National Allegiance

[RamR]

In the wake of yet another "Canadian" looking to represent another country in international sports I have begun to wonder if the issue is even bigger than it seems.  When JDG2 and Begovic made their first starts in the World Cup I was saddened by the positive comments made toward them not only from commentators but also several of our own national team players... players who in my mind should be well and truly pissed off that these guys have cost them some international success as well.  It seems like there are similar sentiment from other "Canadians" with regard to the recent news of Bustos.

 

So, what I am wondering is, how many players are there that are honestly loyal to Canada?  How many players would choose to play for Canada even if they had other more attractive national options?  For example, how many of our players would have actually turned down the Dutch if they had been in JDG2's shoes?  

 

The thought of this is truly depressing and makes me feel a little bit sick but it might be worthwhile considering before a solution is sought.  Surely it is essential that the root of the problem be addressed in order to effectively fix it.  Or, is it impossible to fix?  Has international football become nothing more than a mercenary exercise where players are almost all out to make their international representation the most beneficial to their professional career as possible?

 

If we extend this beyond Canada, how many players around the world have demonstrated true loyalty and national pride in the face of better options being available?  Ryan Giggs?  Was England even a real option for him?  To be honest I can't think of too many.  Even the US players with the option to represent Germany seem to have chosen the US as much due to limited opportunity to represent Germany as anything else.

[madmonte]

I agree.  We are Voyageurs.  Who else would support Canadian soccer but very nationalistic Canadians.  We have our ideals of nationalism, and being Voyageurs, we are probably more likely to be nationalistic than the average Canadian.

 

We find it difficult, then, to understand those people who are not of the same mindset.  It angers us.  Saddens us.  Depresses us. 

 

I fully believe we are in the right on this, that players who are Canadian should love their country that raised that, and represent Canada.

 

It's also why I'm one of the Voyageurs that speaks out against being SO open to naturalizing players, because I feel that it would be then hypocritical to BE critical (wordplay) of players that choose to not represent Canada, whether they are good enough for their home country or not.  That said, it's a touchy issue, that isn't white and black.  Some players move to Canada at, say, the age of 12.  Some at 14.  Is there a line?  Where do you draw it?  

 

I don't believe you CAN draw a line, I only believe that everyone has their own feelings on the subject, and that it can be a very TOUCHY subject.

 

But then nationalism, worldwide, can be a touchy subject.  For Voyageurs, who are nationalistic, we feel betrayed.  Are we in the right, always?  That is the heart of the discussion that RamR is bringing to the table here.

 

90% of the people that respond in kind to this thread will be of a mind against the players like Sam Adekugbe that condoned Bustos' decision, as he tweeted that it was great for Bustos, as these opportunites come along, he should seize them.  Are you next Sam, if England were to knock on the door?  For those that hadn't heard about Sam's tweet, just reading that he was supportive probably angers them.

But it doesn't anger Sam.  It doesn't anger a LOT of Caps fans.  It doesn't anger them that they rarely field Canadians either.  

 

Can we, as Voyageurs, understand THEIR mindset?  And if we can't even understand them, how do we convince them of our way of thinking?  What a muddle.

[Red and White]

So, what I am wondering is, how many players are there that are honestly loyal to Canada?  How many players would choose to play for Canada even if they had other more attractive national options?  For example, how many of our players would have actually turned down the Dutch if they had been in JDG2's shoes?

 

My response to this is to really get behind players who, through their actions, clearly give unwavering support to our national team. This is why I have lots of respect for guys like DeRo, Hutchinson, Julian de Guzman and so forth, who know how to 'choose' their national side and give it their all while doing so.

 

The cold truth is, we have to improve as a nation before the selfish players consider us. As supporters, we can improve the atmosphere off-the-pitch. That draws new fans who continually improve our supporters sections and make it more enticing for players to choose us.

 

On the field, its difficult not to place blame on the CSA. Our national side has continually been mismanaged in terms of player development, and we've always lacked home games, which is a direct way of attracting new fans. When players see how amateur the CSA is, its not exactly inviting to play for us. The selfish ones leave.

 

Luckily, our current youth players seem to be promising, and the CSA genuinely looks like its trying to reform. Improvement won't happen overnight, but all it takes is a decent generation of players who create an initial spark which hopefully leads to more.

[RamR]

My response to this is to really get behind players who, through their actions, clearly give unwavering support to our national team. This is why I have lots of respect for guys like DeRo, Hutchinson, Julian de Guzman and so forth, who know how to 'choose' their national side and give it their all while doing so.

