Loss of the National Football Stadium

[Joe MacCarthy]

Re: Hamilton, I might be wrong but I think the Ti-Cats could have a hard time without a regional rival - particular one as hated as Toronto. Hamilton is culturally distinct from Toronto but is part and parcel of the Toronto media market. I think not having a CFL team in Toronto could effectively eliminate regional CFL coverage in the general media. In terms of print The Spectator is pretty dominant, but in terms of radio and TV it's very Toronto-focused - Hamilton's radio stations are really micro-marketed and CHCH's local coverage is surprisingly outstanding but its perception after a decade of being dicked around is, locally at least, low-rent.

That point is something I'm interested in as a former newsboy. The, for lack of better words decentralizing and de-professionalizing of news and information IMO makes Toronto as the media centre less relevant on an ongoing basis.

At one time here at Vs we used to look forward to the scribblings of a few select soccer writers ie Norm Da Costa and others whose names my dementia won't allow me to recall. Now we are more apt to get quicker but perhaps less substantiated news from blogs and forums. The fifth estate has changed and what is left under the guise of "professional" read... paid journalism is more likely to cover the cult of celebrity/infotainment beat.

My favourite news site used to be Canoe.ca. It is now just a celebrity obsessed portal of poop purveying. I get more news and knowledge from forums where I can try and interpret what is the truth from the fantasy.

My point is in there somewhere. I guess what I am trying to say is that "professional" media has become less and less relevant.

[lazlo_80]

This is going to come off probably as a tad negative but here it goes...

Frankly, Canadian soccer supporters questioning the stability of the CFL and CFL teams is laughable. Hamilton gets a new stadium next year and sold out all of this year despite playing in Guelph. CFL on TSN numbers are in a universe beyond anything Soccer in Canada achieves, heck Ottawa is joining the league again too. It feels like people are already ringing the death knell of the argos (and looping the ti-cats in with them) based on nothing. Yeah, the dome sucks for the Argos. They'll figure it out. They aren't going anywhere.

In some ways I feel like this all feels really really petty. Canadian soccer (if you want to wave that flag) finally gets it's own stadium and now we act like we're beyond a piddly league like the CFL? I don't understand. half the reason Ottawa is getting an NASL team is because the CFL stadium they're building, same goes with the rumors of a team in Hamilton.

I'm not saying lets tear up the grass and worship our CFL overlords, I'm just thinking there's alot of panic and conjecture based on really weird generalizations about the state of the CFL here.

[squizz1402635577]

Everything would have been so much better for everybody if the Argos had, at some point in the last 20 years, made Varsity their permanent home.

[finchster]

Everything would have been so much better for everybody if the Argos had, at some point in the last 20 years, made Varsity their permanent home.

Keep Rob Ford in power long enough so he can figure out a way to get the Argos their own stadium in the suburbs amirite?

[Joe MacCarthy]

In some ways I feel like this all feels really really petty. Canadian soccer (if you want to wave that flag) finally gets it's own stadium and now we act like we're beyond a piddly league like the CFL? I don't understand. half the reason Ottawa is getting an NASL team is because the CFL stadium they're building, same goes with the rumors of a team in Hamilton.

And that's where some of the synergies come in to play.

In case there are still a few out there who want to denigrate the CFL, just a few years ago it had the sixth highest average game attendance of any league in the world, ahead of Serie A, Nippon Professional Baseball and ironically MLS. CFL draws higher ratings on ESPN 2 than does MLS and in Canada average game TV ratings are near 7 times higher than MLS.

To those who see it as the enemy, you should hitch a wagon to that horse. And to those of us who like both, cheers!

[Joe MacCarthy]

Everything would have been so much better for everybody if the Argos had, at some point in the last 20 years, made Varsity their permanent home.

As you know, it might have happened but the Argos got screwed and then they proceeded to make the situation worse by screwing York.

[Trillium]

Ping! The light bulb just came on to how misleading and disingenuous the first post of this thread was. To call it the National Soccer Stadium instead of TFC's stadium is IMO a really cheap and lame way of trying to illicit sympathy from fans other than TFC supporters. For shame!

Seriously, how many NT games were played there this year? Do we need two hands to count? I honestly don't know the number.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMO_Field

The stadium hosted the 2007 FIFA U-20 World Cup, at which time it was known as the National Soccer Stadium. It also hosted the MLS Cup 2010on November 21, 2010.

