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Trillium

Loss of the National Football Stadium

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Even Toronto media are saying Argos is a dying team. This isn't just us soccer fans online saying this, but even media reporting it.
Yes, if you've been reading this thread, that's already been established. The question is why and what motives do they have about saying this when the evidence is to the contrary. The Toronto Grey Cup made between 10 and 15 million dollars, two to three times the normal Grey Cup profit. Where did all those people come from to support the local events and make them profitable? They didn't all come from Saskatchewan, some locals must have attended the events. Same with the TV ratings, when they drew a million viewers vs Hamilton were none of them from Toronto?

The Toronto centric national media have been reporting on the demise of the Argos and the rise of the NFL for over 20 years, we've already talked about this earlier in the thread.

That's great if you want the Argos to die, but if you think that will help TFC, good luck with that. Karma's a *****.

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So the Argos go down last year and they are dying but TFC goes down in attendance four years in a row and they're not? Interesting logic you've got there! You can't make a correlation of the Argos attendance declining, look at the numbers, they're all over the place, good and bad. The RC is a detriment to the Argos not a strength, how many people do you think TFC would draw there in a regular season?

Do you have proof that the Argos give out lots of free tickets throughout the season? Unless things have changed Braley doesn't do the comp thing. The previous ownership C and S did and Braley did the well publicized school kid comp day during the preseason, but Braley builds his business the hard way (like in BC).

Typical gutless Jose. Once again I find you picking and choosing certain parts of a persons post and ignoring the rest of it. I'm not surprised you failed to mention the most crucial part of his post, the part about TFC's horrible on field results.

You have obviously failed to see logic here. Argos despite being a championship team, their attendance still dropped. Look at last year's attendance after winning Grey Cup. Why did their attendance dropped?

TFC have been losing since day 1. If TFC were good team and their attendance was declining, then you would have a point here.

So comparing Argos to TFC attendance in the end is pointless in this case.

I don't know exact number of tickets Argos give up, but the point is they do give out tickets for free or very cheap at least.

He didn't fail to see anything. He's just gutless like that.

Proof?

See? He did it again.

Edited by Macksam

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I know my posts hit home with you because you always have the same personal response. I might consider it if it was from someone I respected like a few others in this thread, but seeing as it's you, I don't. Next time, read the whole thread and then maybe respond to the topic instead of your usual Joe hate.

Make all the excuses you want, there are people here who gleefully think if the Argos are dead it will help TFC. Anytime a city loses a franchise it lessens civic pride, TFC won't prosper from an Argo demise.

Just for the sake of the argument (which is totally irrelevant) in 2008 the Argos were 4-14 and 2009 3-15, yet they still drew fairly well. The Leafs have sucked for nearly 40 years, but it doesn't seem to affect them. Maybe TFCs fanbase isn't as loyal as you think. I know the Argos isn't, their numbers are all over the place.

Don't hate me Macky kid, don't hate me :)

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I know my posts hit home with you because you always have the same personal response. I might consider it if it was from someone I respected like a few others in this thread, but seeing as it's you, I don't. Next time, read the whole thread and then maybe respond to the topic instead of your usual Joe hate.

Make all the excuses you want, there are people here who gleefully think if the Argos are dead it will help TFC. Anytime a city loses a franchise it lessens civic pride, TFC won't prosper from an Argo demise.

Just for the sake of the argument (which is totally irrelevant) in 2008 the Argos were 4-14 and 2009 3-15, yet they still drew fairly well. The Leafs have sucked for nearly 40 years, but it doesn't seem to affect them. Maybe TFCs fanbase isn't as loyal as you think. I know the Argos isn't, their numbers are all over the place.

Don't hate me Macky kid, don't hate me :)

They don't. I just don't like seeing someone only responding to points that seemingly favour his argument.

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I can back up everything I say, with external sources, I expect others to do the same and not spread misinformation. When I say my opinion I make sure to say that it's JMO. How often are you going to do the name calling and not talk about the issues being discussed? Read the thread young fellow.