 

The cold truth is, we have to improve as a nation before the selfish players consider us. As supporters, we can improve the atmosphere off-the-pitch. That draws new fans who continually improve our supporters sections and make it more enticing for players to choose us.

 

On the field, its difficult not to place blame on the CSA. Our national side has continually been mismanaged in terms of player development, and we've always lacked home games, which is a direct way of attracting new fans. When players see how amateur the CSA is, its not exactly inviting to play for us. The selfish ones leave.

 

Luckily, our current youth players seem to be promising, and the CSA genuinely looks like its trying to reform. Improvement won't happen overnight, but all it takes is a decent generation of players who create an initial spark which hopefully leads to more.

 

I agree with most of what you and madmonte have written but it is only recently that I have begun to even wonder about your first paragraph.  I have seen comments on twitter by players who I would have put in the class of "knowing how to 'choose' their national side" but now I'm not so sure that they would have even chosen Canada had they had better options.  For sure there are plenty of players who give it their all and are truly dedicated to the national team but is it only after they were 'forced' to represent Canada due to having no better options available?  I hate being so cynical and jaded but it's just something that has crept into my conscience.  

 

At the same time I think if we could have one of these situations go our way, especially with a high level player who had better options with another nation, it would do wonders going forward.  For example, if Keven Aleman becomes high quality and if in fact he chose Canada out of loyalty and dedication it would be great. It would be easy to see him (or any other player in the same position) becoming a poster boy for the national team if this ever happened.  Basically we need someone in the position to make a choice to follow through on the words that were spoken by Begovic when he said he owed it to Canada to represent this country.

[Joe MacCarthy]

If we extend this beyond Canada, how many players around the world have demonstrated true loyalty and national pride in the face of better options being available?

The Georges, Weah and Best (I may sit corrected) likely had other options, and none of the so called "Canadian" mercenaries can hold a candle to those guys.

[Blackdude]

I'm born and raised here. When I was a kid playing soccer, I wanted to play for Haiti, not Canada. I'm the first generation player born here. Both my parents lived there and moved here when they were in their teenage years.It's just how I felt as my best friends were Haitians-Canadians and of course that's how I felt. I can see what it's all about, and we can't do anything. I knew kompa music more than Celine Dion. That's one thing in Canada that first and second generation Canadians are proud of: our roots. We are thankful for Canada for letting us keep our roots.I just wonder how many of you would have a choice to play for another national team? It is what it is, and it's the way our country is. Proud immigrants still proud off where they came from and I don't think you will be able to change it. That's the bottom line. And I'm sure that people like me who are born to immigrant parents will say that they wanted to play for another national team. 

 

I think an article like this is what we're dealing with. 

 

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20120527/sports/sports9.html

[Keegan]

I'm born and raised here. When I was a kid playing soccer, I wanted to play for Haiti, not Canada. I'm the first generation player born here. Both my parents lived there and moved here when they were in their teenage years.It's just how I felt as my best friends were Haitians-Canadians and of course that's how I felt. I can see what it's all about, and we can't do anything. I knew kompa music more than Celine Dion. That's one thing in Canada that first and second generation Canadians are proud of: our roots. We are thankful for Canada for letting us keep our roots.I just wonder how many of you would have a choice to play for another national team? It is what it is, and it's the way our country is. Proud immigrants still proud off where they came from and I don't think you will be able to change it. That's the bottom line. And I'm sure that people like me who are born to immigrant parents will say that they wanted to play for another national team. 

 

I think an article like this is what we're dealing with. 

 

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20120527/sports/sports9.html

 

What about if you were a track star?  Would you have wanted to represent Haiti?  Sincere question.  Do you think part of it was also to due with the fact that living in Quebec you weren't exposed to Canada, specifically the MNT as much?

 

Russian-Canadians are proud of their roots but I really doubt a hockey player with Russian roots would ever play for Russia if Canada was an option.  I think the bottom line is that WE as a country need to make our MNT more popular for young kids to look up to.  Winning helps yes and we rely on the players for that but to a large extent it is us in the stands that will drive support moving forward along with the corporate sponsons who will jump on due to that passion.  Young kids see that and suddenly they'll never dream of representing another nation but Canada because they want that glory in front of those fans. That is how we change the trend because seemingly almost any player will jump who can and we're hard pressed to progress with that trend. 

 

Last WCQ was amazing with the support.  Now imagine we double it for 2018 qualifying.  I think a young kid seeing that on TV along with a former Real Madrid manager on the touchline will push them to be a Canada fan, and thus dream of playing for Canada.  Bustos probably never watched Canada growing up.

