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Cynical but willing to hear about alternatives.

1st off though, the Argos are not TFC's problem. Hell, they aren't even the CFL's problem. Unlike maybe some others here I don't (for the sake of argument) think that outside of the initial physiological impact losing the Argo's will have on the CFL that any real harm will befall the league. Seriously. Might bruise the ego of a few Toronto people, but that's it. The CFL will just keep on trucking towards prosperity like they are now. In fact a bit of a "time out" from the league may just be what is needed in fact for the good folks down to decide if there is value in the product. If they don't? Meh...

2nd off. A ground sharing agreement may be an infrastructure boon for the soccer crowd. BMO was built on the cheap, looks like it was built on the cheap, and after 6 years is showing its age in spades when compared to some of the SSS which have followed its arrival into MLS.

3rd and finally, if it isn't footie first at BMO it's nothing at all. That has to be agenda #1. We were here first.

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A few more real world examples to keep an eye on re ground sharing, in this case using the Desso Grassmaster system

11tse48.jpg

I'm under the impression that football is harder on turf than rugby (being more fluid), not sure if that is correct though.

Interesting video

This is the RIB take on determining an artificial for Rugby Union.

http://www.irbplayerwelfare.com/?documentid=67

similar from sports England encompasses Rugby league.

http://www.sportengland.org/media/30651/Selecting-the-right-artificial-surface-Rev2-2010.pdf

Thing to note on Rugby League there is no Maul, Ruck or Scrum manipulation for the Field to contend with, Just hard tackling.

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Also with regards to Rugby League usage, Kingston Communications Stadium in Hull; Hull City AFC and Hull (Rugby League) FC.

Another thing that annoys the Current owner of the Tigers.

Also, Old Trafford is used for the rugby League Playoff weekend (Semi Finals-and Full Final).

Plus Elland Road gets a fair amount of usage when the Sothern Hemisphere Nations come to Town, due to its 40Kplus capacity.

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Looking at bigger picture, city of Toronto might bid on 2024 Summer Olympics. Source: http://www.sportsnet.ca/olympics/report-2024-games-would-cost-t-o-3-7-billion/

Since Toronto doesn't currently have a stadium good enough to host Olympics, this will mean government will fund a new stadium if Toronto ever gets Olympics. So hello to Toronto NFL team? I am sure government isn't going to tear down a new stadium after Olympics, so they will need tenants and make some money off it. CFL or MLS isn't big enough to play in bigger stadium with 50-60K seating capacity, so that leaves NFL.

But one thing is for sure now: this just opens the door for anyone interested in bringing NFL to Toronto now if city of Toronto agrees to bid on Olympics.

If I was Argos, I pray that Toronto doesn't bid on Olympics. Toronto (not Buffalo) NFL team will kill Argos for good.

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MLSE's Leiweke: Taxpayers would be paid back for BMO Field expansion

Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment CEO Tim Leiweke says MLSE would pay “almost all” of the cost of expanding the Toronto FC stadium

Daniel Dale City Hall, thestar.com Jan 19 2014

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DAVID COOPER / TORONTO STAR

BMO Field, at Exhibition Place, could be expanded from its present 20,000 capacity to 30,000 - and up to 40,000 on a temporary basis, as for the Pan Am Games in 2015.

Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment could expand BMO Field in time for the July 2015 Pan Am Games, its chief executive says — but only if MLSE and the government can come to a financial agreement “very” soon.

BMO Field, owned by the city, is home to Major League Soccer team Toronto FC, owned by MLSE. CEO Tim Leiweke, fresh off a splashy $100 million investment in two players, wants to add a partial roof and more seats to a seven-year-old facility that he says has already “fallen behind the rest of the league.”

The $63-million stadium was built with about $45 million in public funds, including $10 million in cash from the city — plus a city donation of land worth $10 million.

Taxpayer funding of sports facilities is perpetually contentious. Leiweke said he believes the renovation agreement “will be a deal that won’t have a lot of controversy to it”: this time, he said, MLSE expects to pay the majority of the costs.

“What we’re trying to figure out is a way to get the renovation done where the majority of the burden, almost all of the burden, falls upon us, the private sector,” Leiweke said in an interview Thursday.

