CBC: Man charged with lighting flare during Whitecaps game

[RJB]

Yeah, you are right. I forgot about the fans!

Why do we need flares at soccer games? So they've said no flares, and some fool got arrested for doing something he shouldn't have: That's usually what happens when you break rules involving fire in a large crowd.

Maybe supporters in favour of flares, and against this arrest can explain why they are important to their and others enjoyment of the game.

[alberta white]

***MOD*** Speaking of Fun Police, we're received a complaint about some of the comments contained in this post. Let's keep this fairly civilized and let's not resort to petty regionalism and personal insults. Thanks for getting things back on track and let's have a positive discussion. Fun Police Out.

Personally I'm not a big fan of flares and I don't think they have any place at BC Place stadium. If David Pearson lit the flare, I hope he gets the book thrown at him.

EDIT: I mean if he's guilty.

I respectfully apologise to all Flare owning Donkeys everywhere.

When paired with a finely cut safari Jacket they look absolutely fabulous!

[alberta white]

I don't think every international soccer tradition needs to be imported here. If you feel the need to light off industrial pyrotechnics to celebrate your team, then please do so in the comfort of your own living room.

Aye! imagine importing the English Meat Pie at halftime and pairing it with a Punnet of Poutine?

They'd be carrying about a third of the crowd out feet first. Mind you, what a beautiful way to Go!

[Blue and White Army]

You make me smile, Grizzly. I miss back when football was fun in Vancouver. We need to go for beers again the next time I'm in Montreal.

[Grizzly]

Why do we need flares at soccer games? So they've said no flares, and some fool got arrested for doing something he shouldn't have: That's usually what happens when you break rules involving fire in a large crowd.

Maybe supporters in favour of flares, and against this arrest can explain why they are important to their and others enjoyment of the game.

Because they help create a great atmosphere and look cool. And atmosphere and fan involvement is one of the greatest things about soccer and one of the things that put it above many other sports particularly the commercial American ones where you are supposed to sit down and be docile until told to shout some lame slogan by the announcer or video scoreboard. We have let the business interests ruin the NHL experience, we should not let them ruin the soccer experience. And flare and smoke increase the ambiance in the stadium. If you compare either in MLS or anywhere else in the world those stadiums where the fans use pyro with those that don't the atmosphere is universally better in those that do. It is at least part of the reason why you can watch a Romanian league game of two teams you never heard of before with 6000 fans in the stadium and the atmosphere is still better than a match between 2 top EPL clubs with 50 000 in attendance. Or even in hockey compare the atmosphere of a European arena with ultras and smoke that seats 5000 with that of an NHL game.

Additionally the danger is way overblown, in all of my years of going to soccer matches both in Europe and in Canada I can't recall ever seeing anyone injured by flares other than by security or police bashing people in the name of protecting us from the pyro. And yes there is a place in the stadium for families and people who just want to sit and watch the game but it shouldn't be the whole stadium like it is in Vancouver (though I will give the Curva some props for doing their best to change it - the Southsiders or what has become of them on the other hand share a lot of the blame for this). And when there is smoke or flares in the UM section in Montreal the whole stadium atmosphere gets more intense not just our section. Countless people have told me that even if our section is too crazy for them to sit in they love the atmosphere it brings to the stadium especially the pyro. It also seems to end up in a lot of the tv footage, newspaper photos and marketing videos despite the fact that it is still prohibited at the stadium and the club will ban anyone they can identify using it.

Pyro is part of soccer history and culture and should remain part of the game. I travel away with Impact a lot and the atmosphere and supporter groups are pretty lame at most MLS stadiums with a very small number of exceptions. If that is what a live soccer experience is then one may as well watch the game on tv.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Because they help create a great atmosphere and look cool. And atmosphere and fan involvement is one of the greatest things about soccer and one of the things that put it above many other sports particularly the commercial American ones where you are supposed to sit down and be docile until told to shout some lame slogan by the announcer or video scoreboard. We have let the business interests ruin the NHL experience, we should not let them ruin the soccer experience. And flare and smoke increase the ambiance in the stadium. If you compare either in MLS or anywhere else in the world those stadiums where the fans use pyro with those that don't the atmosphere is universally better in those that do. It is at least part of the reason why you can watch a Romanian league game of two teams you never heard of before with 6000 fans in the stadium and the atmosphere is still better than a match between 2 top EPL clubs with 50 000 in attendance. Or even in hockey compare the atmosphere of a European arena with ultras and smoke that seats 5000 with that of an NHL game.