 

Bottom line.  Make the kids fans.  Do you know who was a fan of the CMNT?  Simeon Jackson.  Jackson could have played for Jamaica but he waited for Canadian citizenship to suit up for us.  So there is that example everyone is looking for.

[Blackdude]

What about if you were a track star?  Would you have wanted to represent Haiti?  Sincere question.  Do you think part of it was also to due with the fact that living in Quebec you weren't exposed to Canada, specifically the MNT as much?

 

 

If I was a track star, it would have been probably different because of a guy like Bruny Surin, an athlete that Haitian-Canadians call him as one of us. Because you felt that Surin was representing Haiti at teh same time. You see how the diaspora is about cheering on players like Altidore and Beausejour at the World Cup, and they are proud that those kids who have Haitian roots made it to the show. I do think that those players are different than ours because they didn't live in Haiti and it's not like they betrayed Haiti. 

 

I just think that it's what I was thought when I was a kid. I felt like I was an Haitian living in Canada, I don't think it has anything to do with Quebec, it's more having something to do with Haiti. Parents may have a lot in the decision and I'm sure that by keeping their country in the mind of the kid, that the kid learns a lot from his parents. I couldn't tell you a CanMNT player unless he was playing for the Impact.

[Fullback]

I agree.  We are Voyageurs.  Who else would support Canadian soccer but very nationalistic Canadians.  We have our ideals of nationalism, and being Voyageurs, we are probably more likely to be nationalistic than the average Canadian.

 

We find it difficult, then, to understand those people who are not of the same mindset.  It angers us.  Saddens us.  Depresses us. 

 

I fully believe we are in the right on this, that players who are Canadian should love their country that raised that, and represent Canada.

 

It's also why I'm one of the Voyageurs that speaks out against being SO open to naturalizing players, because I feel that it would be then hypocritical to BE critical (wordplay) of players that choose to not represent Canada, whether they are good enough for their home country or not.  That said, it's a touchy issue, that isn't white and black.  Some players move to Canada at, say, the age of 12.  Some at 14.  Is there a line?  Where do you draw it?  

 

I don't believe you CAN draw a line, I only believe that everyone has their own feelings on the subject, and that it can be a very TOUCHY subject.

 

But then nationalism, worldwide, can be a touchy subject.  For Voyageurs, who are nationalistic, we feel betrayed.  Are we in the right, always?  That is the heart of the discussion that RamR is bringing to the table here.

 

90% of the people that respond in kind to this thread will be of a mind against the players like Sam Adekugbe that condoned Bustos' decision, as he tweeted that it was great for Bustos, as these opportunites come along, he should seize them.  Are you next Sam, if England were to knock on the door?  For those that hadn't heard about Sam's tweet, just reading that he was supportive probably angers them.

But it doesn't anger Sam.  It doesn't anger a LOT of Caps fans.  It doesn't anger them that they rarely field Canadians either.  

 

Can we, as Voyageurs, understand THEIR mindset?  And if we can't even understand them, how do we convince them of our way of thinking?  What a muddle.

I understand being against nationalization but if a few players can help us get to the world cup we can avoid situations like this Bustos one in the future.

[RamR]

Here's another one.  This sort of thing bothers me almost as much as the players who make the poor choice themselves.

 

https://twitter.com/Humey_7/status/485556429680812032

[1zzurri]

This is obviously a touchy subject. I am a second generation Italian and I have always followed Canada and Italy growing up but more Italy for various reasons (Easier access to games which is another story all together, more success, a focal point of the italian community here in toronto, I grew up italian in many ways-food, style of soccer, going there every couple years, watching serie a , going there to see games live etc, etc) and I have always dreamed on putting on the italian jersey (canada's as well). Buuuuuut, I could never do that knowing that I was born and raised here and grew up playing the canadian soccer system and have this country to thank for who I am as a person. Unlike many people who only  root for the country of their parents or grandparents, I have always followed team Canada through thick and thin (lots of thin), watched all the games on tv or in person and just lately I have painted my fair share of banners. Even though there would be lots of pressure and plenty of temptations to play for Italy, I could never in my right mind do it unless Canada rejected me on multiple occasions. Having said this-----I have a dream: Russia 2018!! See everyone in September.