The total, he said, could amount to “twice” the price tag for the original project. He said Toronto taxpayers would probably make some initial payment. But he said MLSE would later return money to the public purse.

“I think if there is any contribution, it’ll be one where they get paid back over a period of time and get a healthy rate of return. So the significant majority portion of this is going to end up being us, and we get that,” he said.

“One of the things the city’s asked for is that we backstop a minimum revenue stream annually that would get their money back, plus some, over the period of the lease. So the city wants certainty. We’re working through that.”

Councillor Michael Thompson, chair of the economic development committee, said the deal under discussion would not come at any final cost to the city.

“It would net itself out. If you invested $10, at some point you’ll get the $10 back,” plus a return, Thompson said. He argued the investment would be an economic boon to the city, generating hotel stays, retail sales and other activity.

Leiweke said the project could be done in phases. The first phase would improve the concourses and increase the permanent seating capacity from about 22,000 to 30,000. The second phase, which could be completed in 2016, would build a roof over the seating area.

Leiweke said the renovation would allow for a temporary capacity of 40,000 for a major event like the NHL’s Winter Classic. To the chagrin of many TFC supporters, it would also position BMO Field as a potential home for the CFL’s Toronto Argonauts, who are not owned by MLSE.

“We are looking for a new home for our football team, and renovated BMO Field could be a great location for the Argos in the future,” said team spokesman Eric Holmes. “At this point, however, it is premature to say we will be there.”

Leiweke said the renovation is “not about us ultimately owning the Argos and putting them in there.” He then, immediately, made clear that the Argos are part of the equation.

“I think trying to find a solution so that there’s not another need, in another day, for a CFL stadium, is certainly something that has been raised,” he said.

The project may be more imminent than previously understood. Government officials, Leiweke said, have asked if the first phase could be completed in time for the Pan Ams. He said that is possible only if construction begins this summer. City council would have to approve the project within months.

“We understand that part of what they’re asking out of us is if they can have some upside on seating capacity for the Rugby Sevens competition that will take place during the Pan Am Games, and thus an economic benefit to the Pan Am Games, and a stadium that looks great in the eyes of the world,” Leiweke said.

Any BMO deal is likely to involve other levels of government. Jasmine Gill, a spokesman for provincial Tourism, Culture and Sport minister Michael Chan, said the province has not yet received any request for money but is “always open to exploring opportunities that will enhance Ontario’s profile as a premier destination for sporting events.”

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As a long time CFL and Tiger-Cat fan, I'm going to weigh in from a CFL fan first perspective. First off, the Argos need to get out of the Rogers Centre. Not only because Rogers is basically kicking them out with the grass conversion for the Jays, but also because that venue is terrible for their game but also because the landlord seems to be doing less then zero for the team. The fact that there isn't a single banner around the Rogers Centre supporting the Argos, but plenty supporting the Bills, speaks volumes. If you want to talk about killing the game day experience, the Rogers Centre does exactly that. The place is a morgue, the seating excessive for CFL Football, the sight lines are awful, the security is excessively zealous, and the team can't even keep it's Grey Cup banners up during MLB games. That's apart from the consistent smear campaign Sportsnet seems to have for the CFL, and how around Grey Cup time, some bogus NFL in Toronto rumour comes up.

If that means going to BMO, if that means building a new at Lamport or at some other site, it needs to happen if there is an interest in preserving North America's second oldest (The Ti-Cats are the oldest, who cares if they merged with other teams!) sports franchise. If that option is BMO and it involves massively upgrading the facility for both franchises, I can't help but see it as a positive, even if it slightly detracts from the pitch.

