Jump to content

Lucas Cavallini


section114row20

Recommended Posts

My playing experience has nothing to do with how well I can analyze the game. 

I haven't experienced that before. I will get into a lot of arguments when having said beer with individuals. However, when they see me a week or so later, they all will begrudgingly say "you were right...." 

To think that all these years little old me never knew he was sharing a forum with such a genius. What an honour. Raise us all higher oh wise one!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do suffer from intermittent explosive disorder, which causes me to lash out without much provocation I'm afraid. Judging by my posts yesterday, I think it was just me having another episode. I apologize to everyone on this forum...especially Obinna and Grizz.

Edited by Macksam
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Macksam is also right about Uruguay. I have watched more MLS this year than ever, and I cannot say I have seen a single truly quality game, apart from being biased about certain Whitecaps wins. The give aways, bad decision making, tactical awkwardness, they force you to bunker down into pure fan mode--if your team wins or the rival loses, great game. But the level of the soccer is poor, making the amazing players all the better.

I don't think most Uruguay teams after the top 2-3 are really that good, and their results in Libertadores or Sudamericana suggests this too, but I have no doubt the quality on the ball is superior to MLS.

I also believe that the coaching is miles ahead.

Edited by Unnamed Trialist
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do suffer from intermittent explosive disorder, which causes me to lash out without much provocation I'm afraid. Judging by my posts yesterday, I think it was just me having another episode. I apologize to everyone on this forum...especially Obinna and Grizz.

Well at least your lashing out is humourous. No harm done. Still disagree with you and Jefferey about the Uruguay league though. I don't doubt that a lot of the players have high technical skill level but that doesn't necessarily make them good players. There are a lot of other skills that go into making a good player beyond technical skill such as athleticism, tactical awareness and ability to play in a system, off the ball movement, ability to play both offence and defence etc. And when I watch the Uruguayan league the defending seems semi-pro level at best outside of the top few teams. I don't doubt that the coaching is good though especially at the youth level as otherwise they would not produce so many good players. Their recipe for success seems to be a lot of good coaching and skill development at the youth level, a league that is easy to break into the first team for young players and a lot of opportunity for the most talented of those young players after a year or two to continue their development in a better league in South America or Europe. Doesn't mean the level of play of the league itself is very high and I find that whenever I watch a team from midtable downwards it is a very poor level of play, far below MLS though in a skills/ball control competition maybe some of the players would be better than the average MLS player (though not better as an overall soccer player).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Macksam is also right about Uruguay. I have watched more MLS this year than ever, and I cannot say I have seen a single truly quality game, apart from being biased about certain Whitecaps wins. The give aways, bad decision making, tactical awkwardness, they force you to bunker down into pure fan mode--if your team wins or the rival loses, great game. But the level of the soccer is poor, making the amazing players all the better.

I don't think most Uruguay teams after the top 2-3 are really that good, and their results in Libertadores or Sudamericana suggests this too, but I have no doubt the quality on the ball is superior to MLS.

I also believe that the coaching is miles ahead.

I think you need to watch the very first televised game of the year again, Whitecaps vs TFC.  That game was extremely quality, even if it was months ago.  Anyone else remember that?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the important point is not to think Uruguay is a clearly lower level than MLS and thus conclude that Cavallini is really not that good. Add to that the fact that he is on a modest team doing very well, and he is scoring, all in his favour. 

Sure, you could say something similar about Occean in Norway. The drop off in Norway is also sharp, like in Uruguay. But since MLS defending is notoriously sloppy, I don't think you can argue that scoring in MLS is harder than in either of those leagues. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you need to watch the very first televised game of the year again, Whitecaps vs TFC.  That game was extremely quality, even if it was months ago.  Anyone else remember that?  

That game was of really great quality. It's just too bad the rest of the season hasn't come anywhere the level of that first game unfortunately. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the important point is not to think Uruguay is a clearly lower level than MLS and thus conclude that Cavallini is really not that good. Add to that the fact that he is on a modest team doing very well, and he is scoring, all in his favour. 

Sure, you could say something similar about Occean in Norway. The drop off in Norway is also sharp, like in Uruguay. But since MLS defending is notoriously sloppy, I don't think you can argue that scoring in MLS is harder than in either of those leagues. 