[RamR]

This is obviously a touchy subject. I am a second generation Italian and I have always followed Canada and Italy growing up but more Italy for various reasons (Easier access to games which is another story all together, more success, a focal point of the italian community here in toronto, I grew up italian in many ways-food, style of soccer, going there every couple years, watching serie a , going there to see games live etc, etc) and I have always dreamed on putting on the italian jersey (canada's as well). Buuuuuut, I could never do that knowing that I was born and raised here and grew up playing the canadian soccer system and have this country to thank for who I am as a person. Unlike many people who only  root for the country of their parents or grandparents, I have always followed team Canada through thick and thin (lots of thin), watched all the games on tv or in person and just lately I have painted my fair share of banners. Even though there would be lots of pressure and plenty of temptations to play for Italy, I could never in my right mind do it unless Canada rejected me on multiple occasions. Having said this-----I have a dream: Russia 2018!! See everyone in September.

 

I think this is the attitude a lot of us Canadian national team supporters want to see from everyone in the same position.  It kind of renews my faith to read it, even if it's from an anonymous poster on a forum.  Thanks for posting.

 

I'm tired of cheering against the Dutch and all that negative energy just because I hate the thought of how a World Cup victory for JDG2 could influence other young players with a choice.

[DigzTFC]

My solution is simple.  Take away citizenship and the Canadian passport if a player chooses another country.  But of course this would never happen.

 

There really isn't any downside for Bustos at the moment.  If he makes the Chile U20 and gets noticed at a tournament he might get a nice contract somewhere.  The Whitecaps get the transfer fee and kid gets to a higher level.  If he goes into a the Chile camp and doesn't cut it, he comes back into the Canadian fold with open arms and players still appreciate what he's accomplished.

 

It is what is it is.  We need far more player production through our development system.  This is going to happen again and again.  It would hurt less if there were 10 Bustos type players rather than 1.

[Guest ClaytonA]

This is definitely something that is personal.  From the perspective of someone living "out west" I'm aware of several people I know with the "10 year plan" to make some money and move back home to Ottawa, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia.  There definitely are many people who feel the equivalent to a Haitian (or something else other than local) living in Canada, or the west, or north.  Sometimes people don't get involved in their communitities however they define them, or choose between them.

 

This brings to mind travelling to the ancestral country and realizing you're not really Chinese-Chinese (for example), you're louder, you've had different opportunities - you stand out since you have different expectations, different beliefs, different values, and it's challenging to defer to an elder cousin just because they are older.  These kinds of moments, or even alienation if you cannot resolve it, are definitely part of the Canadian story.  Another example in soccer is Christina Stalteri's "The Great Canadian Soccer Story."

 

http://the11.ca/2013/06/05/the-great-canadian-soccer-story-christina-stalteri/

[Lord Bob]

There really isn't any downside for Bustos at the moment.  If he makes the Chile U20 and gets noticed at a tournament he might get a nice contract somewhere.  The Whitecaps get the transfer fee and kid gets to a higher level.  If he goes into a the Chile camp and doesn't cut it, he comes back into the Canadian fold with open arms and players still appreciate what he's accomplished.

VERY minor note: I don't believe the Whitecaps would get a transfer fee if Bustos signed elsewhere. They might get some money for developing him but there'd be no real negotiation; the Whitecaps don't really "own" him. Thanks to MLS's structure, the academies sort of aren't real in international terms. Think about Aleman leaving TFC Academy.

[ray]

 

I'm tired of cheering against the Dutch and all that negative energy just because I hate the thought of how a World Cup victory for JDG2 could influence other young players with a choice.

 

Oh, you were doing that too, huh?

[Sam]

This is a tough subject and I think we often make it seem simpler and more clear cut than it is on this forum.

 

Take JDG2 for example. He's lived in the Netherlands since he was 12, honestly what's to say he doesn't feel more Dutch than Canadian. As someone who has never met the guy before I certainly am in no position to say "you were born here you have to play here". To me that is bordering along the line of excessive nationalism which has some really negative connotations. However, it's the jerking us around as supporters and a national team that gets to me. After already committing to the Netherlands taking a fair weather approach of "Oh I'll play for Canada if you beat Honduras". And guys like Bustos playing the field until they chose from the various options presented to them. Bustos might well feel more Chilean and feel better about representing Chile and I say all the power to him if that's the case, but what I'm not okay with is him using Sport Canada funding from Canadian tax payers and him playing for Canadian youth teams just to further his career etc. 

 

One of the things I love about Canada is you can come here from pretty much anywhere in the world and keep your cultural roots and maintain a sense of loyalty to your country of origin. Where I draw that line is when players come here and treat our national team and our youth programs as a stepping stone to move onto bigger things essentially just wasting money and resources that are being put to develop CANADIAN soccer. 