Additionally the danger is way overblown, in all of my years of going to soccer matches both in Europe and in Canada I can't recall ever seeing anyone injured by flares other than by security or police bashing people in the name of protecting us from the pyro. And yes there is a place in the stadium for families and people who just want to sit and watch the game but it shouldn't be the whole stadium like it is in Vancouver (though I will give the Curva some props for doing their best to change it - the Southsiders or what has become of them on the other hand share a lot of the blame for this). And when there is smoke or flares in the UM section in Montreal the whole stadium atmosphere gets more intense not just our section. Countless people have told me that even if our section is too crazy for them to sit in they love the atmosphere it brings to the stadium especially the pyro. It also seems to end up in a lot of the tv footage, newspaper photos and marketing videos despite the fact that it is still prohibited at the stadium and the club will ban anyone they can identify using it.

Pyro is part of soccer history and culture and should remain part of the game. I travel away with Impact a lot and the atmosphere and supporter groups are pretty lame at most MLS stadiums with a very small number of exceptions. If that is what a live soccer experience is then one may as well watch the game on tv.

A thirteen year old was killed by one in a San Jose-Corinthians half a year ago in Bolivia. I remember a man dying in an Espanyol match quite a few years ago, I think I might have actually been in the stadium. The list is long and to deny it is dishonest.

This post is textbook lame idiocy. If someone wants to jack off in public or watch their children burn, do so, it is their every right. But to come here and lie barefaced because you get off on something is pathetic and what is worse, grandstanding, and on a chat board. Textbook trolling. Get a life.

Pyrotechnics are NOT necessarily part of fan support, any more than rushing a fence and crushing people to death. Any more than throwing piss bags at rival fans. The vast majority of fans think they are NOT cool, while the vast majority think singing or chanting is. One 99.9% don´t do ever, the other maybe 98% do at least occasionally.

Now if someone gets off on bright lights, great, go stand on the high speed tracks at night and wait for the express. Those lights are really bright.

Some people don't have a life so have to play the big man on a friggin chat board, lying to defend something proven to be extremely dangerous, with a fairly long history of harming individuals, usually people not holding them, like kids. And which if they had cared to be honest you could have researched in a second.

Those writing the same rules that say there should be stoppage time and three subs ban them explicitly.They are obviously idiots. Thankfully these are the idiots, FIFA and the CSA and MLS, that do not pay attention to geniuses like you.

Now I understand why you play the way you do, stubby fingers been burned off by flares.

BTW, I have been immersed in more pyrotechnics in a single evening than probably all of you put together in your lifetimes, Nit de Sant Joan in Cataluña, or thehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXRmMIS4Oaw, though they don't do even 5% of what I used to see, and participants are trained for control. Still, the risks are huge, people do get seriously injured even when they've spent all year preparing.

If you insist they are so cool, anyone, stick em in your plywood guitar for all we care to make a decent sound for once, but stop lying to show off on this board.

[Grizzly]

A thirteen year old was killed by one in a San Jose-Corinthians half a year ago in Bolivia. I remember a man dying in an Espanyol match quite a few years ago, I think I might have actually been in the stadium. The list is long and to deny it is dishonest.

This post is textbook lame idiocy. If someone wants to jack off in public or watch their children burn, do so, it is their every right. But to come here and lie barefaced because you get off on something is pathetic and what is worse, grandstanding, and on a chat board. Textbook trolling. Get a life.

Pyrotechnics are NOT necessarily part of fan support, any more than rushing a fence and crushing people to death. Any more than throwing piss bags at rival fans. The vast majority of fans think they are NOT cool, while the vast majority think singing or chanting is. One 99.9% don´t do ever, the other maybe 98% do at least occasionally.

Now if someone gets off on bright lights, great, go stand on the high speed tracks at night and wait for the express. Those lights are really bright.

