Loss of the National Football Stadium

[RS]

What does the proximity of the CNE grounds and the National Soccer Stadium have to do with viability of Lamport upgraded to handle more seats ?

It's simple: Why would the three level of governments choose to pour tens of millions into decades-old, run-down Lamport Stadium rather than doing the same at BMO Field just down the street?

Especially when BMO Field would be a much easier upgrade, in a public space suited for a bigger stadium?

Lamport sits very close to a massive residential area, and is completely surrounded by active businesses. The road network around it is minuscule and cannot handle much more development, and the footprint to expand is tiny.

Contrast that to where BMO Field sits. It's on a massive public space well-served by major roads, better streetcar access, etc. Despite their proximity, BMO Field and the CNE grounds hold the massive advantage of being designed to hold very large crowds. Liberty Village (where Lamport sits), does not.

If Montreal upped the Molson stadium to 25 k from 20K on a much more difficult site, why would modification and addition of seats from 9600 to 20k at Lamport be such a big issue.

Because upgrading a stadium that's already CFL-calibre from 20k to 25k is nothing compared to upgrading what is essentially a public park from 9600 to 20k. Why is this even a question?

The CFL fleid has 40 yards of end zones, based on a 36 inch seat that gives you on each side of the field lengthening ... 20 seats per row added X 30 rows is 1200 extra seats, then the south end zone at 75 yards wide give you 75 seats a row X 30 = 2,250 so you are up to 3,450 on top of 9,600 brings you to 13, 150 seats before adding seating on west side or east side of stadia, 110 yards length X 10 rows gives 1100 seats add 30 rows on west side and you have another 3300 seats , now your at 16,450 .... check out the number of rows at the National soccer stadium on the west its 19 + 27 in upper deck for 46 rows.

Huh? I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.

You introduced a term Rudi... "trying to exude an air of professionalism" ... a professional club would have business case that would let it build a stadium from its own resources, the Argos situation is they have no home some four years down the road and they need a saviour and it is not likely to be a move to the CNE grouds to play in the National Soccer Stadium unless MLSE really wants to alienate its core fan base.

I agree, the Argos have never exuded professionalism when it comes to their home stadium situation. If MLSE were to buy the Argos, it would become a top prioirty almost instantly.

Remember the city of Toronto owns Cenntenial stadium in Centenial park.. near Pearson airport lots of land, yes you would need to spend 50 million to 75 million for a stadia much like Saputo in Montreal but you only have eight home games a year for CFL football in a nine team league with a balanced schedule, the Argos have options that if they have to use civic, provincial and federal monies ... make more overall sense to the broader sporting community then ripping up a Soccer Specifc Stadium to make it mulit-use.

That's a huge assumption. The governments could just as easily tell the Argos that the public purse for a new stadium is closed.

But Rudi if your in favour of Argos ground sharing with TFC why not come out and say that .. your willing to see the Argos move to the CNE site and play on the same turf as TFC.

Just because I can deal within logic rather than pie-in-the-sky schemes, that doesn't mean I'm in favour of anything.

You jumped to massive conclusions based on my response to your Lamport pipe dream. Please stop doing that.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Just because I can deal within logic rather than pie-in-the-sky schemes, that doesn't mean I'm in favour of anything. You jumped to massive conclusions based on my response to your Lamport pipe dream. Please stop doing that.

That's the problem with these soccer zealot guys like Trillium, they can't deal with reality.

I think I can speak for Rudi and almost everybody else here, no one wants the Argos to go to BMO. And that includes me and probably the Argos as well. The problem is, it seems to be the only viable solution available right now. I suppose there might be some who would want the Argos to go to BMO if it would provide the necessary upgrades to make BMO a top notch facility but that of course comes at a price, and I don't mean financial.

Trillium, it looks like you've googled a few things and have hastily come to the conclusion that Lamport would be satisfactory. As you may or may not know, well I guess you do know because you posted there a few days ago, I have a long running thread called New Canadian stadiums, plug, plug.

I have probably read more stuff about the possibility of expanding Lamport than anybody. I still don't know if it is possible. It's not comparable to Montreal and if it was possible it is a very tight squeeze. Here is a post from someone at the skyscraper stadium forum who gave an explanation and took some photos showing a first hand experience.