 

So I'm not gonna tell anyone what country they should play for or dictate where they should feel allegiance, all I'm saying is be honest about it. Don't jerk us around, we've been through enough as Canadian supporters. 

[Bully]

The only way this problem is solved is if Canada qualifies for a WC.. kids see Canadians on TV and identify themselves with the boys in red instead of selfish weasels like JDG2

[Lord Bob]

However, it's the jerking us around as supporters and a national team that gets to me. After already committing to the Netherlands taking a fair weather approach of "Oh I'll play for Canada if you beat Honduras".

Which, it can never be sufficiently pointed out, JDG2 never actually said.

[Sam]

Which, it can never be sufficiently pointed out, JDG2 never actually said.

 

JDG hinted at it....

[finchster]

JDG hinted at it....

Even if he hinted at it, it was impossible for him to play for Canada.

[Sam]

Even if he hinted at it, it was impossible for him to play for Canada

 

At the time it wasn't. He hadn't been cap-tied for the Dutch yet.

[tmcmurph]

My solution is simple.  Take away citizenship and the Canadian passport if a player chooses another country.  But of course this would never happen.

 

There really isn't any downside for Bustos at the moment.  If he makes the Chile U20 and gets noticed at a tournament he might get a nice contract somewhere.  The Whitecaps get the transfer fee and kid gets to a higher level.  If he goes into a the Chile camp and doesn't cut it, he comes back into the Canadian fold with open arms and players still appreciate what he's accomplished.

 

It is what is it is.  We need far more player production through our development system.  This is going to happen again and again.  It would hurt less if there were 10 Bustos type players rather than 1.

 

There is something the CSA can do. Before he goes to the Chile U20 camp publicly tell him "if you go you are out of the program here". Seeing as Bustos is born, raised, developed in Canada and has taken $11k to help his development it is completely fair for the CSA to say it.

 

Yes we might lose him. He might never make Chile or Italy and he could leave himself with zero international options. Regardless how good a player is for a club and how much potential they have it needs to be pointed out to them in no uncertain terms that they are not the only one with options. Every decission has consequences and the players/parents need to have this pointed out to them.

 

We are not a doormat and need to stop behaving so desparate. Yes it will probably mean short term loses but everyone in the program will get the message.

 

At this point we have already lost so many that what is another one? Give him the choice and if he goes to the Chile U20 cut him lose.

[finchster]

At the time it wasn't. He hadn't been cap-tied for the Dutch yet.

Holland doesn't allow dual citizenship for naturalized citizens, they only allow dual citizenship based on right of birth (De Jong for Canada is an example). In order for De Guzman to obtain Dutch citizenship he needed to renounce his Canadian citizenship. De Guzman wasn't/isn't a citizen of Canada, therefore he was/is ineligible to represent Canada. People forget the FIFA rules are citizenship in addition to the other rules (birthplace, parents, grandparents etc). I heard all the interviews, De Guzman stated numerous times he needed to get his "Canadian passport' back, often "Passport" is used as a synonym for citizenship and he also stated he was trying to figure it out how it wouldn't affect his Dutch passport/citizenship. If a naturalized Dutch citizen takes the citizenship of another nation, they automatically lose their Dutch citizenship. Not to mention, getting his citizenship back isn't as easy as just applying for it, but I suppose rules could be waived. 

 

 There was almost no chance De Guzman playing for Canada. 

[Cheeta]

There is something the CSA can do.

...

 

We are not a doormat and need to stop behaving so desparate. Yes it will probably mean short term loses but everyone in the program will get the message.

 

At this point we have already lost so many that what is another one? Give him the choice and if he goes to the Chile U20 cut him lose.

 

Well, you have to start somewhere.  But if I've learned anything over the years it is if your going to confront somebody to always assume the worst is going to happen and if you're willing to live with that then stay calm, carry on and never, ever, bluff.

 

"You in or you out?".

 

Can just imagine how that question would be received if the CSA rang them up.  But it is what it is.

 

If you're out.  You're out.  Shake hands, wish each other luck and move on.  But how long do you black-list a player for if they are EVER interested in re-joining the program because that's what you're proposing.  

 

A qualifying cycle?  Can't be too long, players careers are short but it can't be too short either otherwise your ultimatum is hollow.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm with you.  Looooong overdue reaction from the CSA.  Ethnic outrage be damned.  Certain people may feel its quite right for them to separate their Canadian identity from their footballing identity but its also quite right that the Canadian Soccer Association and its properties do not.

 

By properties I mean the teams, and players, sent to FIFA tourneys and the Olympics.  

 

Life sucks.  Wear a helmet.