Caniggia ‘Ginola’ Elva

[Fussball_eh]

Vfb Stuttgart, he was there on trial last month.

Thanks!

[Unnamed Trialist]

Vfb Stuttgart, he was there on trial last month.

That Mundo Deportivo article says he tried out with Stuttgart, Schalke 04 and Hoffenheim and that Stuttgart, as said, was closest.

[Keegan]

Intriguing and scary for any Canadian fan. Kid with no Canadian passport who is being heralded as the best Canadian talent ever. Watching the video I see an extremely talented player for sure but I'm not so sure that it's fair to label him that. By comparisons sake Hanson Boakai is younger than Elva, has international experience and professional experience and has also been called the best Canadian talent by others. Michael Petrasso has never been called the best Canadian talent ever but is only months older than Elva with experience at 4 professional clubs, a U17 WC and a U20 WC qualifying cycle and from what I've been watching lately looks really impressive and most likely further ahead than Elva.

Why wasn't Elva signed by one of the three Canadian clubs last year? Diego Fagundez was signed and playing for NE as a 16 year old so it's not like he's too young. Our 3 Canadian MLS clubs all have stated ambitions of being the biggest club in North America so how does a talent like this stick with a youth club in Calgary? Why wouldn't he sign for Edmonton for a season or two?

It all seems a bit strange, like there's a crazy hype machine that's taking off that is going to crash to the ground. I don't want to be a pessimist just cautious. Of course I hope Elva joins the U20 team this year with Boakai, Hamilton, Petrasso, Carreiro, Larin, Carducci, Gasparatto, Adekugbe, Gagnon-Lapare, Aparicio, Froese-Gonzalez, Bustos etc. and runs over CONCACAF but I don't want us to be hurt again (LOL).

[rob.notenboom]

It all seems a bit strange, like there's a crazy hype machine that's taking off that is going to crash to the ground. I don't want to be a pessimist just cautious. Of course I hope Elva joins the U20 team this year with Boakai, Hamilton, Petrasso, Carreiro, Larin, Carducci, Gasparatto, Adekugbe, Gagnon-Lapare, Aparicio, Froese-Gonzalez, Bustos etc. and runs over CONCACAF but I don't want us to be hurt again (LOL).

A million times bitten, finally shy? ... I don't blame you.

[jpg75]

I deleted my post in the MOACA (should have known better than to contribute to cluttering it up), this is what i had written:

I actually think he might be better off going to Barcelona and having his technical game fostered. He would likely play on their U19 squad next year and if he's good enough then play for Barca "B" the next season in the Spanish Segunda which is probably a slightly better level than MLS (and definitely more technical). Even if he never got called to Barca "A" he'd spend a few years in a great environment and probably have a chance of catching on with another Primera club.

As Keegan is alluding to, let's keep some perspective on this situation. Elva is going on trial with Arsenal and he may not even be offered a contract and if he does sign then he is likely to play for the U21 side next season and may or may not get much PT. If he signs at Stuttgart he'd be playing on their second team probably in the 4th tier (or might even play for their U19's, who knows).

As for why he was in Calgary, it's possible he suffered from homesickness (his teammate with the Caps, Elijah Adekugbe who is the same age also got homesick and returned to Calgary) or he's a late bloomer who took a big step last year. And correct me if i'm wrong, but he was playing U18 last summer which was up an age group for him.

[Tuscan]

So what's the current barrier to this kid playing for one of our youth national teams? Lack of citizenship?

[Unnamed Trialist]

I deleted my post in the MOACA (should have known better than to contribute to cluttering it up), this is what i had written:

I actually think he might be better off going to Barcelona and having his technical game fostered. He would likely play on their U19 squad next year and if he's good enough then play for Barca "B" the next season in the Spanish Segunda which is probably a slightly better level than MLS (and definitely more technical). Even if he never got called to Barca "A" he'd spend a few years in a great environment and probably have a chance of catching on with another Primera club.

As Keegan is alluding to, let's keep some perspective on this situation. Elva is going on trial with Arsenal and he may not even be offered a contract and if he does sign then he is likely to play for the U21 side next season and may or may not get much PT. If he signs at Stuttgart he'd be playing on their second team probably in the 4th tier (or might even play for their U19's, who knows).

As for why he was in Calgary, it's possible he suffered from homesickness (his teammate with the Caps, Elijah Adekugbe who is the same age also got homesick and returned to Calgary) or he's a late bloomer who took a big step last year. And correct me if i'm wrong, but he was playing U18 last summer which was up an age group for him.