Thought I would include this photo and caption

The trees in the right of this picture are actually on somebody's lawn. The west grandstand cannot be expanded.

[TFC07]

This post is a joke...

First off, the 2012 Grey Cup was not an all-star event. It was the 100th championship game of the only professional sporting league solely based in Canada. The CFL does not have an all-star game, nor does it ask for money for every Grey Cup. The reason they asked for money was to promote the game nation wide.

http://blogs.leaderpost.com/2011/03/23/cfl-media-statement-regarding-federal-funding/

No, they asked money because they wanted to make money for Argos. Don't buy the lie. I use MLS All-star as an example because it's more a weekend sporting event than MLS cup where there's a lot of things going on besides the game (like concerts for an example).

Second, Grey Cups regularly generate over $100 million in economic activity each year in the cities they are held in, and this is no different in 2012. for the $5 million shelled out by the Feds and $4.5 million shelled out by the Ontario government, it created $133 million in gross activity, and $70 million in net activity for the province, including 795 jobs. This, from the City of Toronto website itself:

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2013/ed/bgrd/backgroundfile-58473.pdf

That's great. But with kind of revenue they're making, there is no need for tax dollars being used to fund a corporate event.

The 2013 Grey Cup brought in an estimated $123 million, the 2011 Grey Cup brought in an estimated $118 million, and the 2009 Grey Cup brought in an estimated $80 million.

How much does a national men's soccer team game bring in to Toronto's economy? I'm sure it's far less than $100 million....

Well when the last time we played big soccer game or had major soccer event in Toronto? Better example would be Argos and how much money they contribute to local economy. Grey Cup is an event not just a game where there's tons of things going on. So your comparison doesn't make any sense.

I know folks here are upset about the Argos potentially moving into BMO field, but let's face the facts here. The CFL, and it's teams, has a much greater cultural signifance to this country than either the men's national team, or any of the 5 professional teams in the country right now. If national team games at BMO had been consistently sold out since it was built, then there could be an argument to "save the national football stadium", but they aren't.

If the city of Toronto wants to allow MLSE to buy the Argos, and rip up BMO, and let them play there, then so be it. If the Argos leave, that's $100 million+ in economic impact that is lost to the City / Province each Grey Cup...

No, you need to understand that Toronto is different situation where CFL doesn't have much pull. City of Toronto isn't going to spend a dime and already have made their money. BMO field is profitable to City of Toronto already.

Grey Cup isn't played every year in Toronto, so this loss isn't a big deal in the end. Not hosting once in a decade event isn't going to kill local economy.

[TFC07]

If Argos and CFL are so profitable to Toronto, then how come they can't get their own stadium or threaten Toronto to contribute money to their stadium?

Reality is no one really cares about Argos despite being winning team who have recently won Grey Cup. I find it funny how people outside of GTA are defending Argos (rare to find someone from Toronto defending Argos) and act like soccer isn't more popular than CFL in Toronto.

[Joe MacCarthy]

No, they asked money because they wanted to make money for Argos. Don't buy the lie.

Nice try grasping at straws. They asked for the money because it was a one time Canadian cultural event (100th anniversary) and they wanted to celebrate it. If the truth be told I don't think the CFL was expecting to get as much government money as they did but luckily for them the governments were sympatico and thought it was a good idea as well. A lot of that money went to the cross-Canada promotional train (as I posted earlier)

You already had the breakdown posted from where much of the revenues came from. If you want to ignore that fine, it just weakens your argument.

[TFC07]

Nice try grasping at straws. They asked for the money because it was a one time Canadian cultural event (100th anniversary) and they wanted to celebrate it. If the truth be told I don't think the CFL was expecting to get as much government money as they did but luckily for them the governments were sympatico and thought it was a good idea as well. A lot of that money went to the cross-Canada promotional train (as I posted earlier)

You already had the breakdown posted from where much of the revenues came from. If you want to ignore that fine, it just weakens your argument.

CFL asks feds for $12M in Grey Cup funding

Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/cfl-asks-feds-for-12m-in-grey-cup-funding/article4328323/

CFL does in fact ask money to help run Grey Cup. In this case, they asked for $12 million to host Toronto Grey Cup. So really, they got less what they originally asked for.

