How Can U12 & Younger Age Groups Be Reformed?

[Tuscan]

There's always a lot of talk about how we need to do something to give our older players a pathway to further develop their skills - namely providing a professional environment/league where they can play to get better. In my mind this has always sounded like putting the chicken before the egg, as, and this might sound harsh, I believe our players are already essentially ruined by the time they reach U14 and academy age (academy age in my experience has been around U14).

 

I believe that youth soccer from U12 down needs to be vastly reformed across the country. What I intend for this topic is to discuss what we think needs to be done to reform the way kids are brought through the game at these age levels, and then figure out how it can actually be done.

 

My first proposal, and this comes from experience of how soccer works within Saskatchewan, is control of all youth soccer from U12 and younger needs to be ripped from the control of city Community Associations and given only to either youth soccer associations or, better yet, youth academies.

 

There is only one academy in Saskatoon that does anything with kids younger than 12, called Astra Academy (http://www.astrasoccer.ca/). More organizations like this need to appear, and all the youth soccer associations/zones need to be reformed to operate more like this.

[ThatDaveCh]

A couple of ideas.

1: Certified coaching. Just like referees need to pass an exam following a course, so do youth coaches. No more parents volunteering to handle such an important task. Even if the kids are there to be just "Timbits" and get them out of the house, knowledge of the game is never lost. Those who do excel will climb on anyway.

2: Attitude change. There are parents who shell out thousands of dollars annually for their child to play competitive hockey, football, or tennis. Actually, it's still a lot of money, regardless of the level of competition. It's an accepted fact that of the nature of proper development, and the sport. Youth soccer, however, is still seen as a sport that should cost no more than $100 (with the exception of children who play "club" soccer). This needs to change. It's not just kicky ball, it's a game that's full of skill and an exercise of cognitive ability, and this needs to be understood.

[ThatDaveCh]

Sorry, accidental double post.

[Soccerpro]

There's always a lot of talk about how we need to do something to give our older players a pathway to further develop their skills - namely providing a professional environment/league where they can play to get better. In my mind this has always sounded like putting the chicken before the egg, as, and this might sound harsh, I believe our players are already essentially ruined by the time they reach U14 and academy age (academy age in my experience has been around U14).

 

I believe that youth soccer from U12 down needs to be vastly reformed across the country. What I intend for this topic is to discuss what we think needs to be done to reform the way kids are brought through the game at these age levels, and then figure out how it can actually be done.

 

My first proposal, and this comes from experience of how soccer works within Saskatchewan, is control of all youth soccer from U12 and younger needs to be ripped from the control of city Community Associations and given only to either youth soccer associations or, better yet, youth academies.

 

There is only one academy in Saskatoon that does anything with kids younger than 12, called Astra Academy (http://www.astrasoccer.ca/). More organizations like this need to appear, and all the youth soccer associations/zones need to be reformed to operate more like this.

We need a way to induce more academies, everywhere. SAAC in Ontario are doing it right. Community clubs don't have the desire to strive for excellence, and never will IMHO. A business owner can't afford to fail, there's no such thing as failure for a community club.

[Gordon]

Tuscan, ECA Europe has a document that examine some of the top youth academies in Europe that you might find useful/interesting Haven't looked at it for a while, but I am pretty sure at least one or two started at quite a young age.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I'm not close to youth soccer, but in BC it looks like the big clubs like Surrey United and Coquitlam Metro Ford have embraced the LTDP. Amongst the BC Premier League clubs there are some good coaches, many who have UEFA licenses. However, the technical directors are generally ex-Whitecaps who are getting certified in the Canadian system. I assumed CSA coaching certification is better than it used to be, but my sense is that we need a few more foreign trained coaches to help train our coaches who ultimately work at these clubs. I was hoping Floro would be involved in this process. I haven't heard anything one way or the other about his involvement in redeveloping the CSA licenses. You ultimately need qualified people to train the volunteers who will be overseeing the "fundamentals" and "learning to train" stages of the LTDP.

[difab]

A way to improve the U12 is obviously through coaching. To do this we need to have better trained coaches all the way down to the Timbits level. In the early stages kids can learn fundamentals, but this is often ignored, not the fault of the coaches who are well meaning, but their lack of experience in the game. Currently in Manitoba, no certifications are required for early age coaches, this would be a good starting point along with a national curriculum developed by the Canadian Soccer Association.