If he signs at Barça I'd be stunned. He's too old to develop properly and has never played truly competitive football (sorry Calgary fans). In any case Barça has very few options, we''ve cut back on the number of youth teams we have and the number of players in the system. But let him play u-19 at any serious pro club in Europe and he'll develop a ton, on all levels. Because I have serious doubts that hot-dogging you see in the video would be at all effective vs. proper competition.

[jpg75]

Because I have serious doubts that hot-dogging you see in the video would be at all effective vs. proper competition.

Quoted for truth.

[Guest Ed]

CBC Radio interview with Ramon Mifflin Jr of SWU from late last week.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/Local+Shows/Alberta/ID/2439742696/

[shamrock]

I was posting in the Canadians abroad-thread, which was wrong.

Are people kidding?

Arsene has CREATED the careers of the some of the best players in football history. Not to mention that he is famous/infamous for putting young'ns in the first team if he think they've got 'it'.

If he impresses, if he is good enough, Arsene will put him out there, just ask Cesc, Serge, Theo, Ox, Denilson, Vela.... the list goes on. Not all of these players stuck with the Gunners, but at the very least it helped their careers. He could go out on loan like Joel Campbell.

Quite being such apologetic fans. Arsenal is the BEST possibility, because it is the BEST of the teams that have been looking at him. For once, don't be ashamed of being a Canadian Footie fan and wanting the BEST for our players.

Ask Jamie Peters how it turned out playing it 'safe' at a club where he could expect playing time.

Yes I think you're better of at Arsenal than with Chelsea or Man City or one of those big spenders. They will always bring in very expensive players instead of working the longer traject of implementing talented youth-players.

But for every succes you mention, there's 4 or 5 lads who didn't succeed, even under Wenger. He's not a magician who can look into the future, he has been right on a couple of big stars yes, but ask him about his succes-rate, it's prob gonna be 20 % or something which would be very good.

One more thing though, it was mentioned that Stuttgart has one of the best academies in Germany, which is true. I would also like to point out that their second team plays in the 3. Bundesliga, unlike Duesseldorf for instance who have their U23 playing in the Regionalliga.

Of course it's hard when clubs like Arsenal show interest, but this is why kids like Elva should use experienced agents, who can tell him to look beyond the big name to what would best suit his longterm-career. I don't think Podolski, Mertesacker or Ozil really regret they perfected their skill in Germany before they went off.

[Tuscan]

Agreed. I also hope he ends up in Germany with one of the clubs renowned for their academy. Arsenal only just debuted a kid from their academy the other day, but that is the first player from their academy I've seen come through to the first team in a while. Same thing with other big English clubs, I can't remember the last time an academy kid started for City or Chelsea (christ I'm a fan of the Mighty Blues and can't remember!) whereas in Germany this is more common-place.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I was posting in the Canadians abroad-thread, which was wrong.

Yes I think you're better of at Arsenal than with Chelsea or Man City or one of those big spenders. They will always bring in very expensive players instead of working the longer traject of implementing talented youth-players.

But for every succes you mention, there's 4 or 5 lads who didn't succeed, even under Wenger. He's not a magician who can look into the future, he has been right on a couple of big stars yes, but ask him about his succes-rate, it's prob gonna be 20 % or something which would be very good.

One more thing though, it was mentioned that Stuttgart has one of the best academies in Germany, which is true. I would also like to point out that their second team plays in the 3. Bundesliga, unlike Duesseldorf for instance who have their U23 playing in the Regionalliga.

Of course it's hard when clubs like Arsenal show interest, but this is why kids like Elva should use experienced agents, who can tell him to look beyond the big name to what would best suit his longterm-career. I don't think Podolski, Mertesacker or Ozil really regret they perfected their skill in Germany before they went off.

This is the board that mostly thought that Peters was better off playing at Ipswich than developing at Chelsea was it not? Oh well. Same board that watched Wyn Belotte leave Nantes academy at 17 years old to get a pro contract at powerhouse IFK Norrköping. So yes, develop boys, by all means, and take your time please.

Just a comment about Arsenal academy, very admirable. They tend to develop a bit late, they are not starting early enough from what I see, a lot of their talent is bought at 16-17. Like Cesc, remember he was voted best player at the world u-17 tournament in Finland and then went to Arsenal. So who developed him really? So Elva is the right age, but is no where near the player as any of the guys Arsenal signs. Now if he plays a scrimmage in any of these top clubs and someone likes him, then wonderful, I'd be amazed and thrilled.

[Keegan]

This is the board that mostly thought that Peters was better off playing at Ipswich than developing at Chelsea was it not? Oh well. Same board that watched Wyn Belotte leave Nantes academy at 17 years old to get a pro contract at powerhouse IFK Norrköping. So yes, develop boys, by all means, and take your time please.