With a total costs of $62.9 million (all figures are in Canadian dollars) to build the stadium^[22] ($72.8 million including the land), financial contributions came from multiple sources.^[23] The Canadian Federal Government contributed $27 million, the Government of Ontario's added an additional $8 million, and the City of Toronto paid $9.8 million and contributed the land for the project (valued at $10 million),^[24] while retaining ownership of the stadium.

Seems to me the Feds kicking in 27 million almost half construction costs with Ontario investing 8 million makes the stadium having been paid for by all taxpayers in Canada and Ontario and Toronto, the land valuation is somewhat suspect since it was Canadian National Exhibition land from times long ago so its modern day valuation as exhibtion space would not be ten million.

So ... based on skin in the game from taxpayers, why should taxpayers outside of Toronto not be concerned with possible conversions / multi-sport use versus single sport stadium for soccer ?

All multi purpose stadia ..those with tracks or mix used North American football and FIFA soccer suffer from concessions in terms of design and fan experience, the National Soccer stadium naming rights were bought by MLSE for ten million ( they kicked in eight million for stadia construction ) and then resold to BMO the naming rights for 27 million for ten years ...net profit of 19 million and remember MLSE paid ten million for the franchise so net profit 9 million with out selling a ticket or playing a game.

Can you expect the TFC hard core supporters to successfully convince MLSE to not make a bean counter business decision ?

That is why I think the Voyageurs need to step up and argue that the National Soccer Stadium remain soccer specific versus conversion to a CFL pitch.

Of course if the conversion does happen it will leave Montreal Impact in 'Saputo stadium as the only soccer specific pro-stadium for MLS in Canada.

[TFC07]

Argos and CFL in general isn't really popular in GTA. Argos have been bleeding money for a while due to not owning their stadium and struggling to get fans (numbers are dropping) despite being a good team. If TFC ever becomes a good team then Argos presence in highly competitive sports market is going to decline even more. Apathy is there no matter how Argos perform (that to me sounds like they're dead team). Moving back Exhibition place isn't going to bring respectability back in GTA for Argos. It's too late for that! MLSE owning Argos could save them, but at same time, it can tick off a lot of hardcore Argos/CFL supporters who hate MLSE with passion.

But that being said, CFL and Canadian soccer do need each other to build outdoor stadiums across Canada. So it will be interesting to see how CSA responds to new BMO field.

[Joe MacCarthy]

That is why I think the Voyageurs need to step up and argue that the National Soccer Stadium remain soccer specific versus conversion to a CFL pitch.

Do us a favour, cut the baloney that we've all cottoned on to, and just call it BMO. The charade is over.

[Joe MacCarthy]

If TFC ever becomes a good team then Argos presence in highly competitive sports market is going to decline even more. Apathy is there no matter how Argos perform (that to me sounds like they're dead team). Moving back Exhibition place isn't going to bring respectability back in GTA for Argos. It's too late for that! MLSE owning Argos could save them, but at same time, it can tick off a lot of hardcore Argos/CFL supporters who hate MLSE with passion.

I'm not the brightest bulb on the chandelier but I don't know how the Argos can be dying when they outdraw TFC every year except one (by a handful of people). What does that make TFC? Moribund?

And the Argos are at the mercy of Rogers giving them the worst possible schedule and a media (aside from TSN who aren't in Rogers lap) intent on ignoring them for what seems nefarious reasons.

Argo Attendance

TFC Attendance

I'm not trying to get personal with anybody (except Trollium), I'm just trying to dispel some of the myths. The Argos seem to be a crazy mix of perception over fact. The late Toronto sports writer Jim Hunt brought up this analogy many years ago, "The CFL is like porn. Nobody admits to watching it (GTA), but the viewing numbers are terrific."

We can have our soccer and football too, they don't need to be adversaries and it doesn't make a lot of sense that the two cellar dwellers of public perception would fight each other. You never hear about MLSE's dirty little secret regarding how miniscule the Raptors TV ratings are.

[hamiltonfan]

Excellent post Joe, I completely agree. Know idea where some of us V's/TFC fans get the idea the CFL/Argos are about to go belly up,coming off iggnorant to say the lease. Massive new TSN deal for the CFL as well...

[Joe MacCarthy]

MLSE owning Argos could save them, but at same time, it can tick off a lot of hardcore Argos/CFL supporters who hate MLSE with passion.