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Yes, if you've been reading this thread, that's already been established. The question is why and what motives do they have about saying this when the evidence is to the contrary. The Toronto Grey Cup made between 10 and 15 million dollars, two to three times the normal Grey Cup profit. Where did all those people come from to support the local events and make them profitable? They didn't all come from Saskatchewan, some locals must have attended the events. Same with the TV ratings, when they drew a million viewers vs Hamilton were none of them from Toronto?

The Toronto centric national media have been reporting on the demise of the Argos and the rise of the NFL for over 20 years, we've already talked about this earlier in the thread.

That's great if you want the Argos to die, but if you think that will help TFC, good luck with that. Karma's a *****.

It's great the Grey Cup made money, but the team itself is losing money...unless everyone in the media is lying about that.

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It's great the Grey Cup made money, but the team itself is losing money...unless everyone in the media is lying about that.
I agree with you but we have no true idea of what the losses might be. I've seen big numbers for the losses (3 million/yr) but why would the Argos be losing so much more money than anyone else as all the other CFL teams (save Hamilton) are profitable and the stadium rent deal probably isn't too bad. Under the previous C and S ownership it was a sweetheart deal and they couldn't see beyond their noses after U of T screwing them and that led to the bad situation we now have.

If you been following the other threads about Braley you know the losses are nothing to him. He's a billionaire, makes money with the Lions and if it is that simple then the Grey Cup profits from BC and Toronto have covered any losses he has accrued with Toronto. That's a pretty simplistic point on my part and I have no proof of any of it.

Richard Peddie (formerly MLSE) stated on PTS that MLSE two years ago were considering buying the Argos but figured they would only make a million dollar/yr profit. That wasn't enough for them but with the new CFL TV contract and the demise of the NFL prospects the Argos are looking more attractive. Pretty simple math these days in the CFL, if you can draw 24k you'll make money, probably break even at 22k.

Also keep in my mind Braley is rich enough, has the political, entertainment and construction contacts and is just crazy enough to build his own stadium. That's the last thing MLSE wants, competition in the venue market.

Edited by Joe MacCarthy

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Yes, if you've been reading this thread, that's already been established. The question is why and what motives do they have about saying this when the evidence is to the contrary. The Toronto Grey Cup made between 10 and 15 million dollars, two to three times the normal Grey Cup profit. Where did all those people come from to support the local events and make them profitable? They didn't all come from Saskatchewan, some locals must have attended the events. Same with the TV ratings, when they drew a million viewers vs Hamilton were none of them from Toronto?

The Toronto centric national media have been reporting on the demise of the Argos and the rise of the NFL for over 20 years, we've already talked about this earlier in the thread.

That's great if you want the Argos to die, but if you think that will help TFC, good luck with that. Karma's a *****.

Doesn't Grey Cup get government funding to cover the costs to host it? lol

$9.5 million from the federal and provincial governments to celebrate the game. The Ministry of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages gave $5 million while Tourism Ontario spent $4.5 million.

Source: http://www.thestar.com/sports/2012/11/27/grey_cup_argonauts_owner_david_braley_set_for_up_to_10_million_in_profits_sources.html

$9.5 million given to Argos to host Toronto Grey Cup. No wonder it made a profit of $10-15 million dollars. lol

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It's great the Grey Cup made money, but the team itself is losing money...unless everyone in the media is lying about that.

It didn't make money. That Toronto Grey Cup receive $9.5 million dollars from Federal and Provincial government. Argos are currently losing $6 million a year which isn't that bad compare to 5-10 years ago. I guess that has to do with TV contract from TSN.

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It didn't make money. That Toronto Grey Cup receive $9.5 million dollars from Federal and Provincial government. Argos are currently losing $6 million a year which isn't that bad compare to 5-10 years ago. I guess that has to do with TV contract from TSN.
Nobody has any idea of the validity of the losses and nobody was covering 6- 10 million dollar losses 10 years ago. In 2003 they had liabilities of 20 million when it went into receivership and even then the receiver's report said many parties have shown interest in purchasing the Argos. That to me would indicate some business value.

the government money went toward free events for the public during the week-long festival leading up to the game (including the cross Canada train - JM). “Any public funds the festival has received via the CFL have been used to finance free-to-the-public activities and zones which would not otherwise have been staged

The CFL received the money from the federal and provincial government agencies and channeled a portion to the Argos. How much went to the team is not clear and neither the league nor the Argos would say how the split worked. The league said it would explain how the money was spent to the government agencies who gave it to the league. “We have a commitment to give the government a full accounting when everything is done.”