[ThiKu]

Training will improve for the u6-12 range by the following happening (but not limited to just these);

 

1. Coaching certification requirements (FYI - BCSA has announced this last month).

-Not sure how this can be enforced. Let's say a club like Surrey Central City has 5 "A" teams (which is not uncommon) at the youngest ages, but only has 2 certified coaches. Do they then only have 2 "A" teams and the other 3 have to play rec (thus stunting development)? I don't know how BCSA will handle these scenarios. Another example is even my club, which is a tiny club, often has 2-3 "A" teams but rarely has the appropriately certified coach. So Chilliwack (which has developed 2 Whitecaps residency players) players will now lose the competitive environment in which to develop? 

-I am pro certification requirements, just not sure how to enforce.

 

2. Training standardization. 

-I haven't done research but am told by a very qualified hockey coach there's a method to the madness in that all hockey coaches are given a guide as to what skills the kids should have by certain ages and online training guides on how to achieve that.

 

3. League structure

-Stop with these 1 day, 1 game practices. Go to jamborees for these ages. At u12 a kid should NEVER drive 1 hour, 1 way to play a 1 hour game in which they might play 20-30 minutes (some kids at some teams played less!). Play 2-3 games in 1 day, at a central location, against 2-3 different opponents. Scrap half-times etc. Go with short, 20 or 30 minute games. Do these jamborees twice per month with 3 training sessions per week.

 

4. Ref development

-DEVELOP THE DAMN REFS PLEASE!!!!!!! My word do some of them have a penchant for ruining the experience and leading to kids overall frustration and some surely quit as a result of this compounded frustration. (ps-please teach refs to hand out yellow cards. Kids need actual consequences. In the same way parents shouldn't negotiate with 3 year olds!)

 

5. Erase score keeping

-This is happening. Kids keep score themselves. Kids are naturally competitive. Erasing league tables will not stunt competitiveness, it will curtail overcompetitive coaches who literally use hockey as a style on how to play (dump and chase - not up the middle - down the wing - in the corner - rush the GK!)

 

6. Have short seasons.

-Put these kids in 12 month programs whereby they play for a a short period of time (1-3 months depending on weather, time of year) with short breaks (2-4 weeks depending on weather and time of year) between these short seasons. During the breaks clubs can assess where their players are at, move kids around teams as needed, change level of play for their teams as needed etc

 

7. Remove boundaries

-At the top two levels only. Third tier and lower (as you get nearer to rec soccer) should retain boundaries. Parents and players should have the right to go to a program they believe will work best for them (transfers can only happen during certain times of the year)

 

8. Allow academies to play with and amongst NFP community clubs

-Not sure where the push back is here. NFP's are .... NOT FOR PROFIT. They get nothing for developing players, and no one loses jobs. Allow private academies who should have highly trained coaches (ie, Total Soccer Systems) who are heavily invested in developing players so they do in fact keep their jobs and pay their mortgages. 

 

9. Change u13 and maybe even u14 to 9v9. 

-I would also suggest going to a goal that is 3/4 size - bigger than 8v8, smaller than 11v11 (but that's costly). Fields are not an issue. Simply move the goals to the top of the 18 yard box, using the full width of the field. Marking a 9v9 18 yard box would require some consideration (but certain clubs with no field issues could simply re-size existing 11v11 pitches and use them for these 2 age groups exclusively - and with almost every single school having a field this generally shouldn't be a huge issue anyway).

[Trillium]

Have one structure nationally eliminate all provincial bodies. So rules made about clubs,academies,league rules,coaching certification etc are uniform across Canada.

[Vic]

Not sure where the push back is here. NFP's are .... NOT FOR PROFIT. They get nothing for developing players, and no one loses jobs. Allow private academies who should have highly trained coaches (ie, Total Soccer Systems) who are heavily invested in developing players so they do in fact keep their jobs and pay their mortgages.

 

You could apply the same logic to PSO positions and Trillium's statement above.

[jpg75]

Under 12 is the least of our worries. What happens after 12 is the bigger problem.

[jpg75]

Alot of the solutions i'm seeing are all structure related when the biggest issue with young kids is a lack of unstructured play. Until kids are playing pick-up soccer as much as they are playing road hockey we won't be producing too many DeRo's. That solution comes from creating a soccer culture and promoting small sided "street soccer" or as we called it "foot hockey" to develop skills and scoring instinct.

[Ed_S]

I don't think many responding to this post have a sniff about youth soccer. The problems are many but asking for certification for all coaches is absolutely ridiculous. We have many poor coaches but it is not that they are taking positions AWAY from those more qualified. There are more coaches needed than we have qualified coaches to fill. Period.