Have you watched the Uruguayan league?  The defending is much worse than even MLS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you watched the Uruguayan league?  The defending is much worse than even MLS.

I have watched numerous Uruguayan matches on GolTv and this seems to be a misconception that people on this forum have been making - probably from highlight clips. The defenders down there are typically sound positionally and tactically. Might not be as athletic as MLS defenders (size, strength, speed) but have alot more between the ears.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Macksam is also right about Uruguay. I have watched more MLS this year than ever, and I cannot say I have seen a single truly quality game, apart from being biased about certain Whitecaps wins. The give aways, bad decision making, tactical awkwardness, they force you to bunker down into pure fan mode--if your team wins or the rival loses, great game. But the level of the soccer is poor, making the amazing players all the better.

I don't think most Uruguay teams after the top 2-3 are really that good, and their results in Libertadores or Sudamericana suggests this too, but I have no doubt the quality on the ball is superior to MLS.

I also believe that the coaching is miles ahead.

I think Jeffery (and others) who believe the Uruguayan league is better value particular aspects of the game (i.e composure on the ball, individual technique etc.) over other aspects (i.e game speed, individual brilliance etc.). Then, they cherry pick the aspects of the game they like (or view as more important) when arguing that Uruguay is better than MLS.

Of course, there is no debate that the majority of players in Uruguay are better on the ball. There is also no debate that the pace of MLS is quicker and the elite players in MLS pull off the extraordinary more often than their Uruguayan counterparts. This has only been pointing out the obvious - not providing evidence that one league is superior. Just wanted to make that clear.

The fact that we are not unanimous in which league supports my opinion that they are close but different. There would be no debate if it were suggested that the EPL is better than top flight Uruguay. THAT is a real example of one league being better than the other.

So anyone who suggests Uruguay is clearly better than MLS (or vice versa) obviously cannot admit their own bias. 

 

Edited by Obinna
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Debating the quality and level of competition in Uruaguay and any of the leagues  our national team players compete in seems kind of pointless to me. Cavallini could be the top scorer in la Liga but if he can't score in Concacaf what does it matter. We hope that the players doing well at their clubs can come in and do the same with Canada but we know that's not always the case. ie Larin at Gold Cup 2015. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have watched numerous Uruguayan matches on GolTv and this seems to be a misconception that people on this forum have been making - probably from highlight clips. The defenders down there are typically sound positionally and tactically. Might not be as athletic as MLS defenders (size, strength, speed) but have alot more between the ears.

So we should disregard highlight clips?  I get that you can't go only on highlight clips but it really is the easiest way to see defensive breakdowns and I'm consistently seeing comical breakdowns at a rate higher than MLS.  It's true that neither MLS or Uruguay is fantastic defensively but I wouldn't say Uruguayan defenders have a lot more between the ears, there are many stud defenders in MLS that would walk onto the majority of Uruguayan teams and be the best all-around defenders on the team (I'm talking 25+).

 I'm sure when watching the bigger teams in Uruguay you see less of this, but speaking on overall level of the league it's pretty clear that MLS is a higher standard all around.  Of course a club like Nacional or Penarol could challenge for MLS cup but MLS is a parity league.  If you compare for instance two lower table teams like Juventud v Chicago Fire, I think the talent gap leans pretty heavily in Chicago's favour all-around, even if they don't have an impressive team by MLS standards.  

Edited by Keegan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So we should disregard highlight clips?  I get that you can't go only on highlight clips but it really is the easiest way to see defensive breakdowns and I'm consistently seeing comical breakdowns at a rate higher than MLS.  It's true that neither MLS or Uruguay is fantastic defensively but I wouldn't say Uruguayan defenders have a lot more between the ears, there are many stud defenders in MLS that would walk onto the majority of Uruguayan teams and be the best all-around defenders on the team (I'm talking 25+).

 I'm sure when watching the bigger teams in Uruguay you see less of this, but speaking on overall level of the league it's pretty clear that MLS is a higher standard all around.  Of course a club like Nacional or Penarol could challenge for MLS cup but MLS is a parity league.  If you compare for instance two lower table teams like Juventud v Chicago Fire, I think the talent gap leans pretty heavily in Chicago's favour all-around, even if they don't have an impressive team by MLS standards.  