Maychak said the team — which loses about $3 million a year — would make a substantial amount from the Grey Cup.

“The Argos will make significant money from this game,” Maychak said. “They sold out, they keep the revenue from the tickets, and they will make a big profit.”

Besides earning revenue from ticket sales and sponsorships to the Grey Cup festival, the Argos also generated money through ticket sales to a gala dinner, the league’s player awards, and several beer gardens, Albrecht said.

The Argos’ Grey Cup organizing committee sold roughly $14 million worth of tickets to the game, including 100 luxury suites that sold for $20,000 apiece, a source told the Star. The committee also sold at least $3 million worth of corporate sponsorships for the accompanying Grey Cup festival. As many as 30 companies such as Nissan, Telus and Scotiabank paid as much as $500,000 apiece to build buzz about their brands through ties to the Grey Cup festival.

All told, the Grey Cup organizing committee generated revenue of more than $17 million.

I'm trying to find the substantiation that the musical performers are provided free of charge to the Grey Cup. That cost is born by either the artist (for the exposure) or the record company IIRC and thus not an additional expense to the Grey Cup committee.

Edited by Joe MacCarthy

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It didn't make money. That Toronto Grey Cup receive $9.5 million dollars from Federal and Provincial government. Argos are currently losing $6 million a year which isn't that bad compare to 5-10 years ago. I guess that has to do with TV contract from TSN.

Well with the new TV deal the Argos will get at least 2 million more a year from TV. I think if the Argos could get their own place to play they would be stable financially (at least break even).

I am really glad we have another CFL vs Soccer thread on this board! I can't wait for the regular actor(s) to make their appearance and talk down to everyone!

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Maybe we can put it into a little perspective, up until the 90s the CFL was one of the big dogs on the sporting landscape and for numerous reasons hit the skids.

Bingo! I think that's a great point Joe. And it might be one of the things that contributed to the media pile-on, and maybe is still holding the CFL back a little bit.

My view is that it is ok to accept that the league's role and status has changed, probably permanent. I personally don't see any shame in being a regional sport with an outpost in Toronto. It's like the hosers that get cranky when they realize that in the US hockey is really only prevalent in the northern midwest, upper New York State and New England. It's ok that hockey is only popular in certain spots, and that the other big city locales are there to shore up the US TV rights. Pro soccer too is a largely urban phenomenon. We don't have to pretend that it is major league. I'm all for banging the CFL drum but I don't see the harm in admitting that we're maybe the third drummer in the Canadian sports marching band, and that when the band plays in Toronto there may be a few others that we have to line up behind.

And Laszlo, I agree with your post as well...and your point about my analysis of Hamilton's chances in a non-Toronto CFL are definitely speculative, albeit reasoned speculation but you have a point it is a leap. ;)

I am really glad we have another CFL vs Soccer thread on this board! I can't wait for the regular actor(s) to make their appearance and talk down to everyone!

I gotta say I've never understood this line of commentary on an internet messageboard - this "it's all speculation" or "I can't believe we're talking about this" or "not this again" sorta stuff. Particularly on a Canadian soccer messageboard. What do you want to talk about? Everything we chat about is speculation. Our recent performances? The next match? More potential lineups? Borjan's apartment in Turkey? Melanie Booth's career prospects?

Back in the day I think we spent upwards of eight months discussing why Nevio Pizzolitto and Jeff Clarke couldn't get work permits in the UK and our heads exploded every time some Canadian went on a trial arranged by their grand uncle in Serbia and discussing soccer Sim City posts about whether Saskatoon-Regina could support two teams in a Canadian premier league and whether Peterborough could promote from the second division.

It might be a little snarky, but this discussion is actually pretty interesting, relevant, well-informed, and consists of solid views from two opposing sides. Compared to that ****, this is a discussion about rocket science amongst ph.D.s.