Which will happen if it does go through, and I fully acknowledge it will. Yes even with a change to Desso Grassmaster or if they keep in grass, the pitch will suffer, even with the most constructive scheduling, which seems completely feasible given that BMO isn't exactly booked up, the MLS season starts in March and runs to October with the CFL season not starting until July and ending in November and opposing weekly home/away schedules would appear to be in the best interests of both team's ability to draw fans any ways. That being said, I doubt it is going to get to the point of low quality field turf and I would expect it to be somewhere between BC Place Turf and dedicated grass. From a CFL's fan perspective, most don't see it as a big deal. It's not perfect for soccer, but lets face it, there's lot of stuff that isn't perfect for soccer in North America, but it needs to happen to make progress. I'm sure a TFC fan sees it differently, which is fine, but to me having the grass be somewhat effected is a worthwhile compromise if a BMO renovation that brings the Argos to the stadium involves, potentially a roof, expanding the amenities, expanding the stadium for larger events/allowing temp seating and exposing Canadian Football fans to TFC branding and vice versa. That's really the core issue, I just don't see MLSE upgrading the facility completely on their own dime, and I don't see them getting public money, unless they can prove they have more events/another tenant who has a long history in Canada.

Next, CFL fans have a very different perspective on how BMO went down. That basically the Argos tried several times to buy in, and MLSE basically wouldn't return their calls, wouldn't let them in or get involved and basically stonewalled them. Now MLSE says that the Argos were too late to the gate when they showed interest. I'm sure the truth falls somewhere in between, but that's just a lot of CFL fans perspective on the matter.

Next, as a Hamiltonian, nothing grates on my nerves then Toronto pretending like it's the only city in Canada. This talk of BMO being the Canadian national stadium is BS and honestly isn't fair to the rest of Canada that they only seem to play in Toronto. If IIHF hockey did that, there would be outrage. If soccer continues to grow, it's only a matter of time before we see them play at a different venue. BC Place is a massive venue with plenty of room to host an international match, Saputo is in the same boat and now with Ottawa Fury FC and Tim Horton's Field in Hamilton being the Pan-Am soccer venue, it's going to happen. Same goes for the Canadian Rugby team if they continue to grow.

In regards to TV Ratings, like it or hate it, the CFL isn't drawing peanuts in TV numbers. It's drawing numbers close to, if not occasionally greater then Hockey. This isn't a rip on MLS's ratings, it's just clearing the air on the matter. Gridiron Football CFL or NFL is the #2 sport in our country and they typically go neck and neck in the ratings, except for the Super Bowl obviously.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh-game/great-canadian-ratings-report-cfl-knocks-off-hockey-220529504.html

http://cfl.ca/article/cfl-on-tsn-and-rds-a-ratings-winner

Really, I think the main reason the Argos don't fill the stands and get the attention they deserve, is because the atmosphere is toxic in the Rogers Centre and there is a lot of toxic media being spewed in Toronto to knock on the CFL by Rogers, because the CFL's exclusive deal with TSN. I don't know if MLS has experienced the same problems, but would make sense if they have doen that given Rogers pushing Sportsnet world.

Anyways, that's just my two cents. Not trying to be disrespectful in any way, but the Argos need out of the Rogers Centre. I think moving to BMO would offer a net benefit to both teams, but I'm sure other people don't see it that way.

Edited by -Hammer-
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The reason why this is an issue because BMO field is too small for CFL. So order to accommodate Argos they have move stands back and make room for them. Plus, turf is another issue (grass and football lines during soccer games). Unlike other markets, Toronto soccer fans wouldn't take crap like that. This is why it's an issue for soccer fans in Toronto. The reason why MLSE wants Argos because they want taxpayer money to help rebuild BMO field and to own a NFL team in the long haul. Since NFL needs CFL for legal reasons (anti-trust laws), NFL wouldn't want to see Argos fold.

Too bad people outside of GTA don't understand Toronto market on here.

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The reason why this is an issue because BMO field is too small for CFL. So order to accommodate Argos they have move stands back and make room for them. Plus, turf is another issue (grass and football lines during soccer games). Unlike other markets, Toronto soccer fans wouldn't take crap like that. This is why it's an issue for soccer fans in Toronto. The reason why MLSE wants Argos because they want taxpayer money to help rebuild BMO field and to own a NFL team in the long haul. Since NFL needs CFL for legal reasons (anti-trust laws), NFL wouldn't want to see Argos fold.

Too bad people outside of GTA don't understand Toronto market on here.

As far as the size, yes...they would, although MLSE has made it clear, they won't install the seats if they can't be moved to ensure fans aren't kept too distanced from the pitch. If you believe them or not, that's another story.

