El Hombre Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 With all due respect we need guys better than the equivalent of Ledgerwood starting at RB. Right, but what he's trying to say (over and over again) is that we have to start somewhere. Players just need a chance. Osorio was given a chance and now some posters have penciled him in as a starter for next WCQ. Keegan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 With all due respect we need guys better than the equivalent of Ledgerwood starting at RB. You are correct, but unfortunately, we don't have anyone better than Ledgerwood to start at right back unless we play Atiba there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Right, but what he's trying to say (over and over again) is that we have to start somewhere. Players just need a chance. Osorio was given a chance and now some posters have penciled him in as a starter for next WCQ. Osorio is a perfect example. Like who would have ever thought that he would go from relative obscurity in 2012 to one of the best young midfielders in MLS? TFC took a chance on Osorio and he made the most of his opportunity. How many others are there like him out there? Clint Irwin is an example though he is American. I don't really have an answer as to why we haven't dipped back into the CSL/L1O pool since.. is it because of the management being more familiar with US colleges or just getting word from friends (who as they are American will obviously recommend American players). It's all hype and exposure.. if you're the only club scouting CSL/L1O players you're going to second guess yourself and maybe question the ability of the players if other MLS teams aren't there as well. It takes balls to separate from the pack. How many MLS teams wanted Bekker? A ton because he starred in NCAA (even before his combine).. how many wanted Osorio? Most likely only Toronto (roster rules aside, from a pure interest perspective). Now who is the better player? Osorio is and he's 2 years younger as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmonte Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Osorio is a perfect example. Like who would have ever thought that he would go from relative obscurity in 2012 to one of the best young midfielders in MLS? TFC took a chance on Osorio and he made the most of his opportunity. How many others are there like him out there? Clint Irwin is an example though he is American. I don't really have an answer as to why we haven't dipped back into the CSL/L1O pool since.. is it because of the management being more familiar with US colleges or just getting word from friends (who as they are American will obviously recommend American players). It's all hype and exposure.. if you're the only club scouting CSL/L1O players you're going to second guess yourself and maybe question the ability of the players if other MLS teams aren't there as well. It takes balls to separate from the pack. How many MLS teams wanted Bekker? A ton because he starred in NCAA (even before his combine).. how many wanted Osorio? Most likely only Toronto (roster rules aside, from a pure interest perspective). Now who is the better player? Osorio is and he's 2 years younger as well. And you just hit on the major reason why it's good to have multiple MLS and NASL teams, especially given the opportunity for that CFL partnership. More opportunities for players means less chances for players to slip through the cracks. THAT is what has been missing, and less players already are slipping through, than say 15 years ago, so it's coming along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearcatSA Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) The one big theme I get and support out of this discussion is the need for younger Canadian players (say, U23) is for them to get the pro minutes, somewhere. Some earn their chances in MLS, like Osorio and Henry have done, but others have to earn their opportunities elsewhere at pro level. The big difference I see now than in the league's earlier years is the beginnings of a better farm system for such development, be it through loan arrangements in USL or creating a direct farm affiliate (like Vancouver plans to do). You catch the late "bloom"ers better: even American Mark Bloom has been able to parlay an earlier playing career in USL Pro and USL into his current gig. (edit: madmonte, you've said something similar and beat me to my point. Kudos) Edited July 25, 2014 by BearcatSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VWFC Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Osorio is a perfect example. Like who would have ever thought that he would go from relative obscurity in 2012 to one of the best young midfielders in MLS? TFC took a chance on Osorio and he made the most of his opportunity. How many others are there like him out there? Clint Irwin is an example though he is American. I don't really have an answer as to why we haven't dipped back into the CSL/L1O pool since.. is it because of the management being more familiar with US colleges or just getting word from friends (who as they are American will obviously recommend American players). It's all hype and exposure.. if you're the only club scouting CSL/L1O players you're going to second guess yourself and maybe question the ability of the players if other MLS teams aren't there as well. It takes balls to separate from the pack. How many MLS teams wanted Bekker? A ton because he starred in NCAA (even before his combine).. how many wanted Osorio? Most likely only Toronto (roster rules aside, from a pure interest perspective). Now who is the better player? Osorio is and he's 2 years younger as well. Could it be that Osorio is a one off, a diamond in the rough, a needle in the haystack, rather than the conspiracy against Canadians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Could it be that Osorio is a one off, a diamond in the rough, a needle in the haystack, rather than the conspiracy against Canadians? If we are talking about young Canadians who were given a chance who showed that they belong, I think the list is longer: Teibert Henry Akindele It would be nice to add to that list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearcatSA Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 If we are talking about young Canadians who were given a chance who showed that they belong, I think the list is longer: Teibert Henry Akindele It would be nice to add to that list. And that list will be added to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 When? It won't be anytime soon with everybody backing the status quo. And really, that list is not all that impressive with 3 teams in the league. When will the honeymoon period be over and people start expecting real development results out of this endeavour? Not too damn quickly when the media waxes poetic about what revelations Mark Bloom, Jordan Harvey, Heath Pearce, Daniel Lovitz, and Carlyle Mitchell are. canucklefan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VWFC Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 