[Joe MacCarthy]

If Argos and CFL are so profitable to Toronto, then how come they can't get their own stadium or threaten Toronto to contribute money to their stadium?

Ok then why can't TFC? They're owned by a multimillion dollar corporation and play in a city owned structure why can't they get their own?

Reality is no one really cares about Argos despite being winning team who have recently won Grey Cup. I find it funny how people outside of GTA are defending Argos (rare to find someone from Toronto defending Argos) and act like soccer isn't more popular than CFL in Toronto.

If TFC are all that popular how come nobody watches them on TV? Surely people from Toronto watch TV.

I'm going to give you an admittedly goofy hypothetical situation for you to ponder. What do you think would happen to TFC if the EPL thought Toronto was a good market and they would like to place a team there? Think about it.

[TFC07]

B.C. government budget includes $2.7 million for 2014 Grey Cup, but will it come to pass?

Source: http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/cfl-55-yard-line/b-c-government-budget-includes-2-7-million-120249881.html

I wonder how much federal government is going to contribute to 2014 Grey Cup.

[TFC07]

Ok then why can't TFC? They're owned by a multimillion dollar corporation and play in a city owned structure why can't they get their own?

MLSE did contribute money to BMO field (somewhere close to $20 million). City and government aren't going to build a stadium just for one event than tear it down afterwards. They needed someone to use it afterwards, which MLSE saw an opportunity there. It's good business from their part to take advantage especially after investing into North American soccer which isn't most stable investment out there.

If TFC are all that popular how come nobody watches them on TV? Surely people from Toronto watch TV.

I'm going to give you an admittedly goofy hypothetical situation for you to ponder. What do you think would happen to TFC if the EPL thought Toronto was a good market and they would like to place a team there? Think about it.

Well, losing teams don't get much interest. If winning TFC team still struggle to get people to games and have bad TV ratings, then you will have a point.

You still haven't explain to me why Argos can't get people to their games despite being a winning team.

To answer your last question: nothing because it would be impossible and stupid like NFL coming to Toronto. lol

[Joe MacCarthy]

Exactly what is your point? And how is it relevant to the fact you don't want the Argos at BMO? We are getting way off topic here because it's clear you don't have a history of this and are googling anything to support whatever it is you're trying to prove.

[Joe MacCarthy]

You still haven't explain to me why Argos can't get people to their games despite being a winning team.

I can't explain it that's the problem. And when people do try to explain it or give reasons why they think it happens, people from Toronto feel they are being insulted.

And you're winning record theory is BS. True sports fans go watch their team through thick and thin. You just don't want to admit that the Argos have the same size fanbase as this mythical mass of soccer fans in Toronto. And the conundrum is also while Argos get the same (actually better) live attendance as TFC (in a facility ill suited to them), the Argos TV audience is 7 times higher.

The difference between us is that you think if they built a 50k stadium and TFC had a winning record they would fill it. Because of the marketplace and changing sports landscape, I doubt the Argos will ever go above 35k again (maybe even 30k) and I think even less of TFCs prospects. The honeymoon is over.

[Joe MacCarthy]

To answer your last question: nothing because it would be impossible and stupid like NFL coming to Toronto. lol

At least we agree on something

[TFC07]

Exactly what is your point? And how is it relevant to the fact you don't want the Argos at BMO? We are getting way off topic here because it's clear you don't have a history of this and are googling anything to support whatever it is you're trying to prove.

No, you don't have understand history of this issue, politics and state of Argos in Toronto. I am googling to post "facts" since you don't believe or agree what I have said on this thread.

MLSE is looking ways to expand BMO field without paying much. This is one of the option, but we all know it will be impossible to get government funding to fund MLSE project.

City of Toronto is broke and Mayor Ford known to be cheap. Toronto has far more important issues (like transit) to worry about than Argos. Plus, with election coming up, who knows who will become mayor by end the year.

Provincial government: I highly doubt they care enough to help out Argos or have money to do so. Like City of Toronto, they got a lot more issues (like transit) to worry about and there might be possible election sometime this year (minority government)

Federal government: If they have said no to other cities (like Quebec City) when came to financing on stadiums and arenas. It will be no different for Argos/Toronto.

[Joe MacCarthy]

No, you don't have understand history of this issue, politics and state of Argos in Toronto. I am googling to post "facts" since you don't believe or agree what I have said on this thread.