I don't think so, that seems to be more like some of the soccer supporters who will cut off their nose to spite their face, about this issue. Sure lots of people don't like MLSE but their legendary status of turning franchises into money makers and subsequent losers on the field has its attraction to long suffering Argo fans who have worried about the fate of their franchise.

Just so many unknowns and quirks to this story.. If MLSE buys the Argos, they can't run it into the ground because that won't look good to the NFL, they have to make a success of it. Even if they tried, I would think Braley would put in a clause of first right to buy back to prevent them from killing the team.

[Trillium]

Do us a favour, cut the baloney that we've all cottoned on to, and just call it BMO. The charade is over.

If you cannot make rationale comment its okay I understand your self confessed as to not being the brightest light.

Apparently one of the TFC season ticket / Red Patch guys has put up a site.

http://www.noargosatbmo.ca/content/

So clearly the hard core soccer fans for TFC see MLSE being willing to hurt TFC to garner more money by bringing in the Argos.

Joe you may like CFL football, good on you but others want to see a Soccer Specific Stadium remain in Toronto, if the Argos are so popular they outdraw TFC why can they not get private and public money together and put up a stadium for CFL football in Toronto ?

A 20 K stadium in the burbs ... could be done for under 80 million plus land.

[Marc]

Joe - that's a great point on the new media angle. I'd peg the Ti-Cats' average fan as a meat-and-potatoes media consumer, but it is possible that the role of regional media is not as important these days.

Frankly, Canadian soccer supporters questioning the stability of the CFL and CFL teams is laughable. Hamilton gets a new stadium next year and sold out all of this year despite playing in Guelph. CFL on TSN numbers are in a universe beyond anything Soccer in Canada achieves, heck Ottawa is joining the league again too. It feels like people are already ringing the death knell of the argos (and looping the ti-cats in with them) based on nothing. Yeah, the dome sucks for the Argos. They'll figure it out. They aren't going anywhere.

In some ways I feel like this all feels really really petty. Canadian soccer (if you want to wave that flag) finally gets it's own stadium and now we act like we're beyond a piddly league like the CFL? I don't understand. half the reason Ottawa is getting an NASL team is because the CFL stadium they're building, same goes with the rumors of a team in Hamilton.

I don't particularly agree with the anti-stadium-sharing crowd but the above post misses the point .

(First of all, yes Hamilton sold out in Guelph - capacity of 13 000. About half Hamilton's new stadium capacity - with deals on tickets. This isn't Caley Thistle playing in Aberdeen. Guelph is in the Ti-Cat catchment area 45 minutes from Hamilton - if, like me, you drive old man style. They've tried hard locally to spin this as a show of force. But let's get real here. Anything less than a sellout would have been a disaster.)

Back on track, Canadian soccer supporters are not questioning the viability of the CFL. They are questioning the viability of the CFL in Toronto. And it is all about context, including...

...what needs to be understood is that many of these soccer supporters grew up with a CFL that was as stable as an Italian parliament. They aren't fans of the CFL or the sport so they can't be expected to understand that rise of the game in Québec, the re-emergence of football fan culture out west or the increasingly young demographic that is following CFL outside of the GTA.

...given the team's recent history, the Toronto market, the NFL presence/demand/fake demand, the Argos' sometimes iffy attendance reporting, and the upcoming lack of a stadium, questioning the future of the Argos is legit. (If this were soccer we'd consider that turkey cooked). It is completely conceivable that a CFL exists without Toronto. So conceivable that it has been discussed in the media. Will it happen? I'd never ever bet on it. But discussing it on a messageboard is really not out there by any stretch.

My view is that sharing is doable and, in the Toronto context at least, the risk is more to the Argos. But it is easy to understand why people - and people here, of all places - aren't so hot on it. And that's where pettiness comes in. It's not about being better, but it is about soccer's experience with football.

And now word on the street is that soccer fans could find Toronto football on their doorstep soon. Do they want to take her back? How did she treat you while you were dating? Is she going to leave you for your older brother again like last time, two weeks before you were about to put that downpayment on house? Yeah, true, she got screwed once too, so... Anyway, I'm pro CFL but lets admit football's track record of working with soccer has been pretty bad.

Previous history aside, sharing is a legit issue for both sides, proven best by the Argos' own lack of public enthusiasm about the prospect. It requires a tenant hierarchy. Right now, Toronto is the only stadium in the country where soccer is at the top of that hierarchy. Is that something soccer fans want to give up? What are they getting out of it? Plus, in what other sport is the type, quality and appearance of a playing field as integral to the fan experience as soccer? Do TFC fans want another competing interest in-house? BMO is no gem but our only other soccer-specific grass stadium is practically built out of mechano.