If we are talking about young Canadians who were given a chance who showed that they belong, I think the list is longer: Teibert Henry Akindele It would be nice to add to that list. I understood the point from the original post was that Osorio was picked up from L1O and that there could be others if we stopped relying on the hype and exposure of traditional routes like NCAA. Russell joined Van as a 15 year old - he wasnt plucked from CSL and given a run out with the first team. I think were talking two different things here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Maybe. I was picking up on Keegan's point about how sometimes kids just need a chance to show they belong and sometimes those chances are wasted on mediocre, older MLS standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VWFC Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 When? It won't be anytime soon with everybody backing the status quo. And really, that list is not all that impressive with 3 teams in the league. When will the honeymoon period be over and people start expecting real development results out of this endeavour? Not too damn quickly when the media waxes poetic about what revelations Mark Bloom, Jordan Harvey, Heath Pearce, Daniel Lovitz, and Carlyle Mitchell are. If a 15 yr old joined the residency program in Montreal the year they entred MLS, he'd be 17 today. What are you expecting? At what age do you expect a player to earn a first team role and start to make real contributions? 21, 22, 23, 24? Could be 4-7 years in Montreal, 3-6 in Vancouver, and what you see is what you get in Toronto. Ottawa could be 7 + years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VWFC Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Maybe. I was picking up on Keegan's point about how sometimes kids just need a chance to show they belong and sometimes those chances are wasted on mediocre, older MLS standards. I agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 If a 15 yr old joined the residency program in Montreal the year they entred MLS, he'd be 17 today. What are you expecting? At what age do you expect a player to earn a first team role and start to make real contributions? 21, 22, 23, 24? Could be 4-7 years in Montreal, 3-6 in Vancouver, and what you see is what you get in Toronto. Ottawa could be 7 + years. Vancouver has had their academy since 2007. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VWFC Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) Vancouver has had their academy since 2007. I know. And that academy has produced Teibert, REB, Straith, Porter, Davies, Thomas, Trafford, Caleb etc (most in that 21-24 range), but every time the argument is always "who have they produced in the MLS era". Apparently there are special rules for only the Caps and I'm doing my best to adhere to them. The comment was specific to the MLS era. Edited July 25, 2014 by VWFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 If we are talking about young Canadians who were given a chance who showed that they belong, I think the list is longer: Teibert Henry Akindele It would be nice to add to that list. To be fair, those aren't the only Canadians who were given a chance. They (and Osorio) were just the ones that took full advantage of the opportunity. We need more opportunity for chances all over MLS. The domestic rule needs to be changed, because three top tier teams isn't enough. BearcatSA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearcatSA Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 To be fair, those aren't the only Canadians who were given a chance. They (and Osorio) were just the ones that took full advantage of the opportunity. We need more opportunity for chances all over MLS. The domestic rule needs to be changed, because three top tier teams isn't enough. That's another step in the right direction, maybe not a magic bullet, but definitely a plus. Michael Crampton 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narduch Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 It won't be anytime soon with everybody backing the status quo. Agreed. Too many supposed Canadian Men's National team fans support Canadian players being discriminated in MLS. The existing quota is so low that there is no incentive to improve. Its a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VWFC Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Too many supposed Canadian Men's National team fans support Canadian players being discriminated in MLS. Name one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obinna Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Akindele would probably not be Akindele if not for his domestic tag. Like Osorio, he took his chance, but he HAD the chance and that's the point. It is all about expanding the amount of opportunities available. Changing that rule by next year will (in theory) create 7x more opportunities than currently exist. Still not the magic bullet but more significant than people realize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shermanator Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Sounds like Hamilton is going out on loan. Good move presuming it goes through, competition in the Portugese second division will be much higher than competition in USL Pro. Kurtis Larson @KurtLarSUN 31m I'm told TFC's Jordan Hamilton is set for a loan spell in the Portuguese second division. Unsure of the club. Could be announced soon. #TFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob.notenboom Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Looks confirmed for Hamilton https://twitter.com/lukewileman/status/492863318315765760 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Would it be crass of me to point out that, over the last two pages of this thread, some of the same people who behave like raving fucktards whenever a similar discussion centres around the Whitecaps have been perfectly reasonable making the same points about Toronto FC? Some TFC partisans need to have a very long look in the mirror and see if they can spot the troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatest Cockney Rip Off Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Would it be crass of me to point out that, over the last two pages of this thread, some of the same people who behave like raving fucktards whenever a similar discussion centres around the Whitecaps have been perfectly reasonable making the same points about Toronto FC? You mean like the last page where the same people were criticising TFC's use of American journeymen players over Canadian players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 You mean like the last page where the same people were criticising TFC's use of American journeymen players over Canadian players? Yes, in a very reasonable manner. Nothing like the usual fuckwit behaviour that comes from some of the more TO-centric posters whenever the Vancouver Whitecaps get mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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