLS rather than competition with it

[BearcatSA]

7 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Now it definitely does look like SUM rules the roost in CONCACAF terms, so the best that can probably be hoped for is a small slice of the action by hosting at least some Gold Cup and 2026 World Cup games as a minor joint-host. That naturally pushes the CSA towards cooperation with MLS rather than competition with it

I think getting to host more Gold Cup games is a possibility out of this scenario

[shermanator]

Here's a quote on from Mont Vic on who determines if a Canadian youth club meets approval for this change.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/12/30/qa-victor-montagliani-reflects-his-time-charge-canada-soccer

DS: Players who are part of either an MLS academy or an approved Canadian youth club are potentially covered by this rule change. Who determines which youth clubs meet this standard, and how will that be decided?

VM: It will be decided by the Canadian Soccer Association and our staff. We have a Director of Development, Jason deVos, and our director of high performance, Tony Fonseca. It’s our staff that will determine that [and will] present it to MLS, who obviously need to recognize what we’ve identified.

 

[Complete Homer]

 

2 minutes ago, shermanator said:

Here's a quote on from Mont Vic on who determines if a Canadian youth club meets approval for this change.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/12/30/qa-victor-montagliani-reflects-his-time-charge-canada-soccer

 

 

^ While I still think the rule is inadequate, this is a key difference from earlier reports that it was MLS that decided who met the standards. This is really good, not just to ensure that every deserving academy gets the designation, but as others have mentioned, it allows the CSA to push local associations to be better to get a fairly valuable designation. Maybe we'll actually see a D3 league emerge in BC

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The key remaining issue is players having to sign their first pro contract with an MLS club or its USL affiliate. If that bottleneck could be widened out a bit, it becomes a very positive development.

[Soccerpro]

37 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The key remaining issue is players having to sign their first pro contract with an MLS club or its USL affiliate. If that bottleneck could be widened out a bit, it becomes a very positive development.

I think this pushes some kids in the direction of a USL affiliate vs a regular USL club with no affiliation. There are more young kids signing for USL clubs these days.

[An Observer]

If the cpl becomes a league that you can sign with, than that will make a big difference as any player that comes up through that league will be able to be treated as a domestic in the MLS. I suspect that was agreed already otherwise the CSA wouldn't be so positive on this deal with the MLS. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Agree that's how it appears to be being spun, but that points to a heavy MLS involvement in "CPL" so that it can be argued convincingly that players moving there can be viewed as signing their first pro contract with an MLS affiliate.

[An Observer]

Not sure it points to any kind of MLS involvement in CPL.  It just points to the likely possibility that the CSA is happy with the deal as they know CPL academy sides would qualify as would first pro contracts there. Of course, I could be wrong but that is a much likelier scenario than any kind of heavy MLS involvement in the CPL as nothing that anyone has written that has quoted CSA as a source OR anyone closely tied to the league has pointed in the direction of any kind of significant involvement of the MLS in the CPL. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The key age on the academy angle for the MLS domestic eligibility is what happens in player development terms in the calendar year that players turn 16. Very few players would be on a pro contract at that age, so these players would lose their MLS domestic eligibility subsequent to that if they signed their first pro contract in "CPL" rather than with an MLS team or its USL affiliate. 

The deal that was announced is actually quite restrictive and would also leave players that sign their first pro contract with FC Edmonton out in the cold. FC Edmonton academy players only get to keep the domestic eligibility (if this academy setup is included) if they sign their first pro contract with an MLS or its USL affiliate rather than FC Edmonton.

[gator]

I think Vic really dropped the ball on this, there should be no debate, Canadians are domestics end of! 

[Mister215Guy]

This is why the 3 Canadian clubs need to leave MLS for the CPL. Only then they can develop domestic players properly when they're not subject to nonsensical MLS rules. Garber is just ass-kissing since the Canadian clubs are the only good parts of the league and he needs them for MLS to get any respect. 

[Kent]

On 30/12/2016 at 4:35 PM, Complete Homer said:

^ While I still think the rule is inadequate, this is a key difference from earlier reports that it was MLS that decided who met the standards. This is really good, not just to ensure that every deserving academy gets the designation, but as others have mentioned, it allows the CSA to push local associations to be better to get a fairly valuable designation. Maybe we'll actually see a D3 league emerge in BC

It's still not as clear as I would like, and I think we still have to wait and see what happens to a certain extent. The possibility still seems to exist that MLS will screw us over for non-MLS academies.

Vic: "It’s our staff that will determine that [and will] present it to MLS, who obviously need to recognize what we’ve identified." That to me sounds like MLS has veto power over which clubs are included. Hopefully that MLS approval is essentially a rubber stamp step, but it's possible that they will set their own standards for non-MLS clubs to be unreasonably high and we won't get any clubs that get that designation, or they will let Sigma get it and nobody else, etc.

However it pans out, I think its a positive move, not a harmful move. And of course it doesn't change a thing regarding the need for the CPL.

[Rheo]

MLS is an American league.  The fact they do anything to help Canadians is above and beyond the call of duty.  It's not their responsibility to grow Canadians.  The measure is small but does help Canadians but does it underscores the need for the CPL.

[Soccerpro]

I thought the domestic rule changes were extremely weak and inexcusable at the time they were announced.

Now, after seeing Reid and Shome being counted as Generation Adidas, I'm starting to think that while this whole situation isn't ideal, it's not bad at all...

[masster]

2 hours ago, Soccerpro said:

I thought the domestic rule changes were extremely weak and inexcusable at the time they were announced.

Now, after seeing Reid and Shome being counted as Generation Adidas, I'm starting to think that while this whole situation isn't ideal, it's not bad at all...

Lets wait and see. Are those 2 players going to be considered domestic on US teams? If not, will that hurt the possibility of them being drafted by US teams? If so, then I don't see it as any different than what we had before.

We have seen Canadians be Generation Adidas players before, both through the draft and through homegrown status (Larin and Teibert as examples). Just putting Canadian in the label doesn't really change anything.

[Yohan]

Canadian GA thing... it pretty much guarantees that a Canadian player gets a shot with a US team. It's better than nothing.

[dyslexic nam]

Just thinking about this, coloured by Trump's rabid advancement of all things US, and I started wondering if the GA pathway could be used as a mechanism to allow young uncapped Canadian prospects to become naturalized US citizens that they can tap for their national team.  Some 17 year old kid who shows a lot of pro potential could get GA status, a lot of developmental attention, and access to the US-based MLS teams as a domestic.  He gets snatched up by a competitive team, spends a couple of years training and playing with them, and just as he starts to get on the level required for a spot on the Nats, re realizes he only has [insert some minimal time/residency requirement] before being eligible for US citizenship.

It may be just the cynic in me, but given the potential for the recent MLS movement on the 'domestics' issue to undermine a potential CPL player pool, I am wondering if this too could be designed to advance US soccer interests.