For some reason I grew up with a whack of Mormon friends as a kid and you'd never find a nicer, friendlier, shirt-off-their-backs people. But they were so insecure about it all that these kids just couldn't stop pointing out things that were supposed to be convincing to outsiders of how great their church was, like other people you might know who were Mormons, famous people who were Mormons, how big their church was, how much money they raise, how many converts they get a year, how they're growing an no other churches are, how great Utah is...and these were kids! It was bananas. (One guy I saw in 2010 for the first time in maybe ten years and he proceeds to tell me how Mitt Romney saved the 2002 Olympics WTF)

I've always found CFL fans are similar. If I had to guess which fan would save me from a burning stadium it'd be the CFL fan no question. They're the salt of the earth of the sports-fan world but geez they're ever insecure about it all. Look at the new stadiums! Look at the attendance! Look at the ratings! It is big in Laval! Huge in Saskatchewan! Look at the players who went to NFL! It's more exciting than NFL! Our balls are bigger! Pinball stayed in Toronto after he retired...wow! Give the basketball fans some credit, they don't freakin' care what the ratings are. They just like the sport and they're ok being third or fourth or even fifth on the sports list, in Toronto at least.

Joe Mac's quote about the CFL being like porn is bang on. Given Canadian sports, our culture, and the league's secondary nature to the NFL, there's a certain insecurity to being a CFL fan. More people watch it than will ever admit. And those who do admit to watching it exaggerate how important it is to everyone else. As with most things, the answer is in the middle.

Longest most useless post ever. But ain't deleting it now after all that typing. Sorry!

[Joe MacCarthy]

others want to see a Soccer Specific Stadium remain in Toronto

That's the first bit of truth you've posted on this subject. BMO was never meant to be a soccer only stadium, it's in the minutes of city council. How that got changed is murky and somewhat sinister. I fully accept that the Argos are at fault for their present circumstance (ie York) but there were other shenanigans by other players as well.

Just cut the BS, you don't want the Argos at BMO, fine, just don't couch that under some National Soccer Stadium malarkey.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Longest most useless post ever. But ain't deleting it now after all that typing. Sorry!

Great post, a few things I don't agree with which we might get into later, but bang on.

Ah what the hell, I'll take one on now. I think your opinion of CFL fans being somewhat insecure is very perceptive.

Maybe we can put it into a little perspective, up until the 90s the CFL was one of the big dogs on the sporting landscape and for numerous reasons hit the skids. What hurt the most to me as a newsperson was the piling on by sports "writers" in denigrating the CFL. It was akin to kicking somebody when they're down, four on one or picking the wings off a butterfly. It was needless, relentless, and unnecessary. It still bothers me to this day and I will admit I am defensive about it. It's been a long hard journey back to respectability but the CFL did it and if some of us get a little overzealous in our defense, this is part of the reason why.

And I have much the same attitude towards Canadian soccer. Too many ill or non informed folk (many with auld country allegiances) making disparaging remarks about Canadian soccer.

If we're crap fine, but tell me why we're crap and don't tell me it's because we're Canadian. That's crap!

[Joe MacCarthy]

What I really like seeing now is CFL people fighting back and going after the elephant in the room. The commissioner has made public pronouncements about the myths that the CFL is "minor league" especially when it come to its place as a sports property.

Here is a great post by Bob Young, Ti-Cats owner (kicking ass and taking names , it's about time) There are some small factual errors but it is the intent and message of the post that is important so please focus on that. And you know what, much of this applies to Canadian soccer as well - JM

Canada is Canadian Football

December 11, 2013

I grew up in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. But I’ve now spent the majority of my life in countries other than Canada. Instead of becoming less Canadian this has made me more appreciative of things Canadian than any of the resident Canadians I know. The best single example of what I know about Canada that many Canadians don’t seem to understand is Canadian Football.

The 101 year old Grey Cup Championship is the most watched sporting event in Canada year in, year out.

The oldest continuously operating North American “Football” (of any sort) club is the Canadian Hamilton Tiger-Cats, founded in 1869. According to Wikipedia it is the 55th oldest football club anywhere, including Europe.

The typical CFL football game is watched by three to four times as many Canadians as watch any US football game.