Just a comment about Arsenal academy, very admirable. They tend to develop a bit late, they are not starting early enough from what I see, a lot of their talent is bought at 16-17. Like Cesc, remember he was voted best player at the world u-17 tournament in Finland and then went to Arsenal. So who developed him really? So Elva is the right age, but is no where near the player as any of the guys Arsenal signs. Now if he plays a scrimmage in any of these top clubs and someone likes him, then wonderful, I'd be amazed and thrilled.

The common denominator with Belotte and Peters wasn't their career choices, it was their personalities that stopped them from succeeding. To this day I think Peters being in th first team at Ipswich was a golden opportunity at 18 years old, he just blew it. Even though they weren't a massive club he was at a good club and one of the top 40 in England. Not to mention Jason De Vos was at the club, one of the greatest Canadian leaders ever and he still couldn't get that fire lit under him. Just because coaches at a higher level are better trainers it doesn't necessarily mean they are better motivators than a 2nd division coach and that was the problem, Peters wasn't, isn't and never will be motivated. If a player like Boakai was offered the chance to join Stuttgart's academy and turned it down to get matches in the 2B with Karlruhe as an example I would back it 100%.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Keegan

[ag futbol]

There is still this cloud over our prospects where we want them to succeed but people splash in a dash of pessimism. We want them to be as great as possible, but have a hard time believing they'll survive in a big club. Starting from the bottom is principled and safe, but it often limits your upward trajectory.

I'll applaud anyone who wants to swing for the fences. We need players who are tougher and feel they can succeed. I hate to bring it up again, but 8-1 at Honduras said a lot about our program on many levels, be it skills or mental toughness.

[ag futbol]

The common denominator with Belotte and Peters wasn't their career choices, it was their personalities that stopped them from succeeding. To this day I think Peters being in th first team at Ipswich was a golden opportunity at 18 years old, he just blew it. Even though they weren't a massive club he was at a good club and one of the top 40 in England. Not to mention Jason De Vos was at the club, one of the greatest Canadian leaders ever and he still couldn't get that fire lit under him. Just because coaches at a higher level are better trainers it doesn't necessarily mean they are better motivators than a 2nd division coach and that was the problem, Peters wasn't, isn't and never will be motivated. If a player like Boakai was offered the chance to join Stuttgart's academy and turned it down to get matches in the 2B with Karlruhe as an example I would back it 100%.

Ultimately the blame does go to Peters, but keep in mind some clubs out there do a great job managing personalities and keeping things in check. Professional footballers are typically not geniuses or in some cases the upstanding people we'd want them to be. Do we not see the odd guy out there and say: "how has this guy kept it together with that **** attitude / off the field antics / IQ of a small dog / etc..? ". The answer is great coaches and systems that help players succeed in-spite of themselves. Great talent is more rare than a great attitude unfortunately, which is the reason clubs still put up with it.

For all the resources / opportunity we say was in place for him at Ipswich, it failed in this case. DeVos has talked about the environment around Peters when he was doing well and said there were some bad influences about. So maybe it wasn't the best and the description of what he could offer has been slightly over done. He stays at Chelsea, maybe they humble him a little more and make him realize he's one talent of many they have around. He puts his head down, works and stops reading his press clipping.

Anyway, I'm not saying this to suggest Peter's would have been successful if he stayed, but rather the workman like case being made for lower level clubs is being exaggerated.

Edited March 6, 2014 by ag futbol

[Wingback6]

There is still this cloud over our prospects where we want them to succeed but people splash in a dash of pessimism. We want them to be as great as possible, but have a hard time believing they'll survive in a big club. Starting from the bottom is principled and safe, but it often limits your upward trajectory.

I'll applaud anyone who wants to swing for the fences. We need players who are tougher and feel they can succeed. I hate to bring it up again, but 8-1 at Honduras said a lot about our program on many levels, be it skills or mental toughness.

Thank you. Glad to see someone else gets it.

[Bertuzzi44]

Ultimately the blame does go to Peters, but keep in mind some clubs out there do a great job managing personalities and keeping things in check. Professional footballers are typically not geniuses or in some cases the upstanding people we'd want them to be. Do we not see the odd guy out there and say: "how has this guy kept it together with that **** attitude / off the field antics / IQ of a small dog / etc..? ". The answer is great coaches and systems that help players succeed in-spite of themselves. Great talent is more rare than a great attitude unfortunately, which is the reason clubs still put up with it.