Common sense finally prevails!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Jeffery (and others) who believe the Uruguayan league is better value particular aspects of the game (i.e composure on the ball, individual technique etc.) over other aspects (i.e game speed, individual brilliance etc.). Then, they cherry pick the aspects of the game they like (or view as more important) when arguing that Uruguay is better than MLS.

Of course, there is no debate that the majority of players in Uruguay are better on the ball. There is also no debate that the pace of MLS is quicker and the elite players in MLS pull off the extraordinary more often than their Uruguayan counterparts. This has only been pointing out the obvious - not providing evidence that one league is superior. Just wanted to make that clear.

The fact that we are not unanimous in which league supports my opinion that they are close but different. There would be no debate if it were suggested that the EPL is better than top flight Uruguay. THAT is a real example of one league being better than the other.

So anyone who suggests Uruguay is clearly better than MLS (or vice versa) obviously cannot admit their own bias. 

 

If you read my posts, carefully or not, you will not find anywhere where I say the Uruguay league is better than MLS, outright. And in fact I agree with you, close but different.

But that is not the debate here, the whole argument is whether being in Uruguay means your play or goals are worth less than in MLS. Some are on here dissing Uruguay, as a way of also suggesting we should not go ape-shit over Cavallini. And others are saying that is not fair, if we are trying to evaluate the relative quality of the player, then we should give Uruguay a bit more respect. 

As I posted above, it does seem that young players go straight from the Uruguay league to Spanish top flight, arguably the best league in the world. Young players in MLS do not. Not even one. So you tell me.  

Edited by Unnamed Trialist
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So we should disregard highlight clips?  I get that you can't go only on highlight clips but it really is the easiest way to see defensive breakdowns and I'm consistently seeing comical breakdowns at a rate higher than MLS.  It's true that neither MLS or Uruguay is fantastic defensively but I wouldn't say Uruguayan defenders have a lot more between the ears, there are many stud defenders in MLS that would walk onto the majority of Uruguayan teams and be the best all-around defenders on the team (I'm talking 25+).

 I'm sure when watching the bigger teams in Uruguay you see less of this, but speaking on overall level of the league it's pretty clear that MLS is a higher standard all around.  Of course a club like Nacional or Penarol could challenge for MLS cup but MLS is a parity league.  If you compare for instance two lower table teams like Juventud v Chicago Fire, I think the talent gap leans pretty heavily in Chicago's favour all-around, even if they don't have an impressive team by MLS standards.  

Now remember what you said, you said the defending in Uruguay is "much worse". It is not. Highlight clips will show you the mistakes made leading to goals, which is how a lot (most) goals are scored around the world. If you watched a video of MLS goals this season you would likely see a bunch of mistakes, maybe not all comical blunders, but definitely lots of subtle, basic positioning, etc. You see a few goal mouth scrambles in a clip that lead to goals in Uruguay and all of a sudden people are talking about it being worse than USL defending, but they miss all the tight marking that occurred in the other 89+ minutes, strong tackles, 1v1 battles won etc.

It's not just Nacional and Penarol in that league, there are a few other teams that are MLS calibre and the drop off after that is not huge or else you'd be seeing blowouts all the time and that just does not happen very often in Uruguay. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since hardly anyone has said anything about his play vs. Ghana, we are still arguing hypothetically about it, as if we've never seen him.

If you think he showed well, then who cares where he plays, it should not matter any more. Ie, we should be debating which of the strikers did best vs. Ghana. 

 

I think both Cavallini and Haber were left up there on their own a little too much in the game. That said, Lucas had a few moments of quality and i would definitely like to see more of him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you read my posts, carefully or not, you will not find anywhere where I say the Uruguay league is better than MLS, outright. And in fact I agree with you, close but different.

But that is not the debate here, the whole argument is whether being in Uruguay means your play or goals are worth less than in MLS. Some are on here dissing Uruguay, as a way of also suggesting we should not go ape-shit over Cavallini. And others are saying that is not fair, if we are trying to evaluate the relative quality of the player, then we should give Uruguay a bit more respect. 