Canadian high schools, colleges and junior football leagues are all played under Canadian Football’s three down rules.

So why is there even a debate on this topic? Because of probably the second most Canadian cultural identifier - namely Canada’s odd habit of undervaluing our own culture. So Canadian Football cannot be any good simply because it has been developed, is played, and is enjoyed by Canadians. This sad instinct has major Canadian corporate leaders somehow thinking that because Canada’s Championship was played in Regina Saskatchewan it could not be world class.

But it is precisely that fully a quarter of the population of the capital of one of Canada’s 10 provinces came out for a Canadian Football game in sub-zero weather, and a third of the country tuned in on TV, that makes it world class.

So why does this effort to bring the American sport of four down NFL football to Canada persist? It is a direct result of this lack of appreciation of Canadian culture by Canadians that is to blame. How else do you explain great Canadian leaders like Mr Paul Godfrey bragging about his failed thirty year crusade to bring the NFL to Toronto?

Or why would a great Canadian corporation like Rogers Communications Inc. spend millions promoting a US competitor over a more popular Canadian institution? Particularly given that Rogers’ prospers thanks to Canadian Government rules (CRTC regulations) that give it, as a Canadian supplier, great competitive advantages over foreign competitors. The oddest bit is that Rogers’s own marketing folks know, but don’t tell their bosses that, outside of downtown Toronto (Bay Street? - JM) no one likes Rogers’ using its clout to damage a Canadian institution we all love.

These folks are not less patriotic than you and me. They care every bit as much about the success of Canada and Canadians. They are simply making the same mistake that millions of Canadians have made before them. They simply see things as being more valuable, more worthwhile, or maybe just “cooler” if societies other than Canada’s also value these things.

No Canadian musician is considered successful in Canada if they have not been successful in the United States. It is the rare Canadian cultural icon who becomes successful in Canada without foreign endorsement.

So how does the Canadian Football League prevent the NFL from wanting to put a NFL team in Canada? The CFL has to do two things, first it must convince Canadian leaders such as Mr Paul Godfrey and Canadian corporations such as Rogers, of the value of our hundred and fifty year old Canadian cultural institution.

And secondly we must partner with the National Football League in an organized and mutually profitable way. It is already true that CFL coaches and general managers, whether Canadian or American have many friends among their counterparts in the NFL teams. The CFL league office has more in common with the NFL league office (and vice versa) than they do with any other institution on the planet. After all, the CFL and NFL are the only two “gridiron” football leagues.

The National Football league is a lot like the Canadian Football League, being a collection of teams who banded together to form an institution dedicated to their collective success. Our leagues are among the most successful cooperatives in the history of business anywhere. We have more incentive to cooperate with each other than any two businesses you could name.

The Canadian Football League is stronger than ever. We are now able to do more to support athletic achievement in Canada, we are doing more to support the charities we all care about, and more to celebrate this great country. I’m personally very proud to be a small cog, along with my free market capitalist colleagues, in the recent progress of our league in our contributions to Canada and Canadian culture.

Canada is Canadian Football. And unlike Canadian Football which is well appreciated coast to coast across our remarkable country, Canadians need to learn to celebrate Canada and things Canadian, whether or not the rest of the world even notices.

[TFC07]

I'm not the brightest bulb on the chandelier but I don't know how the Argos can be dying when they outdraw TFC every year except one (by a handful of people). What does that make TFC? Moribund?

And the Argos are at the mercy of Rogers giving them the worst possible schedule and a media (aside from TSN who aren't in Rogers lap) intent on ignoring them for what seems nefarious reasons.

Argo Attendance

TFC Attendance

I'm not trying to get personal with anybody (except Trollium), I'm just trying to dispel some of the myths. The Argos seem to be a crazy mix of perception over fact. The late Toronto sports writer Jim Hunt brought up this analogy many years ago, "The CFL is like porn. Nobody admits to watching it (GTA), but the viewing numbers are terrific."

We can have our soccer and football too, they don't need to be adversaries and it doesn't make a lot of sense that the two cellar dwellers of public perception would fight each other. You never hear about MLSE's dirty little secret regarding how miniscule the Raptors TV ratings are.

You're proving my point. Their attendance (remember, they give out a lot of free tickets) is declining. Also, keep in mind that TFC have been losing since day 1 unlike Argos who have been playing very well. Not only that, but Argos play at bigger stadium with more seats than TFC.