I already discussed the turf/grass in my previous post. I feel if it means getting a massive reno/improvements to the facility it's an acceptable compromise to make for a net beneft, but I acknowledge, to some that is not acceptable. I guess all I can say to that is, you'd have to weigh the improvements that would come as a result (which I will openly admit, are not clear) to the state of the pitch. It's a different judgement call for everyone. As far as the lines, I'm not convinced that you can't wipe and remake the lines between games, espcially in the span of a week, which I would assume would be the schedualling goal.

As far as why MLSE want's to buy the Argos, the CFL just got a new TV deal which is making solid money. Pretty much that deal ensures that all the teams will now be making money. Apart from that, it better leverages their investment in BMO and they can buy the team for cheap, and if they can turn it around (something with MLSE has decades of experience with) and get the team drawing a consistent 20,000 a game, they can make a very good profit on that investment with the occasional large windfall from hosting a Grey Cup.

As far as an NFL team...I don't even fell that is in the equation. An NFL team is a minimum 2 Billion dollar investment as you need a new stadium, and a team. That's a huge investment to leverage, in a market that doesn't consistently sell out the Sky Dome when the Bills come to town. The NFL doesn't allow corporate ownership, so MLSE is barking up the wrong tree there as well. Moving a team to Toronto is just moving the furninture to the NFL as it does nothing to expand the TV revenue and is a HUGE political concern in the US. You try to move any NFL team out of a State and you are going to have congressmen and governors breatheing down your neck and the NFL does not want to do anything that could endanger it's anti-trust exemptions that the US government allows. The only way you can sell an NFL team in Toronto is with a big expansion fee for the owners and the fact that it's in a new country. However for that kind of investment, for what has been lukewarm support for the Bills series and has shown poor support for the CFL (a league the NFL had made clear, doesn't want to harm and has a good relationship with) doesn't strike me as enough to convince the NFL, espcially when you have LA waiting in the wings for a team and three stadiums that can accomodate them another solid market with a stadium already built in San Antonio.

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Hammer nailed this one in the first post of the thread. I have to shake my head at some of bonehead TFC supporters.

Oskie Wee Wee brother!

While I appreciate the support, lets not resort to namecalling. Football fans, regardless of code benefit as a whole when they work together, far more then when they hate on one another.

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As far as the size, yes...they would, although MLSE has made it clear, they won't install the seats if they can't be moved to ensure fans aren't kept too distanced from the pitch. If you believe them or not, that's another story.

I already discussed the turf/grass in my previous post. I feel if it means getting a massive reno/improvements to the facility it's an acceptable compromise to make for a net beneft, but I acknowledge, to some that is not acceptable. I guess all I can say to that is, you'd have to weigh the improvements that would come as a result (which I will openly admit, are not clear) to the state of the pitch. It's a different judgement call for everyone. As far as the lines, I'm not convinced that you can't wipe and remake the lines between games, espcially in the span of a week, which I would assume would be the schedualling goal.

So it's unclear at this point. Scheduling is an issue because TFC plays a lot during the summer and plus there's another events (Canadian soccer and rugby games) going on during summer time. If TFC qualifies for CCL, then it means more home games. What if TFC makes it to the playoffs?

How are you going to fit in Argos while maintain grass enough well for soccer?

As far as why MLSE want's to buy the Argos, the CFL just got a new TV deal which is making solid money. Pretty much that deal ensures that all the teams will now be making money. Apart from that, it better leverages their investment in BMO and they can buy the team for cheap, and if they can turn it around (something with MLSE has decades of experience with) and get the team drawing a consistent 20,000 a game, they can make a very good profit on that investment with the occasional large windfall from hosting a Grey Cup.

But salary cap is going up so TV money isn't going to be a big deal. Also, CFL teams get most of their revenue from gate sales not TV money.