As I posted above, it does seem that young players go straight from the Uruguay league to Spanish top flight, arguably the best league in the world. Young players in MLS do not. Not even one. So you tell me.  

You said you agree with Markham. He believes that the Uruguayan league is better than MLS. He believes the Uruguayan league is much better than MLS. You said you agree with what he is saying about Uruguay. Now you say here that they are close but different? That is not the opinion Markham shared with us.

I must have missed the part about Cavallini's goals having less value than Larin's due to league strength. Certainly I wouldn't say that, but I will point out that he has scored at a better rate than Cavallini, in many different ways than Cavallini, so from that perspective I think Larin's exploits this season are more impressive.

I also think your argument of more players moving to La Liga is cherry picking as well. Of course more players move from Uruguay to Spain. The transition is easier due to style of play and language etc. A fairer comparison would have been to compare that with players moving from MLS to the EPL, as those two leagues have commonalities. Dempsey, Cameron, Johnson, Shea, Howard, Guzman, Yedlin, Henry etc. 

Your argument is just as ridiculous as if I said "um..well...how many players move from Uruguay to the English Premier league"? "Not even one, look how right I am"!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You said you agree with Markham. He believes that the Uruguayan league is better than MLS. He believes the Uruguayan league is much better than MLS. You said you agree with what he is saying about Uruguay. Now you say here that they are close but different? That is not the opinion Markham shared with us.

I must have missed the part about Cavallini's goals having less value than Larin's due to league strength. Certainly I wouldn't say that, but I will point out that he has scored at a better rate than Cavallini, in many different ways than Cavallini, so from that perspective I think Larin's exploits this season are more impressive.

I also think your argument of more players moving to La Liga is cherry picking as well. Of course more players move from Uruguay to Spain. The transition is easier due to style of play and language etc. A fairer comparison would have been to compare that with players moving from MLS to the EPL, as those two leagues have commonalities. Dempsey, Cameron, Johnson, Shea, Howard, Guzman, Yedlin, Henry etc. 

Your argument is just as ridiculous as if I said "um..well...how many players move from Uruguay to the English Premier league"? "Not even one, look how right I am"!

 

Hey Obinna, what exactly is the problem here, I mean, Markham, is that your riding or something?

I have never agreed with Markham, or Ajax, or Pickering , I fucking hate those places.

When you figure that out we can talk about what a mess you are getting into arguing MLS vs Uruguay, it is going to be a bloodbath, like the Chinese stock market.

Uruguayans vs. Americans in EPL, that will be fun too.

Like comparing a league with a game left with one that just started.

 

 

Edited by Unnamed Trialist
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Obinna, what exactly is the problem here, I mean, Markham, is that your riding or something?

I have never agreed with Markham, or Ajax, or Pickering , I fucking hate those places.

When you figure that out we can talk about what a mess you are getting into arguing MLS vs Uruguay, it is going to be a bloodbath, like the Chinese stock market.

Uruguayans vs. Americans in EPL, that will be fun too.

Like comparing a league with a game left with one that just started.

 

 

His name is Macksam, not Markham. You don't need to get immature about such an irrelevant error.

By the way, this is not an argument, this is me pointing out the discrepancies in your posts. 

You made it clear you agree with Macksam, who unequivocally believes Uruguay is much better than MLS - yet a few posts later you say you agree with me that both leagues are close in quality, albeit different in style. Now you are jacked up for an MLS vs Uruguay "argument" ....that you've comically labelled a "blood bath"? 

Just be clear on your position. 

Now, I do love a good debate about soccer, especially when it involves comparing and contrasting the two leagues our hottest strikers play in.

You chose to ignore the Cavallini versus Larin content of my last post (in favour of Ajax, Picking, Markham and other irrelevancies) - so I will try again: Larin exploits are more impressive than Cavallini's. In addition to the fact that his goals show more variety and his strike rate is better, I will now add that he plays in a better league as well. Close in quality, different in style, but better in my opinion. Would you like to counter that?

As for the transfer debate, comparing the number of players moving directly from Uruguay to La Liga versus MLS to the EPL does get us off topic quite a bit - but if you want to use it as evidence that Uruguay is better than MLS, we can take it there. 

Ball's in your court :)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...