Some people don't have a life so have to play the big man on a friggin chat board, lying to defend something proven to be extremely dangerous, with a fairly long history of harming individuals, usually people not holding them, like kids. And which if they had cared to be honest you could have researched in a second.

Those writing the same rules that say there should be stoppage time and three subs ban them explicitly.They are obviously idiots. Thankfully these are the idiots, FIFA and the CSA and MLS, that do not pay attention to geniuses like you.

Now I understand why you play the way you do, stubby fingers been burned off by flares.

BTW, I have been immersed in more pyrotechnics in a single evening than probably all of you put together in your lifetimes, Nit de Sant Joan in Cataluña, or thehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXRmMIS4Oaw, though they don't do even 5% of what I used to see, and participants are trained for control. Still, the risks are huge, people do get seriously injured even when they've spent all year preparing.

If you insist they are so cool, anyone, stick em in your plywood guitar for all we care to make a decent sound for once, but stop lying to show off on this board.

Talk about dishonesty. The list is not long. If you google flare deaths you will find about 4 in the last 30 years and they are all caused by flare guns or rockets like the type used by ships in distress to fire in the air that are purposely used as weapons by hooligans firing at opposing fans. And yes this type of rocket like flare is dangerous and can be used as a weapon and should not be allowed at games. They are dangerous not because of the fire aspect but because they are projectiles shot at high speed. There is video of the flare death at the Corinthians game and it is a projectile that is shot at the opposing fans that caused the death. The flare was shot at such velocity that it penetrated the victims skull. No one including myself is suggesting that this type of flare projectile should be tolerated at games nor have I seen any suggestion that the flare at the Caps game was anything other than a typical road flare of the type typically used for ambiance in stadiums. I have never seen this type of flare used in North America and while I have been at games in both Germany and Russia where shooting flares were used even they were never of the high powered version that were used in these incidents. And yes you know this already Jefferey and are being deliberately deceitful.

As to the rest of your post, wow. You really should seek some help. It is very interesting how such a large portion of the law and order/fun police advocates seem unable to debate this in any rational way and write bitter and angry posts on topics that have nothing to do with the one at hand.

[Grizzly]

For the sake of comparison, we should look at firework deaths compared to flare deaths. The US averages 4 fireworks deaths and over 9000 injuries per year: http://www.statisticbrain.com/firework-statistics/ Here are some statistics for other countries: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mor_dis_of_fir-mortality-discharge-of-firework Maybe the fun police should try to ban fireworks and close down all the festivals that use them such as the one Jefferey posted. Lets all live in a safe, sterile and boring world.

[youllneverwalkalone]

But back to the original point, and Mr. Impact you made me laugh out loud as the kids say, fire is not safe indoors -particular when the moron throws the flare under a seat (he was actually quoted as saying he thought it was a smoke bomb, which doesn't make me feel any better). If you are outdoors with a bucket of sand near by, knock your socks off.

Grizzly, when you and Devon head out for your beer, you can have an in-depth discussion of all the things that make Vancouver prudish. Make sure you get him to cover the part where the very Vancouver planning office where he works submarined the club's attempt to build its own outdoor stadium with no public funds.

[Trillium]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28012750@N06/2666093516/

For the Unamed Trialist...to relive your glory days of Pyro... ( how do you manage to live in the city with Fun Police ? ).

[Keano]

I bring my kids to the games. I and they love the flares, smoke bombs and everything else. We're not far away, either, in 127. These are not being shot into the crowd from pressure guns or lined up 100 of them in a row causing a stadium fire a la Fenerbace. I really don't think anyone has a problem with these. Maybe the fact that it's not a roofed stadium does make it seem safer who knows. This thread is full of bizarrely sudden and personal tantrums though.

[SteveBeau]

I'll keep in mind that if I don't like someone's opinion or stance on a subject, a good way of dealing with it is posting articles about their city and province's shortcomings..

[Ivanovski94]

For the sake of comparison, we should look at firework deaths compared to flare deaths. The US averages 4 fireworks deaths and over 9000 injuries per year: http://www.statisticbrain.com/firework-statistics/ Here are some statistics for other countries: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mor_dis_of_fir-mortality-discharge-of-firework Maybe the fun police should try to ban fireworks and close down all the festivals that use them such as the one Jefferey posted. Lets all live in a safe, sterile and boring world.

