Caniggia ‘Ginola’ Elva

[Unnamed Trialist]

14 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

championship is a higher level than the b2 but not by much. just look at the amount of money teams spend in the leagues. the championship is legit the 6th or 7th best league in the world. 

I disagree on this. First, as I mentioned, it has far more filler, it has garbage teams that would not only not be in B2, they would not be in Serie B or Spanish 2nd. A quarter of Championship is third tier level. This lowers the level as everyone recognizes: if you have less teams, you get harder competition, better average overall players. Then they have this stupid schedule which makes it even worse, overworking a roster has no benefit and in fact hurts the player and the play IMO. Filler teams, hyped schedule, lower quality football.

As I said, I saw a B2 match some 18 mo ago, over 40,000 in the stadium, amazing atmosphere, and a v. exciting match. It was not great play, but it was not worse than Championship.

Money. England pays and overpays for British players. But the English player pool is not better than the German, nor the Spanish, nor the Italian for that matter. In fact England has worse international results than all three in the last 4 decades or so. Leaving aside the most recent youth teams emerging, which is the exception that proves the rule. You are paying for a player who is not clearly better and he is there because it is his country he is playing in. And because he can make more at home than abroad.

Back to Germany: if you look at German clubs that have won cups in Europe over the entire history of cup play, including Cup winners and the old UEFA, I believe no other nation has so many different clubs as winners. 

The point is: this bias has no basis and is badly argued if you think overall budgets is the determining factor.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Unnamed Trialist

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Obinna, there is no evidence that Championship is a higher level than B1. I'd argue the contrary, it is a lower average level. 

B1 has 18 teams, EPL 20. That means the group is more exclusive.

B2 also has 18 teams, Championship has 24. A quarter of the entire division would be in B3. The Championship is chock full of filler, the level is not as demanding when it comes to staying at that level. 

If Elva is playing in B2 next season, he'll be at least as high as Championship.

I never said Championship is higher than B1. Of course it is not. B1 is a much better league.

B2 is similar to the Championship, but I think the Championship may be slightly better, but fair enough if we want to say they are similar. We don't want to split hairs.

My point was that should Elva make it to B2, he still may find it tough to break into our team, as he wouldn't be playing at a level superior to Hoilett, Larin, David, and Davies who are the incumbents at wide forward. I was putting Cavallini aside because he'll only ever play as a CF, but the rest could find themselves out wide where Elva plays.  Even guys like Buchanan and Nelsen could be ahead of him, not to mention Millar and Corbeanu. I do think that playing well in B2 puts him into the conversation, however.

[archer21]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I disagree on this. First, as I mentioned, it has far more filler, it has garbage teams that would not only not be in B2, they would not be in Serie B or Spanish 2nd. A quarter of Championship is third tier level. This lowers the level as everyone recognizes: if you have less teams, you get harder competition, better average overall players. Then they have this stupid schedule which makes it even worse, overworking a roster has no benefit and in fact hurts the player and the play IMO. Filler teams, hyped schedule, lower quality football.

As I said, I saw a B2 match some 18 mo ago, over 40,000 in the stadium, amazing atmosphere, and a v. exciting match. It was not great play, but it was not worse than Championship.

Money. England pays and overpays for British players. But the English player pool is not better than the German, nor the Spanish, nor the Italian for that matter. In fact England has worse international results than all three in the last 4 decades or so. Leaving aside the most recent youth teams emerging, which is the exception that proves the rule. You are paying for a player who is not clearly better and he is there because it is his country he is playing in. And because he can make more at home than abroad.

Back to Germany: if you look at German clubs that have won cups in Europe over the entire history of cup play, including Cup winners and the old UEFA, I believe no other nation has so many different clubs as winners. 

The point is: this bias has no basis and is badly argued if you think overall budgets is the determining factor.