For all the resources / opportunity we say was in place for him at Ipswich, it failed in this case. DeVos has talked about the environment around Peters when he was doing well and said there were some bad influences about. So maybe it wasn't the best and the description of what he could offer has been slightly over done. He stays at Chelsea, maybe they humble him a little more and make him realize he's one talent of many they have around. He puts his head down, works and stops reading his press clipping.

Anyway, I'm not saying this to suggest Peter's would have been successful if he stayed, but rather the workman like case being made for lower level clubs is being exaggerated.

Peters did make over 100 league appearances in the Championship, so his career certainly wasn't a failure (especially when compared to Belotte's), but then again Peters is still only 26 and currently has no club.

Maybe he just burned out a la Lensky, etc?

[jpg75]

Peters did make over 100 league appearances in the Championship, so his career certainly wasn't a failure (especially when compared to Belotte's), but then again Peters is still only 26 and currently has no club.

Maybe he just burned out a la Lensky, etc?

Jaime Peters was a phenomenal youth talent who, if he had reached his full potential could have been an EPL regular. He didn't burn out, he just didn't put in the effort required to keep improving and essentially stagnated as a player. He was trying the same moves he'd used as an 18 yr old at the age of 23 (push and run) and when you gain 20 pounds you can't outrun guys like you did when you were a kid.

[Keegan]

Peters was unbelievable as a youth. I remember showing people him burn Brazil in 2006 and they thought he was Canada Soccer's answer to Crosby. I thought he was destined to be an EPL regular at the very least. He had a great run up the 2007 U20 World Cup, playing well for the national team as well as Ipswich and then since that tournament it's been all down hill. The strange thing is that the Ipswich saga hasn't woken him up.. he has failed at multiple trials with smaller clubs.

If I'm Ryan Nelsen I call him and tell him he has a trial in 2.5 months time and to show up fit as he can be. Moving back home might motivate him to start focusing and getting fit so that he may have the chance to represent his home at an exciting time. The move would be beneficial for both sides as Toronto is thin at right back and could use another winger. But I wouldn't hold my breath even if Nelsen (or anyone) did give him that offer.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Peters was NOT a great talent at 18. I can tell you he was like loads of other kids with top-flight possibilities at that age. I have seen enough kids of this age or younger playing for Barça B and the talent is everywhere. Jamie was fast and had pace and did some tricky things on the wing, he was dynamic. Little more, but hey, it's a lot.

In retrospect (though even then I was in favour of him staying at Chelsea and said so on these boards) he needed to develop beside truly great future stars and have top quality coaches. I am sorry, you are not going to convince me that if he'd come out of Chelsea at age 20-21 he would not have been a better player.

But okay, I am maybe being too hard, I can also think of tons of kids for the club I follow who get impatient and take off young. Lots too who may end up having a pro career but never reach their potential. Not everyone makes it. Hey, looking for a comment I once made about Adu and a Barça youth flop, Babandiga, I found what I said about Messi here in 2005:

[jpg75]

Peters scored approx. 20 goals during the 2003-04 U19 Bundesliga season for FC Kaiserslautern - he was 16 at the time, playing as a central attacking midfielder. Not bad for a Canadian kid.

[finchster]

Why are we so quick to blame a team for player development? The player and his desire (or lack thereof) is often the determining factor. Jackson ended up playing in the EPL for a bit, Peters did not, but it wasn't because Jackson was more talented than Peters at a young age.

[Tuscan]

So how bout that Elva kid...

[ag futbol]

Peters did make over 100 league appearances in the Championship, so his career certainly wasn't a failure (especially when compared to Belotte's), but then again Peters is still only 26 and currently has no club.

Maybe he just burned out a la Lensky, etc?

I understand where you are coming from. I wasn't trying to post about Peter's as much as pointing out that these lower division sides aren't necessarily the superior path.

Why are we so quick to blame a team for player development? The player and his desire (or lack thereof) is often the determining factor. Jackson ended up playing in the EPL for a bit, Peters did not, but it wasn't because Jackson was more talented than Peters at a young age.

I assume you are alluding to my post. I did acknowledge that Peters' failure is ultimately on him, but at the same time wanted to illustrate that the development case being made for these lower league clubs is overdone. I'm just tired of the overly-romanticized idea of starting at the bottom.

Edited March 7, 2014 by ag futbol

[finchster]

I assume you are alluding to my post. I did acknowledge that Peters' failure is ultimately on him, but at the same time wanted to illustrate that the development case being made for these lower league clubs is overdone. I'm just tired of the overly-romanticized idea of starting at the bottom.

I wasn't really, I was just making a point that talent is half the battle and desire is the other half. Peters doesn't have that burning desire the great players do, his speed was flat out dangerous, but he let himself go and wasted his best natural ability.