As far as an NFL team...I don't even fell that is in the equation. An NFL team is a minimum 2 Billion dollar investment as you need a new stadium, and a team. That's a huge investment to leverage, in a market that doesn't consistently sell out the Sky Dome when the Bills come to town. The NFL doesn't allow corporate ownership, so MLSE is barking up the wrong tree there as well. Moving a team to Toronto is just moving the furninture to the NFL as it does nothing to expand the TV revenue and is a HUGE political concern in the US. You try to move any NFL team out of a State and you are going to have congressmen and governors breatheing down your neck and the NFL does not want to do anything that could endanger it's anti-trust exemptions that the US government allows. The only way you can sell an NFL team in Toronto is with a big expansion fee for the owners and the fact that it's in a new country. However for that kind of investment, for what has been lukewarm support for the Bills series and has shown poor support for the CFL (a league the NFL had made clear, doesn't want to harm and has a good relationship with) doesn't strike me as enough to convince the NFL, espcially when you have LA waiting in the wings for a team and three stadiums that can accomodate them another solid market with a stadium already built in San Antonio.

NFL only cares about money and stadium (there's rumours that NFL is interested having a team in London, UK). If you build a stadium for NFL standards, then NFL will come. Bills are in dying market where they're struggling to keep up with rest of NFL teams while Bills owner (Wilson family) is going to sale the team since owing a team in Buffalo is too costly for them. Moving to Toronto is alternative that all parties can win (short drive for people in western New York while NFL expands outside their borders). I highly doubt US government is going to get in NFL ways to make more money.

NFL is trying to grow internationally now so it makes sense Toronto is first market they want to look at. L.A. would have a NFL team if they can get a stadium that meets NFL standards.

Right now, rumours of Bon Jovi or Edward Rogers owning a Toronto NFL with backing of MLSE is how they'll get around NFL ownership rule.

Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/livin-on-a-prayer-buying-bills-building-new-toronto-stadium-would-be-a-2-billion-play/article15581107/

Edited by TFC07
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sorry, but i really don't see the NFL expanding to Toronto. it doesn't help their TV ratings in the US (ours are peanuts compared)

why would they put a team in Toronto before a team in LA? or San Antonio? heck even Omaha.

NFL is close to maxing out in USA, they're looking for new ways to make more money. They want NFL to become popular all over the world not just in USA. They want big TV contracts and more merchandise sold all over the world! Canadian NFL TV rights fee will increase if Toronto ever gets NFL team which we all know will be a huge hit. Toronto NFL team will bring more money to the league than Buffalo Bills! It's no brainer in terms of making money from NFL POV.

L.A. needs a stadium and investors if they want a NFL team. Toronto same thing, but they do have people who interested and willing to bring NFL to Toronto. It's all about money in the end. Show them the money, they will welcome you. It's pretty simple! I don't understand how posters on here and CFL fans fail to see that.

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So it's unclear at this point. Scheduling is an issue because TFC plays a lot during the summer and plus there's another events (Canadian soccer and rugby games) going on during summer time. If TFC qualifies for CCL, then it means more home games. What if TFC makes it to the playoffs?

The point is that TFC plays for three months before the CFL season starts, and the Argos play 9 games. Rugby will have next to zero effect as far as the Argos are concerned, so I personally can't see it, in anyway as unreasonable to see a TFC game on Saturday, Argos game on Sunday, pitch recovery till next Saturday situation occuring, or even a TFC plays at home while the Argos are away and vice versa. If TFC makes the playoffs, same situation, save only that the Argos would obviously not bottom load their scheduale. Also to the original point of this article, the Canadian National team might also consider <gasp> playing outside of Toronto once in a while, like Saputo, or BC Place, or TD Place or Tim Horton's Field (like they will be during the Pan-Am's, hope to see you guys there).

How are you going to fit in Argos while maintain grass enough well for soccer?

With schedualling, as stated and admitted it will cause some issues with the pitch, but I wouldn't expect it to reach the point of unplayability. If you can somehow manage to do it with Rugby, you can do it for CFL Football.

But salary cap is going up so TV money isn't going to be a big deal. Also, CFL teams get most of their revenue from gate sales not TV money.

Except as stated, the CFL just renewed a VERY lucrative television deal with TSN and is posting ratings that are rivaling Hockey in our country. CFL TV revenue isn't peanuts and even with the cap going up, it's still a net gain. You are right though, the CFL like most leagues except for the NFL and the European soccer leagues, is predominantly gate driven. It's the one area the Argos need to improve upon, and the only way that can be done is getting out of a toxic venue in the Rogers Centre.