While you make some good points about English players being overvalued, I think you’re still wrong to think that budget isn’t a big factor in how good a club is. Look at the likes of Norwich, with Teemu Pukki, Buendia, Cantwell, Aarons. I don’t know that 2.Bundesliga has players at such a high level. Championship clubs can sign expensive foreign players, look at Wolves a couple years ago or Leeds recently. There may be a drop off at the bottom of the league, but it isn’t so drastic to say that it makes 2.Bundesliga a better league. I’d say there is a bigger gap from the top half or 3/4 of Championship 2.Bundesliga than there is of the bottom 1/4 of 2.Bundesliga to Championship.

[CanadaFan123]

33 minutes ago, archer21 said:

While you make some good points about English players being overvalued, I think you’re still wrong to think that budget isn’t a big factor in how good a club is. Look at the likes of Norwich, with Teemu Pukki, Buendia, Cantwell, Aarons. I don’t know that 2.Bundesliga has players at such a high level. Championship clubs can sign expensive foreign players, look at Wolves a couple years ago or Leeds recently. There may be a drop off at the bottom of the league, but it isn’t so drastic to say that it makes 2.Bundesliga a better league. I’d say there is a bigger gap from the top half or 3/4 of Championship 2.Bundesliga than there is of the bottom 1/4 of 2.Bundesliga to Championship.

It's true. No one can reasonably say that B2 is a higher level than the Championship - the budgets of Championship clubs are massive. 

Look at Jahn Regensburg and Kennedy. I'm sorry but no Championship club is signing a guy from second division Austria to jump into their squad. Look at his teammates as well - no real players of note whereas Championship clubs as you identify tend to have some high $ players.

[Obinna]

I wonder how B3 and League One compare. Unnamed Trialist suggested B3 is arguably the best 3rd division in the world, and it's kind of hard to disagree with that. League One is the only other that's probably comparable. 

For arguments sake, if we say they are a similar level, I guess it opens up room for an Elva vs. Millar debate, right?

Lets put aside the fact that Liam is attached to Liverpool and just watch and compare how each does for the rest of the season. So far both players are contributing to promotion chasing clubs, both are playing in similar positions, so is it a leap to suggest that both may be competing for the same spot on our senior team?

It's a fun head-to-head we can look at more closely as the rest of the European season unfolds...

[Mikmacdo]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

I wonder how B3 and League One compare. Unnamed Trialist suggested B3 is arguably the best 3rd division in the world, and it's kind of hard to disagree with that. League One is the only other that's probably comparable. 

For arguments sake, if we say they are a similar level, I guess it opens up room for an Elva vs. Millar debate, right?

Lets put aside the fact that Liam is attached to Liverpool and just watch and compare how each does for the rest of the season. So far both players are contributing to promotion chasing clubs, both are playing in similar positions, so is it a leap to suggest that both may be competing for the same spot on our senior team?

It's a fun head-to-head we can look at more closely as the rest of the European season unfolds...

Miller is dominant in pretty much every game I watch him in. Isn't he also a few years younger than Elva? 

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

Miller is dominant in pretty much every game I watch him in. Isn't he also a few years younger than Elva? 

Yup Millar is younger by 3 years. I haven't watched Ingolstadt at all this season, but my impression is that Elva is not dominating in the way that Millar is, so there's that. On the other hand, Charlton are holding on to 6th place and their rivals have games in hand, while Ingolstadt are tied for 1st place, for what it's worth. 

[Kent]

When the hell is UEFA going to create a 2nd tier Champions League, with all the best 2nd tier teams involved so that we can settle these 2nd tier league comparison debates that always seem to pop up on this forum. Make it happen FIFA! Best of the non-promoted teams play in the following year's Champions League.

[SpecialK]

I would love to see him play in the Gold Cup. 

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, Kent said:

When the hell is UEFA going to create a 2nd tier Champions League, with all the best 2nd tier teams involved so that we can settle these 2nd tier league comparison debates that always seem to pop up on this forum. Make it happen FIFA! Best of the non-promoted teams play in the following year's Champions League.

That's pretty funny, but it would be kind of cool. 