Yes, I do have understand history of this issue, if you've seen my posts elsewhere it is one of my main points of interest. I agree with everything you've just said in this post. I just have one question.

What the @#$% is your point? You don't want the Argos in BMO, I get it. I'm just trying to tell you why it might happen.

[TFC07]

I can't explain it that's the problem. And when people do try to explain it or give reasons why they think it happens, people from Toronto feel they are being insulted.

And you're winning record theory is BS. True sports fans go watch their team through thick and thin. You just don't want to admit that the Argos have the same size fanbase as this mythical mass of soccer fans in Toronto. And the conundrum is also while Argos get the same (actually better) live attendance as TFC (in a facility ill suited to them), the Argos TV audience is 7 times higher.

The difference between us is that you think if they built a 50k stadium and TFC had a winning record they would fill it. Because of the marketplace and changing sports landscape, I doubt the Argos will ever go above 35k again (maybe even 30k) and I think even less of TFCs prospects. The honeymoon is over.

Who has more potential in this city averaging 30K between TFC or Argos? Which sport is more popular between soccer and football in Toronto? Just looking at Toronto and it's surrounding landscape and their large immigrant population, I would say soccer. There's a reason why TFC is worth $120 million (making them one of richest soccer club in Canada and USA) despite lack of on-field results. Soccer market in Toronto is huge and money could be made here if things are done right (which MLSE has failed to do so).

[Joe MacCarthy]

You talk about the soccer market being huge but you have to distinguish that from TFC same as the football market and the Argos. There are a lot of both soccer (EPL et al) and football fans (NFL) in Toronto that will not give either TFC or Argos the time of day. And I doubt that either the Argos or TFC are going to change anybody's mind anytime soon. What will entice new soccer fans to go to TFC games when they haven't already with the spectacle of being the new kid on the block and people taking them for a test drive.

And why do people not go to Argo games in larger numbers when we know interest is there with large TV numbers? I don't have the answer, if I did I'd be a consultant and make big bucks.

And who is a better marketer than MLSE? Who could do a better job marketing and trying to grow that franchise. I can't think of anybody off hand. Yes, I know about the litany of losers they provide but for success off the field/ice, few can match them. TFC fans are pissed because they are not being catered to as they once were and they might be in for some unwelcome change.

[Trillium]

Just because I can deal within logic rather than pie-in-the-sky schemes, that doesn't mean I'm in favour of anything.

You jumped to massive conclusions based on my response to your Lamport pipe dream. Please stop doing that.

So are you for Argos and TFC doing a ground share... yes or no ?

[Trillium]

It might make your argument more convincing if you got the guy's name right. If you don't even know that much I find it hard to take anything you say seriously.

Heck Joe... I always thought John Basset had a higher profile as an owner, but at least if the name was right you would apparently think the argument was more convincing...good on you.

My apologies to Mr. Braley.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Heck Joe... I always thought John Basset had a higher profile as an owner,

Apparently, can't get that one right either, it's Bassett. You need a researcher in the worst way.

[Trillium]

That's the problem with these soccer zealot guys like Trillium, they can't deal with reality.

I think I can speak for Rudi and almost everybody else here, no one wants the Argos to go to BMO. And that includes me and probably the Argos as well. The problem is, it seems to be the only viable solution available right now. I suppose there might be some who would want the Argos to go to BMO if it would provide the necessary upgrades to make BMO a top notch facility but that of course comes at a price, and I don't mean financial.

Trillium, it looks like you've googled a few things and have hastily come to the conclusion that Lamport would be satisfactory. As you may or may not know, well I guess you do know because you posted there a few days ago, I have a long running thread called New Canadian stadiums, plug, plug.

I have probably read more stuff about the possibility of expanding Lamport than anybody. I still don't know if it is possible. It's not comparable to Montreal and if it was possible it is a very tight squeeze. Here is a post from someone at the skyscraper stadium forum who gave an explanation and took some photos showing a first hand experience.

Thought I would include this photo and caption

The trees in the right of this picture are actually on somebody's lawn. The west grandstand cannot be expanded.

Why not post the overlay imagery from the skyscraper photos.... it shows that save for one spot there is lots of land to expand the seating at the stadium, with an emphasis on public transit etc. you do not need parking indeed you could run shuttles from CNE grounds.