NFL only cares about money and stadium (there's rumours that NFL is interested having a team in London, UK). If you build a stadium for NFL standards, then NFL will come. Bills are in dying market where they're struggling to keep up with rest of NFL teams while Bills owner (Wilson family) is going to sale the team since owing a team in Buffalo is too costly for them. Moving to Toronto is alternative that all parties can win (short drive for people in western New York while NFL expands outside their borders). I highly doubt US government is going to get in NFL ways to make more money.

No, the NFL also cares about it's image. It's why they've taken great pains with the concussion protocol. It's why they very abruptly caved into their officials strike a couple years back and hire full time refs. It's why they try to put teams in markets that can show and express long term interest in their game. However, moving to your other arguements, the stadium right now is a non-starter for Toronto.

The Rogers Centre isn't big enough, as is showing it's age and with Grass comming to the Rogers Centre it causes severe schedualling issues with the end of the MLB season. So building a new stadium comes with a 1 billion dollar price tag which even MLSE would give pause to, espcially when we accept they would also have to also purchase an expansion franchise. Next, as far as money what revenue is to be had in Toronto that you wouldn't gain in LA who has 2 stadiums of suitable size and is building a 3rd, or San Antonio who also has a suitable stadium already built? Also why the heck would the NFL think the gate revenue in Toronto is worth it, when the Bills in Toronto series isn't filling the much smaller Rogers Centre? Even more so when the last exhibition games in San Antonio drew in crowds of 60,000+ (larger then the RC) to see the Lions & Saints, teams with no local connection to the city.

The TV reneuve? How does a NFL team in Toronto in any way expand the TV revenue? The NFL/CFL already pull in the 2nd highest sports revenue in Canada next to Hockey. I just can't see how a team in Toronto in any way changes that. I also can't see how putting a team and potentially hurting the only other league I can effectively farm players on make sense, when I have vastly superior markets.

NFL is trying to grow internationally now so it makes sense Toronto is first market they want to look at. L.A. would have a NFL team if they can get a stadium that meets NFL standards.

That is about the only talking point you can sell the NFL on. As far as LA, they have two already of suitable size in the Rose Bowl, LA memorial and the new 70,000+ seater they approved building in 2012. San Antonia also has the almaodome and plays in a state where they build 25,000 seat stadiums for highschool Football. That's a market you want in on and is sold on your game.

Right now, rumours of Bon Jovi or Edward Rogers owning a Toronto NFL with backing of MLSE is how they'll get around NFL ownership rule.

Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/livin-on-a-prayer-buying-bills-building-new-toronto-stadium-would-be-a-2-billion-play/article15581107/

Except he's refuted, at least to Bills purchase of that story. Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2513769/Jon-Bon-Jovis-publicist-refutes-speculation-rockers-buying-Buffalo-Bills.html

However, thank you for confirming my figure of 2 billion, which then becomes the elephant in the room. MLSE isn't in the sports business for fun like some owners. They are in the game to make money. Yes, the NFL TV deals are lucrative, but it's only around $118 million per year per team (less if you add another team splitting the pot further). Leverage that against 2 Billion dollars, that's not a good margin to work with. That's 17 years to pay off your stadium without interest involved. Yes there is gate revenue as well, but there are also expenses you have to deal with. It's not a good margin, and it's potentially disaterous if the gate dips.

Edited by -Hammer-
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Show them the money, they will welcome you. It's pretty simple! I don't understand how posters on here and CFL fans fail to see that.
And I don't understand how you haven't done your due diligence and found out that the NFL ownership is an exclusive club that doesn't let just anybody in. They're not like MLS from a few years ago where if you had the money you got in.

You might also want to check out former MLSE honcho Richard Peddie's thoughts on the NFL. You're looking at a 2 billion dollar investment and a long wait for a return. The people making the real money in the NFL are the owners who've had their franchises for eons not the new kids on the block. According to Peddie there are bean counters at MLSE who aren't sold that the NFL is a worthwhile cause for the huge initial investment.