Gotta remember its cultural thing aswell. Most north americans and brits are down for the safety first approach which is good but others like south americans and continental europeans are more wild let it all out type. Im of the latter and i understand the concern but still think its overblown.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I'll keep in mind that if I don't like someone's opinion or stance on a subject, a good way of dealing with it is posting articles about their city and province's shortcomings..

That's a two way street. A basic safety issue in a city building brought about certain judgments about the people in the building. The original comment may actually be valid in a greater context, but I think you need to understand the macro factors at play before getting into that discussion.

The original comment was not an opinion or a stance, while the articles posted were factual in nature and perhaps explain certain differences between the two cities when it comes to attitudes toward public spaces, safety, and other matters.

[alberta white]

To some extent its all about respect. I have seen Plenty of UCL games over the years where Pyro is common on the continent. However the Reciprocating European fans base which travels to, say, Arsenal or Old Trafford tends to leave its Pyro at home... probably because customs would have a field day with it, but that's besides the point. European fans have become accustomed to the British been stuffy so don't bother.

Any way we Brits prefer to let lose Foxes and Chickens on the field for pre-match entertainment.

And I personally blame the Duke of Wellington in all of this for first for firing rockets at the French.

[Gordon]

A gaggle of testosterone fueled young men, copious alcohol consumption and roadside signal flares....what could possibly go wrong? :-)

[Unnamed Trialist]

A gaggle of testosterone fueled young men, copious alcohol consumption and roadside signal flares....what could possibly go wrong? :-)

Just the possible panic effect of someone dropping a flare or it lighting a banner could be deadly. One slip, even if not serious, could start a reaction or a rush. Get 25 people rushing away, a row and a half, and a very easy consequence is someone getting trampled. I saw babies at the Whitecaps game, as I did at Canada-Mexico in Seattle. A friend had his three year old with him at BC Place. These individuals are just flotsam for the flare supporters, they would be the first to be hurt and of course are the last people the flare supporters care about. Which is why they insist on turning supporter sections into ghetto sections, circle jerks.

One of the finest definitions of freedom of speech and its limitations was set by Oliver Wendell Holmes when he gave the example of yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre. Your freedom of speech ends there, not because of a real fire, but because you create a panic effect that can be deadly. A recent concert in Madrid with 4 deaths saw someone light flares or fireworks indoors and the fear factor causing a rush. The pyrotechnics did not hurt anyone, the rush did. Oddly enough, all teenage girls, the smallest and physically weakest people there.

So in a closed space where people cannot flee it is highly irresponsible and denying this is just lame and sad. You don't care, I do, and your telling me you want to have fun is meaningless to me. I was at the Caps with my 80 year old mom and I can honestly say I worry even about getting up and leaving at half time or afterwards with her as she is unstable and could fall. We sit and wait until folks have gone by. If a panic occurred near me, because one person slipped slightly with a flare, the first person to be affected would be the most vulnerable.

Everyone has a responsiblity to those people at games. Families have to be able to inspire their kids and kids have to have fun and feel that being at a stadium is a positive experience. Okay, I accept swearing because I swear at home and my folks did. I took my kid and nieces and nephews to the old Southside at Swangard and they loved it, it was safe and people were friendly and there were inspired by decent, funloving supporter culture. There was never any physical risk involved in their being there.

I have worked with flares by the way, mineral exploration in BC, Alaska, Yukon. I know what they are for, I've lit one to scare off grizzlies. I've had them boating. They are useful, but even in the outdoors are risky enough. Denying the risk and arguing in bogus fashion is sad and lame.

[Gordon]

Just the possible panic effect of someone dropping a flare or it lighting a banner could be deadly. One slip, even if not serious, could start a reaction or a rush. Get 25 people rushing away, a row and a half, and a very easy consequence is someone getting trampled. I saw babies at the Whitecaps game, as I did at Canada-Mexico in Seattle. A friend had his three year old with him at BC Place. These individuals are just flotsam for the flare supporters, they would be the first to be hurt and of course are the last people the flare supporters care about. Which is why they insist on turning supporter sections into ghetto sections, circle jerks.