TFC manages to get 18,000-20,000 despite being awful club since day 1. That is more impressive number than Argos who's a winning team aren't pulling in many people as they should.

That to me sounds more like a dying club. If TFC were a winning club and still struggle getting people to their games, then you would have people saying the same thing.

[TFC07]

One more thing to add: MLSE is simply using Argos to get government money to get them pay for BMO field. If MLSE really cared about Argos, then they would have bought them already (they had plenty of chances in the past). If Argos and CFL can't see they're being used by MLSE, then it will be their fault when MLSE kill Argo brand in the long term by allowing them to buy the Argos.

Argos need to build their own stadium where they control their schedule and able to make money. No one is going to buy Argos unless they have their own home in the end. Argos ownership need to spend some cash on a new stadium if they want to sell Argos with nice profit.

[lazlo_80]

Marc, great post. You're right, it's fair to question the viability of the Argos in Toronto, what frustrates me is some of the points made with very little support for why the league is failing or how "Hamilton might not survive without a local rival". I am one of your mormon friends when it comes to the CFL, however, I'm the same way with Canadian soccer too. Dollars to doughnuts I probably have to spend more time justifying my love for Canadian Soccer to my friends and family than the CFL, which is pretty sad considering they're all canadian too.

Your point about how the CFL has treated Canadian Soccer in the past is very true. And if I came off like a CFL apologist that wasn't the intent. I was just trying to note that alot of the analysis on the state of the argos/cfl/ti-cats seems to not be based in fact.

[Joe MacCarthy]

You're proving my point. Their attendance (remember, they give out a lot of free tickets) is declining. Also, keep in mind that TFC have been losing since day 1 unlike Argos who have been playing very well. Not only that, but Argos play at bigger stadium with more seats than TFC.

TFC manages to get 18,000-20,000 despite being awful club since day 1. That is more impressive number than Argos who's a winning team aren't pulling in many people as they should.

That to me sounds more like a dying club. If TFC were a winning club and still struggle getting people to their games, then you would have people saying the same thing.

So the Argos go down last year and they are dying but TFC goes down in attendance four years in a row and they're not? Interesting logic you've got there! You can't make a correlation of the Argos attendance declining, look at the numbers, they're all over the place, good and bad. The RC is a detriment to the Argos not a strength, how many people do you think TFC would draw there in a regular season?

Do you have proof that the Argos give out lots of free tickets throughout the season? Unless things have changed Braley doesn't do the comp thing. The previous ownership C and S did and Braley did the well publicized school kid comp day during the preseason, but Braley builds his business the hard way (like in BC).

[Joe MacCarthy]

it will be their fault when MLSE kill Argo brand in the long term by allowing them to buy the Argos.

They can't kill them, that's the beauty of it.

[Joe MacCarthy]

very little support for why the league is failing

Your point about how the CFL has treated Canadian Soccer in the past is very true.

The league is failing? That's news to me (and TSN as well). How has the CFL treated Canadian soccer badly? If you mean individual owners musing about potential soccer franchises, I don't see that as being treated badly. If pro soccer was viable at the Tier 2 level there wouldn't be an issue. Is it an issue in Ottawa? No. Hamilton? Who knows but we do know that Bob Young has owned a soccer franchise so I would be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt if he sees a soccer team in Hamilton's future.

[TFC07]

So the Argos go down last year and they are dying but TFC goes down in attendance four years in a row and they're not? Interesting logic you've got there! You can't make a correlation of the Argos attendance declining, look at the numbers, they're all over the place, good and bad. The RC is a detriment to the Argos not a strength, how many people do you think TFC would draw there in a regular season?

Do you have proof that the Argos give out lots of free tickets throughout the season? Unless things have changed Braley doesn't do the comp thing. The previous ownership C and S did and Braley did the well publicized school kid comp day during the preseason, but Braley builds his business the hard way (like in BC).

You have obviously failed to see logic here. Argos despite being a championship team, their attendance still dropped. Look at last year's attendance after winning Grey Cup. Why did their attendance dropped?

TFC have been losing since day 1. If TFC were good team and their attendance was declining, then you would have a point here.

So comparing Argos to TFC attendance in the end is pointless in this case.

I don't know exact number of tickets Argos give up, but the point is they do give out tickets for free or very cheap at least.

[Joe MacCarthy]

but the point is they do give out tickets for free or very cheap at least.

Proof?