Speaking of UEFA and FIFA, I think it would be cool to give the Europa League winner a spot in the Club World Cup. The purists might disagree, but usually it's a club like Sevilla that wins, which would spice things up a bit, because more often than not it's the UCL winner who takes the title handily, with the Copa Liberadores winner taking the odd title here and there. 

It's pretty refreshing the CCL champions will be in the final this time, and obviously that's good for our region, but it's going to be UCL winning again. 

Anyways, back to Elva..

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Kent said:

When the hell is UEFA going to create a 2nd tier Champions League, with all the best 2nd tier teams involved so that we can settle these 2nd tier league comparison debates that always seem to pop up on this forum. Make it happen FIFA! Best of the non-promoted teams play in the following year's Champions League.

The closest thing out there is called the Europa League, and Spanish club Sevilla roll over everyone else. Now look at Sevilla's budget and shoot this reductionist argument out the window. 

The fact is, Ingolstadt is tied for 19th best in Germany. Cardiff is 30th best in England. Charlton is the 50th best club in the FA as we stand. The 50th best club in Germany is being threatened for relegation out of Bundesliga3 into the dregs. Everything else put to work to minimise the value of where Elva plays is just bias and blinders, and this mentality has been a working factor against Canadian soccer for decades. 

[archer21]

13 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The closest thing out there is called the Europa League, and Spanish club Sevilla roll over everyone else. Now look at Sevilla's budget and shoot this reductionist argument out the window. 

The fact is, Ingolstadt is tied for 19th best in Germany. Cardiff is 30th best in England. Charlton is the 50th best club in the FA as we stand. The 50th best club in Germany is being threatened for relegation out of Bundesliga3 into the dregs. Everything else put to work to minimise the value of where Elva plays is just bias and blinders, and this mentality has been a working factor against Canadian soccer for decades. 

I’m not trying to minimize where Elva plays, I just disagree with you that 2.Bundesliga is stronger than Championship. I actually agree that 3.Liga is a good league, arguably better than League One top to bottom. 
 

Also, Ingolstadt would be tied for 37th best team in Germany, not 19th (that would be Hamburger SV). If your point is Ingolstadt are better than Charlton, you may be right. To claim they’re better than Cardiff is way off in my opinion though. Even to put them against Huddersfield (37th in England) is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

[Obinna]

27 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The closest thing out there is called the Europa League, and Spanish club Sevilla roll over everyone else. Now look at Sevilla's budget and shoot this reductionist argument out the window. 

The fact is, Ingolstadt is tied for 19th best in Germany. Cardiff is 30th best in England. Charlton is the 50th best club in the FA as we stand. The 50th best club in Germany is being threatened for relegation out of Bundesliga3 into the dregs. Everything else put to work to minimise the value of where Elva plays is just bias and blinders, and this mentality has been a working factor against Canadian soccer for decades. 

For your information, Ingolstadt are in B3, not B2 (yet). To say they are 19th would mean they're 1st in the 2.Bundesliga.

I think you may be skipping a level by mistake. Perhaps that's why you thought I was claiming Championship was better than B1?

Edited February 10, 2021 by Obinna

[Snowcrash]

I've streamed a few Charleton games and because I've got too much time on my hands, I watched a half of the latest Ingolstadt game.  The Transfermarkt value for both teams are roughly similar but for what it's worth, there are a lot more players on Charleton who would embarrass themselves in a rondo drill than on Ingolstadt. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Snowcrash

[toontownman]

Top half of the championship is essentially as good as the bottom half of the premiership imo. The championship has evolved in the past 5-10 massively. 

Will have to start watch 3rd tier German football if it's as good as the premiership. 😛

I honestly don't have a reference point to german football to add to a comparison but I think the championship is possibly better than is being represented. It's not just long ball dross. League one, now your talking dross. Not just because Sunderland are in it.