One of the finest definitions of freedom of speech and its limitations was set by Oliver Wendell Holmes when he gave the example of yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre. Your freedom of speech ends there, not because of a real fire, but because you create a panic effect that can be deadly. A recent concert in Madrid with 4 deaths saw someone light flares or fireworks indoors and the fear factor causing a rush. The pyrotechnics did not hurt anyone, the rush did. Oddly enough, all teenage girls, the smallest and physically weakest people there.

So in a closed space where people cannot flee it is highly irresponsible and denying this is just lame and sad. You don't care, I do, and your telling me you want to have fun is meaningless to me. I was at the Caps with my 80 year old mom and I can honestly say I worry even about getting up and leaving at half time or afterwards with her as she is unstable and could fall. We sit and wait until folks have gone by. If a panic occurred near me, because one person slipped slightly with a flare, the first person to be affected would be the most vulnerable.

Everyone has a responsiblity to those people at games. Families have to be able to inspire their kids and kids have to have fun and feel that being at a stadium is a positive experience. Okay, I accept swearing because I swear at home and my folks did. I took my kid and nieces and nephews to the old Southside at Swangard and they loved it, it was safe and people were friendly and there were inspired by decent, funloving supporter culture. There was never any physical risk involved in their being there.

I have worked with flares by the way, mineral exploration in BC, Alaska, Yukon. I know what they are for, I've lit one to scare off grizzlies. I've had them boating. They are useful, but even in the outdoors are risky enough. Denying the risk and arguing in bogus fashion is sad and lame.

Thank you for your answer - and it is, I think, well reasoned opposition you put forward. (I have attempted to bold a sentence of your, not sure if it works as that sort of thing really isn't a strong suit for me) I just want to be sure that you, and others, understand that my statement that you responded to was meant to be facetious. I agree with you generally about flares - indoors or out a bad idea for any purpose other than what they are intended for. I had a few when I did a lot of winter travel, and the guidance as to safe use from the manufacturers are simply not able to be met in a stadium environment.

[Grizzly]

Just the possible panic effect of someone dropping a flare or it lighting a banner could be deadly. One slip, even if not serious, could start a reaction or a rush. Get 25 people rushing away, a row and a half, and a very easy consequence is someone getting trampled. I saw babies at the Whitecaps game, as I did at Canada-Mexico in Seattle. A friend had his three year old with him at BC Place. These individuals are just flotsam for the flare supporters, they would be the first to be hurt and of course are the last people the flare supporters care about. Which is why they insist on turning supporter sections into ghetto sections, circle jerks.

One of the finest definitions of freedom of speech and its limitations was set by Oliver Wendell Holmes when he gave the example of yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre. Your freedom of speech ends there, not because of a real fire, but because you create a panic effect that can be deadly. A recent concert in Madrid with 4 deaths saw someone light flares or fireworks indoors and the fear factor causing a rush. The pyrotechnics did not hurt anyone, the rush did. Oddly enough, all teenage girls, the smallest and physically weakest people there.

So in a closed space where people cannot flee it is highly irresponsible and denying this is just lame and sad. You don't care, I do, and your telling me you want to have fun is meaningless to me. I was at the Caps with my 80 year old mom and I can honestly say I worry even about getting up and leaving at half time or afterwards with her as she is unstable and could fall. We sit and wait until folks have gone by. If a panic occurred near me, because one person slipped slightly with a flare, the first person to be affected would be the most vulnerable.

Everyone has a responsiblity to those people at games. Families have to be able to inspire their kids and kids have to have fun and feel that being at a stadium is a positive experience. Okay, I accept swearing because I swear at home and my folks did. I took my kid and nieces and nephews to the old Southside at Swangard and they loved it, it was safe and people were friendly and there were inspired by decent, funloving supporter culture. There was never any physical risk involved in their being there.

I have worked with flares by the way, mineral exploration in BC, Alaska, Yukon. I know what they are for, I've lit one to scare off grizzlies. I've had them boating. They are useful, but even in the outdoors are risky enough. Denying the risk and arguing in bogus fashion is sad and lame.