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It might be a little snarky, but this discussion is actually pretty interesting, relevant, well-informed, and consists of solid views from two opposing sides. Compared to that ****, this is a discussion about rocket science amongst ph.D.s.

But Joe keeps seeing it all as a communist conspiracy, the blocking of North American football from the National Soccer Stadium for him it is akin to the left wing civic opposition to his political star Mayor Rob Ford.

Truth is, former Senator Bailey is at a point in his life where some of his toys for boys ( Toronto Argos ) are like old jet ski's at the cottage you just don't get thrill anymore from them and cost of upkeep or buying new one is not worth it on the rewards scale.

Bailey is dumping the Argos in the near future .. he will sell out the BC Lions ( maybe keep few shares to get his Directors box ) and scale down his public involvement in civic life in Canada ( remember Joe he dropped being a Senator ), this will create problems for the Argos as sports entity in downtown Toronto, and though there are suburbs where stadia could be built ... success in Vaughan or Brampton or NewMarket is not assured for a CFL franchise.

Bailey would gladly have his construction folks build a stadium but he wont pay for it, and his inside connections in Ottawa are likely being severed in terms of getting fed money when the Conservatives will be in difficult budget position heading into the next election.

If Hamilton could play in Guelph with 13k stadia ..perhaps Argos can go into Lamport and get its seating bumped up with a Meccano upper deck on the west and east sides, with a south end bumped up... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamport_Stadium

A look at google maps https://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=116437091623842236156.000470518922e1accb5a4 compare the space at Lamport to the National Soccer Stadium footprint and you can see the Argos could move to Lamport which is very similar to the Montreal Alouettes McGill stadium.

https://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=116437091623842236156.000470518922e1accb5a4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percival_Molson_Memorial_Stadium

Edited by Trillium

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If Hamilton could play in Guelph with 13k stadia ..perhaps Argos can go into Lamport and get its seating bumped up with a Meccano upper deck on the west and east sides, with a south end bumped up... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamport_Stadium

A look at google maps https://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=116437091623842236156.000470518922e1accb5a4 compare the space at Lamport to the National Soccer Stadium footprint and you can see the Argos could move to Lamport which is very similar to the Montreal Alouettes McGill stadium.

https://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=116437091623842236156.000470518922e1accb5a4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percival_Molson_Memorial_Stadium

So your alternative to the Argos moving to a city-owned stadium that needs tens of millions in upgrades just to accommodate the CFL is for the Argos to move to a smaller, nearby city-owned stadium on a much smaller plot of land that would need even bigger upgrades to accommodate the CFL?

Lamport Stadium will never be a viable option for the Argos, TFC, or any team trying to exude an air of professionalism. Especially with BMO Field literally a ten-minute walk away.

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I gotta say I've never understood this line of commentary on an internet messageboard - this "it's all speculation" or "I can't believe we're talking about this" or "not this again" sorta stuff. Particularly on a Canadian soccer messageboard. What do you want to talk about? Everything we chat about is speculation. Our recent performances? The next match? More potential lineups? Borjan's apartment in Turkey? Melanie Booth's career prospects?

Back in the day I think we spent upwards of eight months discussing why Nevio Pizzolitto and Jeff Clarke couldn't get work permits in the UK and our heads exploded every time some Canadian went on a trial arranged by their grand uncle in Serbia and discussing soccer Sim City posts about whether Saskatoon-Regina could support two teams in a Canadian premier league and whether Peterborough could promote from the second division.

It might be a little snarky, but this discussion is actually pretty interesting, relevant, well-informed, and consists of solid views from two opposing sides. Compared to that ****, this is a discussion about rocket science amongst ph.D.s.

I'm not against having CFL discussion Marc, I have participated numerous times in different threads. I am labeled by some as 'Pro CFL' despite not attending a game since 2008 and spending a lot of money on the Caps and MNT. My comment was directed at a single individual who hasn't made an appearance yet but no doubt will.

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and you can see the Argos could move to Lamport which is very similar to the Montreal Alouettes McGill stadium.

You completely lose legitimacy when you make a claim like this. Percival Molson Memorial Stadium in Montreal is a great small stadium, not the tin can we call our National Soccer Stadium/BMO Stadium.