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The point is that TFC plays for three months before the CFL season starts, and the Argos play 9 games. Rugby will have next to zero effect as far as the Argos are concerned, so I personally can't see it, in anyway as unreasonable to see a TFC game on Saturday, Argos game on Sunday, pitch recovery till next Saturday situation occuring, or even a TFC plays at home while the Argos are away and vice versa. If TFC makes the playoffs, same situation, save only that the Argos would obviously not bottom load their scheduale. Also to the original point of this article, the Canadian National team might also consider <gasp> playing outside of Toronto once in a while, like Saputo, or BC Place, or TD Place or Tim Horton's Field (like they will be during the Pan-Am's, hope to see you guys there).

What about preseason and playoffs for Argos? Don't forget Canada national team (either men or women team) is requirement to play a game at BMO field once a year or even more games depending how many seats they sell as part of BMO field agreement with city of Toronto/MLSE. Rugby Canada national team will play a game or two. Not sure if there's some sort of agreement they have with MLSE/Toronto like CSA, but they been playing their games at BMO field recently.

With schedualling, as stated and admitted it will cause some issues with the pitch, but I wouldn't expect it to reach the point of unplayability. If you can somehow manage to do it with Rugby, you can do it for CFL Football.

If you look at TFC schedule this year, it's heavily packed during the summer time (due to fan request). They're barely going to play at home first couple of months at BMO field. Also, grass takes a while to recover especially in colder and raining conditions. There's no guarantee turf wouldn't be affected at all. Rugby games are played only couple of times (at most) per year which isn't going to harm turf.

Except as stated, the CFL just renewed a VERY lucrative television deal with TSN and is posting ratings that are rivaling Hockey in our country. CFL TV revenue isn't peanuts and even with the cap going up, it's still a net gain. You are right though, the CFL like most leagues except for the NFL and the European soccer leagues, is predominantly gate driven. It's the one area the Argos need to improve upon, and the only way that can be done is getting out of a toxic venue in the Rogers Centre.

$4 million per year ($40 million for 10 teams = $4million) isn't that great. Current salary in CFL is about $4.4 million,but it will probably go north of $5 million at least when it's all said and done. So TV money alone isn't going to cover all expenses.

Sure a lot of smaller European leagues don't have large TV contracts, but they do make a lot of their money by selling their players to richer clubs. Bigger leagues like EPL make their money from TV contracts (billions of pounds).

No, the NFL also cares about it's image. It's why they've taken great pains with the concussion protocol. It's why they very abruptly caved into their officials strike a couple years back and hire full time refs. It's why they try to put teams in markets that can show and express long term interest in their game. However, moving to your other arguements, the stadium right now is a non-starter for Toronto.

The Rogers Centre isn't big enough, as is showing it's age and with Grass comming to the Rogers Centre it causes severe schedualling issues with the end of the MLB season. So building a new stadium comes with a 1 billion dollar price tag which even MLSE would give pause to, espcially when we accept they would also have to also purchase an expansion franchise. Next, as far as money what revenue is to be had in Toronto that you wouldn't gain in LA who has 2 stadiums of suitable size and is building a 3rd, or San Antonio who also has a suitable stadium already built? Also why the heck would the NFL think the gate revenue in Toronto is worth it, when the Bills in Toronto series isn't filling the much smaller Rogers Centre? Even more so when the last exhibition games in San Antonio drew in crowds of 60,000+ (larger then the RC) to see the Lions & Saints, teams with no local connection to the city.

Rogers Centre thing was a joke. Of course people from Toronto aren't going to support BUFFALO Bills. If you rebrand the team and make it a Toronto's team, then people would come.

FYI: Rogers Centre technically has over 50,000 seating capacity to host football games. So Rogers Centre does fit requirement in terms of seating capacity to host NFL games.

How many investors are lining up in LA or San Antonio? Toronto already has investors willing to move Bills (who are going to be on sale once Ralph is gone) and move them to Toronto. Buffalo is one of the worst teams in terms profit in the league. They can't even sell out games anymore! So why would NFL want to stay in Buffalo instead of moving up north where there's a better chance of making money and selling out games in one of biggest markets in North America?

The TV reneuve? How does a NFL team in Toronto in any way expand the TV revenue? The NFL/CFL already pull in the 2nd highest sports revenue in Canada next to Hockey. I just can't see how a team in Toronto in any way changes that. I also can't see how putting a team and potentially hurting the only other league I can effectively farm players on make sense, when I have vastly superior markets.