There is such a thing as supporters sections where pyro is expected and sections where it is absolutely safe for young children and elderly people. You have attended soccer matches and know this. Stop trying to be deliberately deceitful and presenting fallacious arguments.

[El Hombre]

Just the possible panic effect of someone dropping a flare or it lighting a banner could be deadly. One slip, even if not serious, could start a reaction or a rush. Get 25 people rushing away, a row and a half, and a very easy consequence is someone getting trampled. I saw babies at the Whitecaps game, as I did at Canada-Mexico in Seattle. A friend had his three year old with him at BC Place. These individuals are just flotsam for the flare supporters, they would be the first to be hurt and of course are the last people the flare supporters care about. Which is why they insist on turning supporter sections into ghetto sections, circle jerks.

One of the finest definitions of freedom of speech and its limitations was set by Oliver Wendell Holmes when he gave the example of yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre. Your freedom of speech ends there, not because of a real fire, but because you create a panic effect that can be deadly. A recent concert in Madrid with 4 deaths saw someone light flares or fireworks indoors and the fear factor causing a rush. The pyrotechnics did not hurt anyone, the rush did. Oddly enough, all teenage girls, the smallest and physically weakest people there.

So in a closed space where people cannot flee it is highly irresponsible and denying this is just lame and sad. You don't care, I do, and your telling me you want to have fun is meaningless to me. I was at the Caps with my 80 year old mom and I can honestly say I worry even about getting up and leaving at half time or afterwards with her as she is unstable and could fall. We sit and wait until folks have gone by. If a panic occurred near me, because one person slipped slightly with a flare, the first person to be affected would be the most vulnerable.

Everyone has a responsiblity to those people at games. Families have to be able to inspire their kids and kids have to have fun and feel that being at a stadium is a positive experience. Okay, I accept swearing because I swear at home and my folks did. I took my kid and nieces and nephews to the old Southside at Swangard and they loved it, it was safe and people were friendly and there were inspired by decent, funloving supporter culture. There was never any physical risk involved in their being there.

I have worked with flares by the way, mineral exploration in BC, Alaska, Yukon. I know what they are for, I've lit one to scare off grizzlies. I've had them boating. They are useful, but even in the outdoors are risky enough. Denying the risk and arguing in bogus fashion is sad and lame.

But, but, but....they look cool!

[Unnamed Trialist]

A "supporters section where pyro is expected", nice euphemism for middle aged urban men playing with matches. Here comes the MLS fire department with those damn water cannons.

[thescottc]

Because they help create a great atmosphere and look cool.

Oh what an atmosphere indeed:

http://www.boston.com/sports/blogs/bigshots/2009/05/a_flare_for_soccer_open_flames.html

[Blue and White Army]

At Swangard, the Southside had prominent sandwich boards announcing that it was an adult-oriented section. Taking a child (or elderly) person in there was not forbidden, but it was at the discretion of the adult guardian.

That has been lost with the move to BC Place. Signs at BC Place announce that the Southside has standing, chanting, flags and whatnot; but it is no longer for "adults".

I realize that last weekend's flare was not in the Southside, and that PavCo (the owners/operators of BC Place) never had any intention of permitting pyro anywhere in BC Place. However, having the *entire* stadium as one big family-friend entity (as COO Rachel Lewis seemed to explain on video to the CBC) seems like an unwise idea to me.

[tmcmurph]

"Til someone stupid with a flare gun burned the place to the ground".

Sorry but I just couldn't resist a classical reference

[Lord Bob]

If any of us had our vulnerable friends or family members coming to a soccer game with us I don't think we'd be damn fools enough to bring them into a section labeled "Supporters section: pyrotechnics will be used". We'd take them to a different section, because we are capable of rational thought.

If flares are deployed by organized supporters with knowledge, experience, and responsibility, the risks are minimized (not eliminated, of course; this is the real world, anything worth doing carries some element of risk). Make sure everyone knows what they're in for and there are no problems. Grizzly's right; with very few exceptions the Whitecaps have been supporters-lite since the beginning of the MLS era. Everything must be sanitized and lovely and half those in a supporters section must be allowed to stand up silently.