[CanadaFan123]

6 minutes ago, toontownman said:

Top half of the championship is essentially as good as the bottom half of the premiership imo. The championship has evolved in the past 5-10 massively. 

Will have to start watch 3rd tier German football if it's as good as the premiership. 😛

I honestly don't have a reference point to german football to add to a comparison but I think the championship is possibly better than is being represented. It's not just long ball dross. League one, now your talking dross. Not just because Sunderland are in it.

League one isn’t bad though and it’s not long ball. Just compare Liams time in Scotland to league one. Clearly the style is much more in his favour currently and that’s because they’re actually playing some good stuff.

I used to attend League Two matches regularly and you would often (not always) see better stuff than MLS even. 

[toontownman]

Definitely it's a strange league. 7 teams that have been in the premiership in the last decade or so. 

It is the same (to a much great standard) as when I watch the CPL. There are those moments where players do some great things but ultimately they then miscontroll the ball, slip on it or make stupid decisions that highlight why they are at the level they are at. The English leagues are all pretty similar but just watered down. There are teams in league 2 for instance that play a better brand of football than I have seen Newcastle play this year! Just when push comes to shove the x factor that makes top level players or managers isn't always there.

[CanadaFan123]

The thing with all these levels (including CPL) is that the players all seem to be on the same level at least, whereas with MLS you could have a player who could play on any side in the prem trying to combine with a national league level player... it’s almost like a testimonial at times. So you can see amazing stuff or some off sync Sunday league level stuff.

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

The thing with all these levels (including CPL) is that the players all seem to be on the same level at least, whereas with MLS you could have a player who could play on any side in the prem trying to combine with a national league level player... it’s almost like a testimonial at times. So you can see amazing stuff or some off sync Sunday league level stuff.

Very true, but at least the floor in MLS is raising.

With every year the proportion of GAM increases and the proportion TAM decreases. This means more money to spread around the squad, lifting the floor. The total salary outlay is getting progressively bigger as well, I think I read this morning that it's going to be around $13M by 2027.

[RS]

14 hours ago, Obinna said:

The total salary outlay is getting progressively bigger as well, I think I read this morning that it's going to be around $13M by 2027.

That's the "salary budget" (a.k.a. the money available to each club that's paid for by the league). Several MLS clubs have spent more on wages than $13M every season for a number of years now.

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, RS said:

That's the "salary budget" (a.k.a. the money available to each club that's paid for by the league). Several MLS clubs have spent more on wages than $13M every season for a number of years now.

Yes I know, I should have been clear. I understand that DP wages are not included in those numbers. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

21 hours ago, Obinna said:

For your information, Ingolstadt are in B3, not B2 (yet). To say they are 19th would mean they're 1st in the 2.Bundesliga.

I think you may be skipping a level by mistake. Perhaps that's why you thought I was claiming Championship was better than B1?

No, I just mixed myself up with this tendentious argument of mine. 

I do agree that revenue sharing in England to ensure the teams dropping into Championship don't have to totally restructure is the best model. I don't know if there is the same in lower divisions. Really only England and Germany with a single national 3rd tier are set up to create a powerful multi-tier block. All the nations that fragment regionally end up favouring lower middle class development. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Unnamed Trialist

[Shway]

His team FC Ingolstadt are in 2nd place in 3.Bundesliga , automatic promotion spot with 4 games to play. They were very unfortunate last season where they slipped into the playoff spot by an extra time goal, and they loss promotion by from  extra time goal as well. Here's hoping they have better fortunes.
 
He's had a good season again with 5 goals and 4 assists. Last year he had 3 goals and 5 assists. 

Definitely someone I would want to see in a Gold Cup B squad.

 

[youllneverwalkalone]

Elva definitely seems ready for a step up personally, after several seasons in B3. I'd love to see him in a camp sometime soon.

[Blackjack15]

If Elva promotes to b2 and plays regularly i say you call him. Also he might have to move to Austrian Bundeslisga or Danish Superliga.  Easier said than done. Even Sweden top tier would give him more exposure than B3.