You're kidding right? Are you saying that Toronto team wouldn't increase TV ratings and complete against NHL/Toronto Maple Leafs ratings in Canada? NFL hasn't reached to it's potential in Canada yet. Also you're ignoring NFL agenda to becoming more international brand.

That is about the only talking point you can sell the NFL on. As far as LA, they have two already of suitable size in the Rose Bowl, LA memorial and the new 70,000+ seater they approved building in 2012. San Antonia also has the almaodome and plays in a state where they build 25,000 seat stadiums for highschool Football. That's a market you want in on and is sold on your game.

Well if someone stepped up bought a team and move them to L.A., then NFL wouldn't have any problems with that. Who cares about San Antonio! Toronto is bigger market (one of biggest market in North America) than San Antonio.

Of course he will denied it to media, but it doesn't mean Bon Jovi isn't interested of owning a team. Oh btw: he was spotted sitting with Robert Kraft at AFC championship game. If you don't know, Robert Kraft is chairman of NFL committee who approvals on these things like relocation etc..

However, thank you for confirming my figure of 2 billion, which then becomes the elephant in the room. MLSE isn't in the sports business for fun like some owners. They are in the game to make money. Yes, the NFL TV deals are lucrative, but it's only around $118 million per year per team (less if you add another team splitting the pot further). Leverage that against 2 Billion dollars, that's not a good margin to work with. That's 17 years to pay off your stadium without interest involved. Yes there is gate revenue as well, but there are also expenses you have to deal with. It's not a good margin, and it's potentially disaterous if the gate dips.

There's no debate over $2 billion figure, but you're not factoring in gate sales, sponsorship and merchandise that comes into play. Money can be made in the long term if whoever brings NFL to Toronto does it right.

However, Rogers Centre does fit criteria to host NFL games. (50,000 seating requirement).

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And I don't understand how you haven't done your due diligence and found out that the NFL ownership is an exclusive club that doesn't let just anybody in. They're not like MLS from a few years ago where if you had the money you got in.

You might also want to check out former MLSE honcho Richard Peddie's thoughts on the NFL. You're looking at a 2 billion dollar investment and a long wait for a return. The people making the real money in the NFL are the owners who've had their franchises for eons not the new kids on the block. According to Peddie there are bean counters at MLSE who aren't sold that the NFL is a worthwhile cause for the huge initial investment.

Chargers President Dean Spanos:

“The long-term goal is to globalize our sport,” Spanos said. “And putting our best product on the field internationally . . . showcases our game and what it's all about.”

Spanos said it is possible that within five or 10 years, the league will have franchises outside the United States.

Source: http://www.utsandiego.com/sports/chargers/20080127-9999-1s27chargers.html

I think you need to do a little research to understand why NFL wants to grow it's product overseas and even have teams outside of USA. Toronto, London and even Mexico City have been mention in the past who can potentially have a NFL team.

Old boys club doesn't mean much if they can make more money in the end.

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I still hope the Argos stay out of BMO, I'm a soccer fan I'm not a CFL football fan could care less if the Argos folded for all I care, have been a soccer fan all my life born and raised here in Canada and I love the fact that my hometown has a pro soccer team that plays in a stadium that they are the main tenants, in a stadium that was built for soccer. If someone had told me say 20 years ago that we would have a pro soccer team in Toronto playing out of a stadium that was mainly built for them and soccer in general I would have never believed them. I want BMO field to remain a stadium that people mainly associate with TFC and soccer just like Saputo stadium is associated with the Impact and soccer. Sure BMO can host the occasional Rugby event and other sporting events but I want it to remain mainly a soccer stadium and the home of TFC. I want to be able to walk in the stadium and see the walls dominated by TFC logos and colors and pictures like it is now, I want it to remain grass and nothing else. I'm a soccer fan and I'm on a soccer message board so I should be able to want all this, without having to debate with fans of another sport I don't give a damn about on why their sport's team should be moving into BMO, I don't care I hope this sport stays out and finds another home. I'm a soccer fan on a soccer message board I'm allowed to feel this way!

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