The new Lansdowne in Ottawa will have under 1500 parking spots for a =20k stadium and a major shopping concourse, they still do not have parking plan, but it will most likely include shuttle buses from major government parking lots at Vincent Massey Park at the corner of Baseline and Riverside...a considerable distance from the stadium.

What ever happens ... if Argos go to a ground share with TFC you are probably killing two teams instead of maintaining one and hoping for rescue plan for a second pro sports franchise.

I do not live in Toronto ... I go to games at the National Soccer Stadium it works for me driving in from Eastern Ontario, I would be much less prone to go if the field was plastic and the site lines distanced due to reconfiguartion for CFL football.

[Joe MacCarthy]

So are you for Argos and TFC doing a ground share... yes or no ?

Tell me how anyone can answer that when we know nothing. We've heard rumblings from MLSE about doing it, we've heard announcements from Braley (note the spelling) about building a stadium. York and to a lesser extent U of T have yet to be eliminated. We don't know anything and until we get some answers the whole point is moot.

[Joe MacCarthy]

What ever happens ... if Argos go to a ground share with TFC you are probably killing two teams instead of maintaining one and hoping for rescue plan for a second pro sports franchise. I go to games at the National Soccer Stadium it works for me driving in from Eastern Ontario, I would be much less prone to go if the field was plastic and the site lines distanced due to reconfiguartion for CFL football.

First, regarding Lamport, I think anything is possible but this one would be difficult. Regarding the grounds share if that will kill both teams, in your mind, it doesn't say much for their fanbases does it?

Just out of curiosity, this National Soccer Stadium about which you keep wanting to manipulate the term, how many NT games did it host last year. How many games did TFC play at BMO? Just curious.

There you go again with the plastic lie. It has never been stated that would happen, in fact pronouncements have been made to the contrary by MLSE officials, but you keep trying to hoodwink us and we'll just play along.

What I find strange is the other fella blames dwindling attendance on a losing record, I blame it on turf. TFC had much better attendance when they played on FieldTurf, I think the TFC purists are staying away because they don't like the grass installation.

[TFC07]

You talk about the soccer market being huge but you have to distinguish that from TFC same as the football market and the Argos. There are a lot of both soccer (EPL et al) and football fans (NFL) in Toronto that will not give either TFC or Argos the time of day. And I doubt that either the Argos or TFC are going to change anybody's mind anytime soon. What will entice new soccer fans to go to TFC games when they haven't already with the spectacle of being the new kid on the block and people taking them for a test drive.

And why do people not go to Argo games in larger numbers when we know interest is there with large TV numbers? I don't have the answer, if I did I'd be a consultant and make big bucks.

And who is a better marketer than MLSE? Who could do a better job marketing and trying to grow that franchise. I can't think of anybody off hand. Yes, I know about the litany of losers they provide but for success off the field/ice, few can match them. TFC fans are pissed because they are not being catered to as they once were and they might be in for some unwelcome change.

Winning or signing a major superstar player.

What if MLSE don't buy Argos in the end? Would it safe to say Argos are done for good?

TFC fans are pissed because BMO field would no longer be soccer stadium which will lose hurt soccer atmosphere.

You're obviously way out of touch why TFC/soccer fans are so against Argos moving in.

[Joe MacCarthy]

You're obviously way out of touch why TFC/soccer fans are so against Argos moving in.

I guess I am, and here I thought everybody wanted the Argos to share. Silly me.

[finchster]

And why do people not go to Argo games in larger numbers when we know interest is there with large TV numbers? I don't have the answer, if I did I'd be a consultant and make big bucks..

It's simple Joe, Skydome sucks and it has no atmosphere for crowds 20-30k. Is it any coincidence that Montreal turned it around when they got out of the Olympic stadium and into something smaller to create a better atmosphere and game? Creating an enjoyable game atmosphere is very important, with HD tv it's almost better to watch a game at home. The game day experience needs to be great these days.

I will preface this by saying I DON'T want the Argos to move to BMO

But I think if the Argos move to BMO it will do two things, make the game day experience less enjoyable for TFC fans while giving the Argos long term stability which will undoubtedly effect the popularity of TFC in Toronto.