Youth clubs are doing alright developing young players. We are on par with many Euro countries at the U12 level. It is beyond that age where we start to fail and IMHO is in large part down to a lack of identifiable Cdn soccer stars and soccer clubs. Too many amateurs running the elite level in this country as the pro game has not matured enough to trickle down.

If soccer had 10% of the cachet that major junior hockey had, we would be drooling over the players coming out at age 17-20. It is about players seeing their local idols go on to being pros, watching the teams they identify with live or on TV and dreaming of being there themselves.

It is slowly getting there. I know several 12-14 yr olds with realistic aspirations of playing pro - unfortunately at this stage in the game the European route is much more appropriate for them as the local/national options are still largely woeful.

[ThiKu]

Under 12 is the least of our worries. What happens after 12 is the bigger problem.

 

WRONG WRONG WRONG. 

 

Yes post 12 is a major problem outside of BC, QC, and ON (all have high level youth leagues), but the biggest problems are 6-12 and then 16+

[jpg75]

WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Yes post 12 is a major problem outside of BC, QC, and ON (all have high level youth leagues), but the biggest problems are 6-12 and then 16+

Sorry just can't see how that would be. At age 6 kids are barely able to carry out simple instructions and dribbling looks more like kicking the ball along. That is the main reason rep. streaming doesn't happen until age 8, when kids respond better to coaching. Then you factor in that most kids in Europe are also at local clubs prior to age 12 where they get non-professional coaching so our kids aren't losing pace. And lastly it's easier to teach the basic and intermediate skills like passing with inside of foot, trapping etc. if you're an underqualified rep. coach then it is to teach teens the intricacies of off the ball movement, counter-attacking with speed etc. As Ed mentioned and has been conveyed to me by other coaches, euro pro scouts and OSA staff coaches - our top 10-12 year olds are about level with their Euro counterparts. It's around 12-14 when they start to fall behind drastically due to poorer/non-pro coaching and training and playing with inferior teammates and competition. And the problem compounds the longer they go without a good environment.

[ThiKu]

jpg - I would like to introduce you to Mr. Tom Byers. Have you ever coached? You don't want to introduce skills-training until age 8? Oh dear. There's LOADS of ways to teach skills to kids age 3-4-5-6 and still make sure they are having hella fun. I can tell you having run a 10-12 yr boys group for 3 years the skill-sets were not present that were required to compete technically nor athletically because the kids were basically neglected age 6-10.

 

"Rep streaming" is not what I was referring to. And it's not needed until age 11-12 anyway.

 

Are we behind with our coaching age 12-14? YES. Are we failing our kids age 6-12? YES. Do we need to develop the training environment age 14-16? YES. Do we need to solve the age 16+ "where do they go now?" problem. YES!

 

I guess my point is you and I are both correct! 

[Tuscan]

I've seen some very interesting mini-debates going on in this topic, which is why I started it. I've always been under the impression that we basically hinder our kids right at the get-go by putting them through poor programs when they are 12 and younger, but it is very interesting to see how the lack of a top of the pyramid is probably hurting them more than anything. I've started to re-evaluate my stance on this as well, and do wonder if the top of the pyramid is where our resources need to be allocated first before focusing on the youngins. I guess the question comes down to: what good is youth development if there is never anywhere for them to refine their skills once they've matured past puberty?

 

I do still think we need to standardize things better across the country when it comes to programming at these super young ages, but I suppose that only matters if we can provide the other tools of development such as local professional idols, soccer culture (playing in the street and at parks), and other things.

 

Interesting idea for a project - creating a Soccer In The Park program that is free for kids to just show up and take part in, city-wide, sponsored by whoever to cover 100% of costs, and marketed to try and get kids out there. Very rough idea, but could provide that "street soccer" type idea that is definitely lacking here.

[The Ref]

I've seen some very interesting mini-debates going on in this topic, which is why I started it. I've always been under the impression that we basically hinder our kids right at the get-go by putting them through poor programs when they are 12 and younger, but it is very interesting to see how the lack of a top of the pyramid is probably hurting them more than anything. I've started to re-evaluate my stance on this as well, and do wonder if the top of the pyramid is where our resources need to be allocated first before focusing on the youngins. I guess the question comes down to: what good is youth development if there is never anywhere for them to refine their skills once they've matured past puberty?

 

I do still think we need to standardize things better across the country when it comes to programming at these super young ages, but I suppose that only matters if we can provide the other tools of development such as local professional idols, soccer culture (playing in the street and at parks), and other things.