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Well with the new TV deal the Argos will get at least 2 million more a year from TV. I think if the Argos could get their own place to play they would be stable financially (at least break even).

But there's rumours that salary cap is going to raise and players would want more money. So it will offset extra TV money that CFL teams will be getting in the end.

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Nobody has any idea of the validity of the losses and nobody was covering 6- 10 million dollar losses 10 years ago. In 2003 they had liabilities of 20 million when it went into receivership and even then the receiver's report said many parties have shown interest in purchasing the Argos. That to me would indicate some business value.

the government money went toward free events for the public during the week-long festival leading up to the game (including the cross Canada train - JM). “Any public funds the festival has received via the CFL have been used to finance free-to-the-public activities and zones which would not otherwise have been staged

The CFL received the money from the federal and provincial government agencies and channeled a portion to the Argos. How much went to the team is not clear and neither the league nor the Argos would say how the split worked. The league said it would explain how the money was spent to the government agencies who gave it to the league. “We have a commitment to give the government a full accounting when everything is done.”

Maychak said the team — which loses about $3 million a year — would make a substantial amount from the Grey Cup.

“The Argos will make significant money from this game,” Maychak said. “They sold out, they keep the revenue from the tickets, and they will make a big profit.”

Besides earning revenue from ticket sales and sponsorships to the Grey Cup festival, the Argos also generated money through ticket sales to a gala dinner, the league’s player awards, and several beer gardens, Albrecht said.

The Argos’ Grey Cup organizing committee sold roughly $14 million worth of tickets to the game, including 100 luxury suites that sold for $20,000 apiece, a source told the Star. The committee also sold at least $3 million worth of corporate sponsorships for the accompanying Grey Cup festival. As many as 30 companies such as Nissan, Telus and Scotiabank paid as much as $500,000 apiece to build buzz about their brands through ties to the Grey Cup festival.

All told, the Grey Cup organizing committee generated revenue of more than $17 million.

I'm trying to find the substantiation that the musical performers are provided free of charge to the Grey Cup. That cost is born by either the artist (for the exposure) or the record company IIRC and thus not an additional expense to the Grey Cup committee.

Do you see MLS getting government money to host all-star events? CFL is either in bad financial state or they're bunch of con artists stealing taxpayer money to profit their own event. $17 million revenue, but yet, they get taxpayer money ($9.5 million). What a joke! No wonder Toronto Grey Cup was so profit, and now Toronto owner wants to sell the team after making huge profit from hosting Grey Cup.

Edited by TFC07

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quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Trillium viewpost-right.png

and you can see the Argos could move to Lamport which is very similar to the Montreal Alouettes McGill stadium.

You completely lose legitimacy when you make a claim like this. Percival Molson Memorial Stadium in Montreal is a great small stadium, not the tin can we call our National Soccer Stadium/BMO Stadium.

I suspect your still hung over I compared as you indicate in the quote.... Lamport ( no roof cement stadia ) to Molson stadium in Montreal ...look at the photos and you and you can see the similar nature of the stadiums, and the space is available at Lamport to expand its size ..in a downtown location just like in Montreal.

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So your alternative to the Argos moving to a city-owned stadium that needs tens of millions in upgrades just to accommodate the CFL is for the Argos to move to a smaller, nearby city-owned stadium on a much smaller plot of land that would need even bigger upgrades to accommodate the CFL?

Lamport Stadium will never be a viable option for the Argos, TFC, or any team trying to exude an air of professionalism. Especially with BMO Field literally a ten-minute walk away.

What does the proximity of the CNE grounds and the National Soccer Stadium have to do with viability of Lamport upgraded to handle more seats ?

If Montreal upped the Molson stadium to 25 k from 20K on a much more difficult site, why would modification and addition of seats from 9600 to 20k at Lamport be such a big issue.