 

Interesting idea for a project - creating a Soccer In The Park program that is free for kids to just show up and take part in, city-wide, sponsored by whoever to cover 100% of costs, and marketed to try and get kids out there. Very rough idea, but could provide that "street soccer" type idea that is definitely lacking here.

I agree with what you say.  Everywhere else soccer is a career and well paid except in Canada.  Hence the need for pro leagues with lots of teams and throw in some more large stadiums to boot.  How often do you hear Canadian parents wishing their kids to be soccer players?  I've never heard it.  Us parents wish for our kids to be lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc. regardless the soccer talent of our kids.

 

I like as well the idea of soccer in the park, an open program for kids, boys and girls to play pick-up games.  What I have always maintain is that we need less structure not more structure. 

[jpg75]

jpg - I would like to introduce you to Mr. Tom Byers. Have you ever coached? You don't want to introduce skills-training until age 8? Oh dear. There's LOADS of ways to teach skills to kids age 3-4-5-6 and still make sure they are having hella fun. I can tell you having run a 10-12 yr boys group for 3 years the skill-sets were not present that were required to compete technically nor athletically because the kids were basically neglected age 6-10.

 

"Rep streaming" is not what I was referring to. And it's not needed until age 11-12 anyway.

 

Are we behind with our coaching age 12-14? YES. Are we failing our kids age 6-12? YES. Do we need to develop the training environment age 14-16? YES. Do we need to solve the age 16+ "where do they go now?" problem. YES!

 

I guess my point is you and I are both correct! 

I agree, we are both correct in that we are arguing different things. You are right that our youth system is far from perfect and that we could be doing more in developing kids, but despite that truth we are not behind most European nations because youth development in most places is a bit of a hodge-podge. It takes massive organization and financial investment to do what the Germans are doing (identifying top talent at a very young age and having them meet pro coaches on a semi-regular basis).

[jpg75]

Something i was thinking about the other day - the MLS clubs are mandated to have academies at the U16 and U18 age groups but nothing else. You have the Whitecaps and TFC who have decided to have teams as young 12 and 13 with about 25-30 kids each, but is that really enough? I was thinking the CSA should mandate each club to have U12/13/14 programs with a minimum of 50 kids (or more) and force them to create a mini-league for the elite prospects to better develop and scout them. OPDL doesn't start until U14 so there shouldn't be much blowback on this.

[Tuscan]

Something i was thinking about the other day - the MLS clubs are mandated to have academies at the U16 and U18 age groups but nothing else. You have the Whitecaps and TFC who have decided to have teams as young 12 and 13 with about 25-30 kids each, but is that really enough? I was thinking the CSA should mandate each club to have U12/13/14 programs with a minimum of 50 kids (or more) and force them to create a mini-league for the elite prospects to better develop and scout them. OPDL doesn't start until U14 so there shouldn't be much blowback on this.

 

Interesting concept. It would be a great way for them to identify the kids who could go on to be the 20-30 they invest more heavily in. We're really asking a lot of the clubs if they do this, can't be cheap to run a youth league.

[jpg75]

Interesting concept. It would be a great way for them to identify the kids who could go on to be the 20-30 they invest more heavily in. We're really asking a lot of the clubs if they do this, can't be cheap to run a youth league.

Double the kids and probably less than double the staff, shouldn't be that expensive. Make it an informal league of 4 teams with each coach drafting from the pool of kids that have been chosen to join the academy. I mean, we allow them to have only 3 Canadians on their 30 man rosters, this shouldn't be too much to ask for - and it is in their best interest to cast a wide enough net so they don't miss anybody.

[Ed_S]

I agree with what you say.  Everywhere else soccer is a career and well paid except in Canada.  Hence the need for pro leagues with lots of teams and throw in some more large stadiums to boot.  How often do you hear Canadian parents wishing their kids to be soccer players?  I've never heard it.  Us parents wish for our kids to be lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc. regardless the soccer talent of our kids.

 

I like as well the idea of soccer in the park, an open program for kids, boys and girls to play pick-up games.  What I have always maintain is that we need less structure not more structure. 

I know a number of kids whose parents want them to be soccer players. Mind you, I meet a hell of a lot of soccer parents. The free play, less structure model sounds good but doesn't work too well with today's kids whose lives are organized from sun up to sun down.

 

BTW, this is 'Ed' with a new login. Never could get my username recognized after the forum switch.