The CFL fleid has 40 yards of end zones, based on a 36 inch seat that gives you on each side of the field lengthening ... 20 seats per row added X 30 rows is 1200 extra seats, then the south end zone at 75 yards wide give you 75 seats a row X 30 = 2,250 so you are up to 3,450 on top of 9,600 brings you to 13, 150 seats before adding seating on west side or east side of stadia, 110 yards length X 10 rows gives 1100 seats add 30 rows on west side and you have another 3300 seats , now your at 16,450 .... check out the number of rows at the National soccer stadium on the west its 19 + 27 in upper deck for 46 rows.

You introduced a term Rudi... "trying to exude an air of professionalism" ... a professional club would have business case that would let it build a stadium from its own resources, the Argos situation is they have no home some four years down the road and they need a saviour and it is not likely to be a move to the CNE grouds to play in the National Soccer Stadium unless MLSE really wants to alienate its core fan base.

Remember the city of Toronto owns Cenntenial stadium in Centenial park.. near Pearson airport lots of land, yes you would need to spend 50 million to 75 million for a stadia much like Saputo in Montreal but you only have eight home games a year for CFL football in a nine team league with a balanced schedule, the Argos have options that if they have to use civic, provincial and federal monies ... make more overall sense to the broader sporting community then ripping up a Soccer Specifc Stadium to make it mulit-use.

But Rudi if your in favour of Argos ground sharing with TFC why not come out and say that .. your willing to see the Argos move to the CNE site and play on the same turf as TFC.

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Do you see MLS getting government money to host all-star events? CFL is either in bad financial state or they're bunch of con artists stealing taxpayer money to profit their own event. $17 million revenue, but yet, they get taxpayer money ($9.5 million). What a joke! No wonder Toronto Grey Cup was so profit, and now Toronto owner wants to sell the team after making huge profit from hosting Grey Cup.

This post is a joke...

First off, the 2012 Grey Cup was not an all-star event. It was the 100th championship game of the only professional sporting league solely based in Canada. The CFL does not have an all-star game, nor does it ask for money for every Grey Cup. The reason they asked for money was to promote the game nation wide.

http://blogs.leaderpost.com/2011/03/23/cfl-media-statement-regarding-federal-funding/

Second, Grey Cups regularly generate over $100 million in economic activity each year in the cities they are held in, and this is no different in 2012. for the $5 million shelled out by the Feds and $4.5 million shelled out by the Ontario government, it created $133 million in gross activity, and $70 million in net activity for the province, including 795 jobs. This, from the City of Toronto website itself:

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2013/ed/bgrd/backgroundfile-58473.pdf

The 2013 Grey Cup brought in an estimated $123 million, the 2011 Grey Cup brought in an estimated $118 million, and the 2009 Grey Cup brought in an estimated $80 million.

How much does a national men's soccer team game bring in to Toronto's economy? I'm sure it's far less than $100 million....

I know folks here are upset about the Argos potentially moving into BMO field, but let's face the facts here. The CFL, and it's teams, has a much greater cultural signifance to this country than either the men's national team, or any of the 5 professional teams in the country right now. If national team games at BMO had been consistently sold out since it was built, then there could be an argument to "save the national football stadium", but they aren't.

If the city of Toronto wants to allow MLSE to buy the Argos, and rip up BMO, and let them play there, then so be it. If the Argos leave, that's $100 million+ in economic impact that is lost to the City / Province each Grey Cup...

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Truth is, former Senator Bailey is at a point in his life where some of his toys for boys ( Toronto Argos ) are like old jet ski's at the cottage you just don't get thrill anymore from them and cost of upkeep or buying new one is not worth it on the rewards scale.

Bailey is dumping the Argos in the near future .. he will sell out the BC Lions ( maybe keep few shares to get his Directors box ) and scale down his public involvement in civic life in Canada ( remember Joe he dropped being a Senator ), this will create problems for the Argos as sports entity in downtown Toronto, and though there are suburbs where stadia could be built ... success in Vaughan or Brampton or NewMarket is not assured for a CFL franchise.

Bailey would gladly have his construction folks build a stadium but he wont pay for it, and his inside connections in Ottawa are likely being severed in terms of getting fed money when the Conservatives will be in difficult budget position heading into the next election.

It might make your argument more convincing if you got the guy's name right. If you don't even know that much I find it hard to take anything you say seriously.

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